Why are so many people angry towards the LEAF

[Rebel44]

I can't understand why Nissan continues to design battery packs without active thermal management. EVERYONE else does now. How hard can it be to figure out?? Angry - no. Disappointed - very.

If designing a performance EV, active thermal management is a must have. No question.

If designing a commuting EV, rarely QC'd, mostly driven around town, active thermal management might not be a great idea. Downsides include the higher risk of fires, increased cost, reduced reliability and increased energy use. Yes, with current battery chemistry, hot climates are less suitable. Moderate climates is a break even, cooler climates there is no point to active thermal management as it never turns on, except perhaps to heat the pack and reduce battery life.

If you want a hammer, a saw isn't a good tool. If you want a saw, a hammer isn't a good tool.

Leaf is not some $15K MSRP city car - active battery cooling wouldn't significantly increase the cost (hell, Nissan might even save money on warranty replacement of batteries in warm regions) and it would reduce battery degradation and fast charging issues. DC charging isn't so rare that it should be disregarded. No idea how you came to the conclusion that active thermal management would increase the chance of fire.

 

[WetEV]

If designing a performance EV, active thermal management is a must have. No question.

You keep repeating "performance", but what you call "performance" I call a car that can easily do a 400 mile road trip. It doesn't need awesome 0-60 times. It needs to be able to keep taking a fast charge all the way to my destination.

For that, active thermal management is a must have.

Why does my commuting/around town car need to do a 400 mile road trip rapidly?

A lower performance car on that 400 mile road trip can be a nicer car in town and while commuting. Lower risk of fires, more reliable and cheaper.

A saw isn't a hammer.

 

[Lothsahn]

Leaf is not some $15K MSRP city car - active battery cooling wouldn't significantly increase the cost (hell, Nissan might even save money on warranty replacement of batteries in warm regions) and it would reduce battery degradation and fast charging issues.

I'm not an automotive engineer, but what you say sounds right.

DC charging isn't so rare that it should be disregarded.

I have never used a fast charger. I've had 1 time I wished my car had a fast charger, and I needed 10% more battery at the time to get to my destination. When I owned a second Leaf, I chose to keep the one without the fast charger because it offered little value to me.

For my use cases, it doesn't matter. Others definitely care about it.

No idea how you came to the conclusion that active thermal management would increase the chance of fire.

Lithium+water is bad. If coolant gets into the battery cells, there's an increased risk of fire. I don't know how significant it is, but, like your statement about the cost of active cooling, it does sound right.

Liquid-based thermal management also increases the risk of failure and the cost & complexity of repairs. The #1 reason for roadside breakdowns of ICE cars is coolant leaks. I personally wish my Leaf had no coolant anywhere--charger, battery, or heater. What I find insane is that on my 2011, they used coolant for the heater and the charger--running the coolant all the way to the back of the car. But they didn't cool the battery. Apparently the engineers agreed with me, as in 2013, the charger was relocated to the front of the car. But it's still liquid cooled.

I agree the Leaf should have active thermal management, but it's not without its drawbacks.

 

[goldbrick]

I'd say that adding thermal management would significantly increase the cost and complexity of a Leaf. If that wasn't the case, I'm sure someone would have done it by now.

Like with an ICE car, there are certainly advantages to liquid cooling but to say an air-cooled ICE isn't simpler and cheaper than a liquid cooled engine doesn't make sense to me.

 

[johnlocke]

I'd say that adding thermal management would significantly increase the cost and complexity of a Leaf. If that wasn't the case, I'm sure someone would have done it by now.

Like with an ICE car, there are certainly advantages to liquid cooling but to say an air-cooled ICE isn't simpler and cheaper than a liquid cooled engine doesn't make sense to me.

If you are a car manufacturer, pennies count. Nissan hasn't done it before now because it was cheaper to deal with some warranty replacements then re-engineer the battery system for active cooling. The new models will have a TMS for the battery. The larger battery simply requires it for fast charging.

By the way, simpler and cheaper isn't always better. Porsche and Corvairs were both air cooled. The engineering counts (a lot). It wouldn't have cost Nissan nearly as much to have done it right in the first place. Instead they opted for simpler and cheaper and it cost them their reputation as a leader in EV's.

 

[webeleafowners]

Of course the other side of the coin is , is a liquid cooling system really added value for everyone. It would make no difference in my car decision. With where I live and what I do with the car a liquid cooling system would do nothing for me. No real advantage. Just more money and more complex. If my needs change I’ll buy a suitable car but a liquid cooling system brings nothing to the table for me.

Having said that my guess is the next leaf will have one.

Jmho.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Of course the other side of the coin is , is a liquid cooling system really added value for everyone. It would make no difference in my car decision. With where I live and what I do with the car a liquid cooling system would do nothing for me. No real advantage. Just more money and more complex. If my needs change I’ll buy a suitable car but a liquid cooling system brings nothing to the table for me.

Having said that my guess is the next leaf will have one.

Jmho.

A TMS might well protect your car from extended subzero temps, especially if you can plug the car in during them.

 

[Nubo]

....
If you are a car manufacturer, pennies count. Nissan hasn't done it before now because it was cheaper to deal with some warranty replacements then re-engineer the battery system for active cooling. The new models will have a TMS for the battery. The larger battery simply requires it for fast charging. ...

More likely it will be the new battery chemistry which will mandate active cooling. One positive aspect of the LEAF batteries has been the resistance of the LiMnO chemistry to thermal runaway. Other chemistries HAVE to be actively cooled.

 

[webeleafowners]

Of course the other side of the coin is , is a liquid cooling system really added value for everyone. It would make no difference in my car decision. With where I live and what I do with the car a liquid cooling system would do nothing for me. No real advantage. Just more money and more complex. If my needs change I’ll buy a suitable car but a liquid cooling system brings nothing to the table for me.

Having said that my guess is the next leaf will have one.

Jmho.

A TMS might well protect your car from extended subzero temps, especially if you can plug the car in during them.

Could be Leftie. Where I live it seldom if ever gets below minus 15 C. I’m not sure how that plays in to things. The leaf is always outside. Hasn’t seemed to bother it yet.

 

[lebikerboy]

....
If you are a car manufacturer, pennies count. Nissan hasn't done it before now because it was cheaper to deal with some warranty replacements then re-engineer the battery system for active cooling. The new models will have a TMS for the battery. The larger battery simply requires it for fast charging. ...

More likely it will be the new battery chemistry which will mandate active cooling. One positive aspect of the LEAF batteries has been the resistance of the LiMnO chemistry to thermal runaway. Other chemistries HAVE to be actively cooled.

The 2018/19 use Lithium Nickel Cobalt Manganese Oxide...

 

[Nubo]

....
If you are a car manufacturer, pennies count. Nissan hasn't done it before now because it was cheaper to deal with some warranty replacements then re-engineer the battery system for active cooling. The new models will have a TMS for the battery. The larger battery simply requires it for fast charging. ...

More likely it will be the new battery chemistry which will mandate active cooling. One positive aspect of the LEAF batteries has been the resistance of the LiMnO chemistry to thermal runaway. Other chemistries HAVE to be actively cooled.

The 2018/19 use Lithium Nickel Cobalt Manganese Oxide...

That's what I get for speaking in absolutes. :lol: