What would you do if you were in my shoes? Possible new leaf

[cstambaugh]

I've done my research, I know what to expect. I've driven multiple leafs, etc. So my question is not about the car in itself, but rather if it fits my habits and life. I want to make a decision on reality and not want. You guys have driven them for a few years now so what would you suggest?

Current cars:
2008 infiniti m45x (4.5L v8) Average 20 mpg. This is the car I'm thinking about replacing with a leaf.
2008 Mercedes c300 (3.0L v6) Average 25 mpg. Wifes car, this car will stay and be our long range 2nd car.
The #1 reason I'm considering a leaf is for cost per month of ownership alone, nothing else. Based on my numbers, I'm estimating the leaf to save me anywhere from $400-500/mo.

I'm an IT consultant so I drive all over the state of IN, but not all the time every day. Sometimes I wont leave the Indy area for weeks (like this month), but sometimes I'll drive 2 hours away for a week straight. When I stay in town, I'm usually around 50-60 miles a day, sometimes less. These are the days I keep thinking to myself that if I had a leaf, it would be absolutely perfect. My day would cost me $2.50 vs $10-20 to drive around. Trips to the gym, grocery, etc. would virtually be free vs. the 15 MPG in the infiniti.
I average around 25k-30k miles/year in just my car. My wife drives 6-8k/year.

What my thinking is that the Leaf would be my primary car, especially while I'm staying in town. On the occasions that I need to drive outside of the distance the leaf can handle, my wife and I just swap cars for the day since she drives 10 miles round trip every day to work. Long trips, we would obviously take the ICE.
Am I crazy in thinking this will work? I'm looking at a possible 24 mo. lease of a 2013 SL. My hardship is giving up a premium sedan for a leaf, but at the same time, an extra $500/mo is hard to pass up. I really like the leaf as a car as well, but its no M either. I will say, if the leaf were a 200+mi range EV, I'd do it no questions asked. I cant justify the price of a Tesla S currently, that's why I'm looking to the leaf.

What would you do? What do you guys suggest?

 

[smkettner]

Similar situation. I bought my LEAF two years ago. In hindsight maybe should have leased but that is still to be determined.

 

[abasile]

Sounds like a great fit to me! After getting used to a smooth electric drivetrain, any ICE seems primitive to me. The only way trading for a LEAF would be a problem is if both you and your wife need long-distance cars on the same day.

Also, I've never leased a car before (and never intend to), so I'm not sure how things would work out with your high mileage.

 

[Herm]

If you get a call after the wive leaves for work.. Could you go pick her car up and drop the Leaf?.. 60 miles a day is kind of marginal in winter, unless you can pick up an occasional charge

 

[P71VIC]

I think the question is more for the Wife. Will she be ok trading cars for a week while you are on a gig on the other side of the state?

 

[thankyouOB]

do you have to sell the Infiniti?

 

[cstambaugh]

Sounds like a great fit to me! After getting used to a smooth electric drivetrain, any ICE seems primitive to me. The only way trading for a LEAF would be a problem is if both you and your wife need long-distance cars on the same day.

Also, I've never leased a car before (and never intend to), so I'm not sure how things would work out with your high mileage.

I've never leased before either, but the way the leaf works out its almost impractical not to. The lease payments are significantly lower ($5k down, lease is 121/mo, purchase is 474/mo), and this late in the leaf version 1's life, the depreciation when the version 2 comes out is something I wouldn't have to worry about if I were to need to sell it in a couple of years. Also, both of us needing long distance cars in the same day has happened once in the past 3 years. I'm OK with having to possibly rent a car for a couple days if needed once in a great while.

If you get a call after the wive leaves for work.. Could you go pick her car up and drop the Leaf?.. 60 miles a day is kind of marginal in winter, unless you can pick up an occasional charge

Fortunately yes. I'd have to pass by her place of work on the way to the highway junction. I've thought about this because it does happen.

I think the question is more for the Wife. Will she be ok trading cars for a week while you are on a gig on the other side of the state?

Yes. She gets to keep her car for the most part so she's obviously OK with the additional savings per month. :lol:

do you have to sell the Infiniti?

This is the biggest dilemma I'm trying to figure out. If I could figure out a way to keep the Infiniti and add on the leaf I'd do it without question. But in my situation, the leaf would have to pay for itself to justify me doing so. The numbers dont work that way unless I sacrifice the payment on the infiniti.

 

[greengate]

Too much math for me to deal with here.

Suggest you make the decision from "right action;" what's better for the environment and the world. That is one way we all can do something to make a difference and if there is some sacrifice, make it and you will feel better..especially after you drive one...you will NEVER go back!!

Sounds like a great fit to me! After getting used to a smooth electric drivetrain, any ICE seems primitive to me. The only way trading for a LEAF would be a problem is if both you and your wife need long-distance cars on the same day.

Also, I've never leased a car before (and never intend to), so I'm not sure how things would work out with your high mileage.

I've never leased before either, but the way the leaf works out its almost impractical not to. The lease payments are significantly lower ($5k down, lease is 121/mo, purchase is 474/mo), and this late in the leaf version 1's life, the depreciation when the version 2 comes out is something I wouldn't have to worry about if I were to need to sell it in a couple of years. Also, both of us needing long distance cars in the same day has happened once in the past 3 years. I'm OK with having to possibly rent a car for a couple days if needed once in a great while.

If you get a call after the wive leaves for work.. Could you go pick her car up and drop the Leaf?.. 60 miles a day is kind of marginal in winter, unless you can pick up an occasional charge

Fortunately yes. I'd have to pass by her place of work on the way to the highway junction. I've thought about this because it does happen.

I think the question is more for the Wife. Will she be ok trading cars for a week while you are on a gig on the other side of the state?

Yes. She gets to keep her car for the most part so she's obviously OK with the additional savings per month. :lol:

do you have to sell the Infiniti?

This is the biggest dilemma I'm trying to figure out. If I could figure out a way to keep the Infiniti and add on the leaf I'd do it without question. But in my situation, the leaf would have to pay for itself to justify me doing so. The numbers dont work that way unless I sacrifice the payment on the infiniti.

 

[cstambaugh]

Too much math for me to deal with here.

Suggest you make the decision from "right action;" what's better for the environment and the world. That is one way we all can do something to make a difference and if there is some sacrifice, make it and you will feel better..especially after you drive one...you will NEVER go back!!

Well...haha. I'm not one of "those" kinds of people that bash efficient cars. I've owned just about every hybrid there is. I love EV's and hybrids. The largest mis-conception about EV/hybrid cars is that they are good for the environment. They are actually quite the opposite. If you knew what it took to make one of these including the batteries, parts from all over, etc. you probably wouldn't buy one. Day to day driving of course isnt pushing out the Co2 other cars are, but the burning of fossile fuels, pollutants emitted into the environment just to produce one hybrid/EV is beyond what it will ever save multiple times over.

This purchase is solely based on a monetary value.

 

[OttoH]

...The largest mis-conception about EV/hybrid cars is that they are good for the environment. They are actually quite the opposite. If you knew what it took to make one of these including the batteries, parts from all over, etc. you probably wouldn't buy one. Day to day driving of course isnt pushing out the Co2 other cars are, but the burning of fossile fuels, pollutants emitted into the environment just to produce one hybrid/EV is beyond what it will ever save multiple times over.

Haven't this been pretty thoroughly debunked by now?

 

[abasile]

...the burning of fossile fuels, pollutants emitted into the environment just to produce one hybrid/EV is beyond what it will ever save multiple times over.

That is a pretty big claim to make. If it's possible for you to provide a reputable source for this assertion, that would be appreciated. My understanding is that producing a BEV requires somewhere on the order of double the energy compared to manufacturing a similar-sized conventional car. However, over the lifetime of the car, the BEV comes out way ahead assuming your electric power generation is relatively clean. Even if it's not, there's generally still the advantage of reducing local air pollution, not having to breathe exhaust while the car is running rich, etc.

That said, one certainly does not need to be an environmentalist to appreciate electric cars. Besides the potential cost savings, there is the pleasure of instant torque and smooth power delivery, not to mention the geopolitical benefits. I personally would rather keep my "fuel" money in the United States and out of the hands of those who support terror. Sure, we can keep drilling for oil on US soil, but that's not going to last forever.

 

[redrunner]

What my thinking is that the Leaf would be my primary car, especially while I'm staying in town. On the occasions that I need to drive outside of the distance the leaf can handle, my wife and I just swap cars for the day since she drives 10 miles round trip every day to work. Long trips, we would obviously take the ICE.

This will not work, at least not for you. As soon as your wife takes the Leaf you will never drive it again.

 

[TomT]

It hasn't worked out that way here... She likes driving the Leaf but enjoys her ICE vehicle just as much. It may partially be because her ICE is a lot more luxurious and technically advanced (from the standpoint of creature comforts) than the Leaf... It's also extremely smooth and quiet so the motive difference is not as apparent as with some ICEs...

This will not work, at least not for you. As soon as your wife takes the Leaf you will never drive it again.

 

[TomT]

Most people are willing to make sacrifices but only if they do not have to suffer a major inconvenience or change in lifestyle. Expecting people to by the Leaf simply from "right action" is not going to result in a windfall of sales...

Suggest you make the decision from "right action;" what's better for the environment and the world.

 

[sproqitman]

Well...haha. I'm not one of "those" kinds of people that bash efficient cars. I've owned just about every hybrid there is. I love EV's and hybrids. The largest mis-conception about EV/hybrid cars is that they are good for the environment. They are actually quite the opposite. If you knew what it took to make one of these including the batteries, parts from all over, etc. you probably wouldn't buy one. Day to day driving of course isnt pushing out the Co2 other cars are, but the burning of fossile fuels, pollutants emitted into the environment just to produce one hybrid/EV is beyond what it will ever save multiple times over.

You read the Lomborg article in the WSJ, correct? That article has been thoroughly discredited by a number of sources, such as Clean Technica. The most egregious assumption Lomborg makes is that the cars are broken down for scrap after only 50K miles. The California Air Resources Board has a comparison study of the lifecycle emissions of ICE, Hybrid, and BEV vehicles, using a more realistic duty cycle of 200K miles. Including a battery swap at 100K miles, the BEV has less than half the total CO2 emissions of the ICE.

 

[cwerdna]

...The largest mis-conception about EV/hybrid cars is that they are good for the environment. They are actually quite the opposite. If you knew what it took to make one of these including the batteries, parts from all over, etc. you probably wouldn't buy one. Day to day driving of course isnt pushing out the Co2 other cars are, but the burning of fossile fuels, pollutants emitted into the environment just to produce one hybrid/EV is beyond what it will ever save multiple times over.

Haven't this been pretty thoroughly debunked by now?

Yes, it has been very thoroughly debunked. It's ridiculous that the CNW "Hummer/Tahoe is greener than a Prius" junk science STILL refuses to die. :evil:

See http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Environmental" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. If nothing else, read these:
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_versus_prius.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (specifically the PDF)
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_versus_prius_redux.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (also the PDF)
http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/mrgreen_mailbag.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://web.archive.org/web/20090612061919/http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's also do some simple calculations, per http://blog.truecar.com/2013/04/11/average-fuel-economy-for-new-cars-sold-sets-record-for-3rd-consecutive-month-according-to-truecars-truempg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, average light vehicle mpg was 23.7 mpg recently. Let's assume a 50 mpg combined Prius only gets 45 mpg combined. Over 150K miles, the 23.7 mpg vehicle would've consumed 2995.8 additional gallons of gasoline, weighing 18873 lbs and producing 59915 additional lbs of CO2. The 18873 lbs. of gasoline comes from oil that must be explored for, drilled for, pumped, shipped, refined (requiring more energy input), shipped again, pumped and carried as dead weight in a vehicle.

You mean to tell me that a 2890 lb. Prius (Gen 2 curb weight when the CNW junk came out) or 3042 lb. Gen 3 Prius (relatively light for a midsized vehicle; '13 Malibu LS is 3393 lbs, '13 Camry L is 3190 lbs) containing a ~100 lb. NiMH battery w/32 lbs of nickel, most of which comes from recycled material will result in more environmental damage than the burning of 18873 lbs. of gasoline?

Per the above PDFs, the vast majority (70-90%) of a vehicle's energy consumption is due to OPERATION, w/the remainder being manufacture and disposal.

If you're "concerned" that a vehicle comes from Japan and nickel comes from other places, just take a look at the findings of a North American built vehicle (Ford Crown Vic) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivdhpdqCQAA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[cstambaugh]

Hey guys, again. I honestly don't care about if its better for the environment or not, that is not my purchase motivation. I'm looking at this from a purely monetary standpoint, and whether or not my thinking is reasonable with the leaf.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Fair enough. I'm just requesting that you stop perpetuating that myth and misinformation.

Better yet, look over what I pointed you to along with http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; relating to the absurdity of CNW's claims that the Pacific Institute points out below, so that you can be convinced that it IS a myth.

The CNW Marketing Research, Inc.’s 2007 “Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles From Concept to Disposal” caught the interest of the media and the public with its claim that a Hummer H3 SUV has a lower life-cycle energy cost than a Toyota Prius hybrid. Closer inspection suggests that the report’s conclusions rely on faulty methods of analysis, untenable assumptions, selective use and presentation of data, and a complete lack of peer review. Even the most cursory look reveals serious biases and flaws: the average Hummer H1 is assumed to travel 379,000 miles and last for 35 years, while the average Prius is assumed to last only 109,000 miles over less than 12 years. These selective and unsupported assumptions distort the final results. A quick re-analysis with peer-reviewed data leads to completely opposite conclusions: the life-cycle energy requirements of hybrids and smaller cars are far lower than Hummers and other large SUVs.

 

[smkettner]

Hey guys, again. I honestly don't care about if its better for the environment or not, that is not my purchase motivation. I'm looking at this from a purely monetary standpoint, and whether or not my thinking is reasonable with the leaf.

I think you will save money. Worst case break even and drive a new and wonderful vehicle.

 

[greengate]

...The largest mis-conception about EV/hybrid cars is that they are good for the environment. They are actually quite the opposite. If you knew what it took to make one of these including the batteries, parts from all over, etc. you probably wouldn't buy one. Day to day driving of course isnt pushing out the Co2 other cars are, but the burning of fossile fuels, pollutants emitted into the environment just to produce one hybrid/EV is beyond what it will ever save multiple times over.

Haven't this been pretty thoroughly debunked by now?

Every garden has some weeds.