Oilpan4
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:27 am

New Mexico had a billion dollar surplus last year. They don't need to raise the gas tax to fix the roads.
If I thought actually paying more taxes would deliver more or better services I would be all for it.
Higher taxes deliver more bureaucracy, bigger more wasteful government, encourage fraud, waste and abuse such as no bid contracts and other cronyisms. Encourages dead end social engineering programs that reward bad behavior.
No thanks.
If the fuel taxes, vehicle registrations went into a roads only fund and only went to the roads. Then maybe.
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johnlocke
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:54 am

If you really want to be fair "road taxes" ought to be figured as Miles * Weight^2 * some tax constant. Road damage increases with the square of the weight of the vehicle. Nearly all states have mandatory vehicle inspections which verify the mileage on the vehicle so that is easily enforced. Weight of the vehicle is a known factor. Add an administrative fee if you like. Motorcycles get a pass, Semi-trucks get walloped, and everybody else is somewhere in the middle. Miles driven could be based on an estimate of miles driven in the past years plus a correction based of the record of the last inspection.
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Dooglas
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:26 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:54 am
If you really want to be fair "road taxes" ought to be figured as Miles * Weight^2 * some tax constant. Road damage increases with the square of the weight of the vehicle. Nearly all states have mandatory vehicle inspections which verify the mileage on the vehicle so that is easily enforced. Weight of the vehicle is a known factor. Add an administrative fee if you like. Motorcycles get a pass, Semi-trucks get walloped, and everybody else is somewhere in the middle. Miles driven could be based on an estimate of miles driven in the past years plus a correction based of the record of the last inspection.
I agree with your observation but aren't we already most of the way there. By definition, gas and diesel vehicles already pay fuel tax proportional to the miles they drive. Long haul trucks already pay weight-mile taxes. The two things missing are adjusting vehicle registration fees (including those for EVs) proportional to vehicle weight. That would undoubtedly be a very unpopular idea in the rural West - including New Mexico - due to the common practice of using trucks as passenger cars. But, as you say, fair is fair. And adjusting EV road maintenance fees to mileage. That last one is probably small potatoes as very few EVs are driving particularly long miles, but (again as you say) it could be done.

Now, around here, we are actually coming very close to vehicles carrying an electronic monitor which could determine mileage driven, times of day driven (i.e. rush hours), and mileage driven in congested areas in and around large cities. This is a reaction to the incredible cost of maintaining and upgrading road and bridge infrastructure around large cities. Those who don't often use those facilities rightly enough think that those who do should pay most of the costs.
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jjeff
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:44 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:54 am
If you really want to be fair "road taxes" ought to be figured as Miles * Weight^2 * some tax constant. Road damage increases with the square of the weight of the vehicle. Nearly all states have mandatory vehicle inspections which verify the mileage on the vehicle so that is easily enforced. Weight of the vehicle is a known factor. Add an administrative fee if you like. Motorcycles get a pass, Semi-trucks get walloped, and everybody else is somewhere in the middle. Miles driven could be based on an estimate of miles driven in the past years plus a correction based of the record of the last inspection.
Our state "use to" have yearly inspections for emissions control and it worked somewhat good other than the fact if you were poor(low reported income) you could get a pass on a vehicle that failed the emissions test(which IMO is totally wrong, the poor would probably be driving cars in need of repair that belched out toxic emissions and should be fixed while more affluent were driving new cars probably with the newest cleanest emission standards) but anyway it was scrapped and we no longer have such tests, not sure how many other states do. Like I said before, relying on honesty for reporting mileage is just ripe for cheating, heck we do that for reporting insurance to get new tabs and I'm guessing 20?? percent of vehicles on the road lack insurance :(
Not sure how much I'd like big brother spying on me, tracking everywhere I go but I agree, it might be the fairest method of tracking who drives where and how much to charge them.
At one time the gas tax was a pretty good easy way to pay for the roads but many states, mine included people squeal like a stuffed pig at any mention of raising the gas tax, so the vast majority comes out of the general fund, one of the least fair ways to pay for road repair :(
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johnlocke
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:51 am

jjeff wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:44 pm
johnlocke wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:54 am
If you really want to be fair "road taxes" ought to be figured as Miles * Weight^2 * some tax constant. Road damage increases with the square of the weight of the vehicle. Nearly all states have mandatory vehicle inspections which verify the mileage on the vehicle so that is easily enforced. Weight of the vehicle is a known factor. Add an administrative fee if you like. Motorcycles get a pass, Semi-trucks get walloped, and everybody else is somewhere in the middle. Miles driven could be based on an estimate of miles driven in the past years plus a correction based of the record of the last inspection.
Our state "use to" have yearly inspections for emissions control and it worked somewhat good other than the fact if you were poor(low reported income) you could get a pass on a vehicle that failed the emissions test(which IMO is totally wrong, the poor would probably be driving cars in need of repair that belched out toxic emissions and should be fixed while more affluent were driving new cars probably with the newest cleanest emission standards) but anyway it was scrapped and we no longer have such tests, not sure how many other states do. Like I said before, relying on honesty for reporting mileage is just ripe for cheating, heck we do that for reporting insurance to get new tabs and I'm guessing 20?? percent of vehicles on the road lack insurance :(
Not sure how much I'd like big brother spying on me, tracking everywhere I go but I agree, it might be the fairest method of tracking who drives where and how much to charge them.
At one time the gas tax was a pretty good easy way to pay for the roads but many states, mine included people squeal like a stuffed pig at any mention of raising the gas tax, so the vast majority comes out of the general fund, one of the least fair ways to pay for road repair :(
Semi-trucks already get regular weight and safety inspections. Switching to weight^2 * mileage for them is easy and fairer all around rather then requiring at least one in-state fill-up. Charge the Fees at the Weigh Stations based on mileage per trip. Driver's logs provide the mileage based on starting point and destination. Pickups don't weigh more than a SUV or any other large car unless they are actually hauling something. Mini-pickups are lighter then some cars. As for cheaters, mileage has to reported whenever a vehicle is sold with a substantial penalty for having under-reported annual mileage. That will stop most of it. The average car changes hands 2-3 times during it's lifetime and the next owner won't want to be stuck with owed fees. Requiring mileage to be reported when a car is scrapped takes care of the last owner.

The real problem is keeping the politicians from raiding the "Road Tax" account for their pet projects instead of using the money for road repair and maintenance.
Last edited by johnlocke on Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:41 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:27 am
New Mexico had a billion dollar surplus last year. They don't need to raise the gas tax to fix the roads.
If I thought actually paying more taxes would deliver more or better services I would be all for it.
Higher taxes deliver more bureaucracy, bigger more wasteful government, encourage fraud, waste and abuse such as no bid contracts and other cronyisms. Encourages dead end social engineering programs that reward bad behavior.
No thanks.
If the fuel taxes, vehicle registrations went into a roads only fund and only went to the roads. Then maybe.
You're arguing for better government (or at least government spending more in line with your priorities), but apparently not willing to invest any time or energy doing anything to bring that about. It's easy to blame any gov't for waste and inefficiency, there's always plenty of both, but at least in a democracy it's up to the public to make sure that the government reflects their priorities, rather than just sitting by and bitching that it doesn't. and of course, far more money has gone from general funds to road funds than the other way.
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Oilpan4
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:11 am

Ummm yeah the government works for me I don't work for them. Government exists to provide services that individuals and small groups of people can't.
You don't invest in government, you pay taxes, taxes are a liability.
Investing, or growing the government is a bad idea. It doesn't need to be any bigger, it's a ready too big.
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Nubo
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:20 pm

Roads are an essential part of modern infrastructure; just as essential as armies, courts, police, etc... Everyone benefits whether they drive a car a little, a lot, or not at all. A use tax (essentially a toll) is medieval thinking at its finest.
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I noticed you're still working with polymers.

Oilpan4
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:54 pm

I liked the toll roads in japan.
Almost like the Japanese version of the blue Ridge parkway.
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:16 pm

Nubo wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:20 pm
Roads are an essential part of modern infrastructure; just as essential as armies, courts, police, etc... Everyone benefits whether they drive a car a little, a lot, or not at all. A use tax (essentially a toll) is medieval thinking at its finest.
Image

Certainly all members of society benefit, but not equally, and whether you consider a use tax medieval or not, I have no trouble at all with the idea that those who impose the highest costs on a common infrastructure should pay more than those who impose a lesser amount. As noted previously, use taxes alone have never fully paid for public roads in the U.S., and much of the time they haven't even made up a majority - the rest comes out of general funds.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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