What is the actual miles from a full charge on the freeway

[Fabio]

so do I

I wish Orange County is more progressive tho :roll: , and sooner rather than later.

 

[daniel]

I agree that a 70-mile commute each way would disincline me towards buying a Leaf.

Ironically, it is that kind of commute that will make Leaf economically worthwhile.

Economically, yes. But with a real-world range reported by some users to be around 85 miles, without using climate control, and allowing for the possibility of detours or other unanticipated traffic issues, a 15-mile buffer seems cutting it close IMO. Then as the pack ages and loses range, the buffer shrinks. Or if there's a problem with the charger(s) at work and they're not working for a few hours, the car would not have an adequate charge for the return trip. Level 2 takes 8 hours to charge from empty; maybe 5 1/2 hours from 30% SoC?

70 miles, for me, is around where I'd be thinking seriously about range issues. 60 miles and I'd be in; 80 miles and I'd be out. 70 is on the cusp.

 

[Herm]

I agree that a 70-mile commute each way would disincline me towards buying a Leaf.

Ironically, it is that kind of commute that will make Leaf economically worthwhile.

You would save money on gas but the premature wear on the battery will hurt, how long do you think the battery will last with two nearly 100% cycles everyday?.. not very long. You would be better off with a 2 year old used Corolla.

if we follow the 65% rule from GM and LG then that would be a daily range of 48 miles for long term battery life... lots of people drive under this.

 

[daniel]

I agree that a 70-mile commute each way would disincline me towards buying a Leaf.

Ironically, it is that kind of commute that will make Leaf economically worthwhile.

You would save money on gas but the premature wear on the battery will hurt, how long do you think the battery will last with two nearly 100% cycles everyday?.. not very long. You would be better off with a 2 year old used Corolla.

if we follow the 65% rule from GM and LG then that would be a daily range of 48 miles for long term battery life... lots of people drive under this.

Actually, a two-year-old Corolla would do better, financially, than ANY new car! The depreciation of a new car as it rolls off the lot means it's NEVER the most economical transportation over the life of the car, compared to a good used car.

Of course, if nobody ever bought new cars, there wouldn't be any used cars.

If you want economical transportation and a bicycle or public transportation is ruled out for any reason, you'd get a used car and car-pool it with as many people as will fit. A Suburban with 8 people riding in it burns less gas and pollutes less per person than a Prius with one person driving in the HOV lane.

 

[evnow]

You would save money on gas but the premature wear on the battery will hurt, how long do you think the battery will last with two nearly 100% cycles everyday?.. not very long.

Nissan warrantees for 100K miles. At 140 miles a work day (and no miles on weekends) - that 100K mark will be reached in 3 years !

Ofcourse, we don't know what will happen after that - but we should expect the pack to go to 80% of capacity - though it will most probably fare better.

As I have mentioned numerous times previously, that kind of commute is not sustainable in a peak oil world.

 

[AndyH]

You would save money on gas but the premature wear on the battery will hurt, how long do you think the battery will last with two nearly 100% cycles everyday?.. not very long. You would be better off with a 2 year old used Corolla.

if we follow the 65% rule from GM and LG then that would be a daily range of 48 miles for long term battery life... lots of people drive under this.

The problem with this line of reasoning, Herm, is that the Volt is a hybrid and the LG Chem battery is tweaked to favor power over energy - and that's why hybrids need to keep discharge shallower for long life. A lithium battery designed for energy delivery - in other words for EV use - will provide it's full design life using the full 100% consumer allowance.

So yes - sorry - we not only have different chemistries in the lithium family, but even cells with the same chemistry can be tweaked to favor power or energy. In the LiFePO4 world, for example, one can put a 10Ah energy cell in the same size cylindrical case as an 8Ah power cell - and the energy cell will have a larger cycle life at 80% than the energy cell also at 80% DoD.

 

[Herm]

The problem with this line of reasoning, Herm, is that the Volt is a hybrid and the LG Chem battery is tweaked to favor power over energy -

Good point on the Sonata, but the Volt is part time BEV with a range extender and uses a battery biased for energy, not power.. and a similar chemistry as the Leaf so no need to bring in LiFePO4 into it.. just drain the gas out of a Volt and you will see its a BEV, it may complain about it but it will run fine for 40 miles. Its just curious that both companies are only using a 65% SOC. Hyundai engineers are boasting of a very long life for their battery pack.

 

[Herm]

Actually, a two-year-old Corolla would do better, financially, than ANY new car! The depreciation of a new car as it rolls off the lot means it's NEVER the most economical transportation over the life of the car, compared to a good used car.

Thats why I always bring up the 2 year old Corolla as my standard comment when someone talks about new car economics.. we buy new cars because we want to, never to save money. There are case when you have strong $$ incentives, perhaps at the end-of-the-model-year when it makes more sense but that is rare.

 

[AndyH]

The problem with this line of reasoning, Herm, is that the Volt is a hybrid and the LG Chem battery is tweaked to favor power over energy -

Good point on the Sonata, but the Volt is part time BEV with a range extender and uses a battery biased for energy, not power.. and a similar chemistry as the Leaf so no need to bring in LiFePO4 into it.. just drain the gas out of a Volt and you will see its a BEV, it may complain about it but it will run fine for 40 miles. Its just curious that both companies are only using a 65% SOC. Hyundai engineers are boasting of a very long life for their battery pack.

Again - I do understand how the Volt works.

The Leaf battery has only one energy mode - charge depleting.
A traditional hybrid has one - charge sustaining.
The Volt has both charge depleting and charge sustaining.

Charge sustaining mode is full of hybrid power pulses into and out of the pack - high energy for short durations. This is harder on a battery than a life of CD mode like a BEV. To get a long life from a battery in CS mode, one has to use the pack differently (AKA restrict it to a ~65% DoD range).

Hybrid MUST use ~65% ultimate (100% consumer) DoD to achieve design life. BEV can deliver design life at ~80% (100% consumer Leaf DoD).

An additional factor is that the Volt's hybrid battery is part of the emission control system. GM NEEDS that battery to provide the same performance at 100K miles as at mile 0 in order to keep their emissions certification - they cannot allow battery degradation to increase the emissions profile.

Apples and oranges all the way around.

 

[daniel]

Nissan warrantees for 100K miles.

Only against defects. There's no warranty against a faster-than-expected degradation of range. I share your optimism that the batteries will do better than some people fear. But Nissan is making no promises in that regard.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Nissan warrantees for 100K miles.

Only against defects. There's no warranty against a faster-than-expected degradation of range. I share your optimism that the batteries will do better than some people fear. But Nissan is making no promises in that regard.

I think the pack will do worse than people here think for high DOD and 100% charging. I think it will also age more than expected. Don;t forget those with lead foots and high temp regions. We shall see.

 

[evnow]

I think the pack will do worse than people here think for high DOD and 100% charging. I think it will also age more than expected. Don;t forget those with lead foots and high temp regions. We shall see.

Lead foots won't make 70 miles regularly at highway speeds

 

[daniel]

Nissan warrantees for 100K miles.

Only against defects. There's no warranty against a faster-than-expected degradation of range. I share your optimism that the batteries will do better than some people fear. But Nissan is making no promises in that regard.

I think the pack will do worse than people here think for high DOD and 100% charging. I think it will also age more than expected. Don;t forget those with lead foots and high temp regions. We shall see.

Indeed we shall. At this point it's anybody's guess. Obviously we on this board are all optimistic or we wouldn't have ordered/bought the car. For all my anger at Nissan, I expect the car to do very well.

 

[Herm]

The Leaf battery has only one energy mode - charge depleting.
A traditional hybrid has one - charge sustaining.
The Volt has both charge depleting and charge sustaining.
Charge sustaining mode is full of hybrid power pulses into and out of the pack - high energy for short durations.

The Volts genset runs at a fairly constant power level, not really recharging the battery past a minimum.. the Sonata Hybrid on the other hand does have a lot going on, while cruising at 65mph on the hwy the ICE recharges the battery to its upper lever for one minute, then shuts off and the car keeps cruising at 65mhp on electric for about 45 seconds, then the cycle repeats itself. It gets great mileage in the hwy at 65mph. Its a fascinating large car.

I think the Volt and Leaf are not really that much different, but I do agree the Sonata is a different beast. The 10 year rule is probably why the Volt uses 65% SOC, and to also meet the coming ultra low emission certification it needs for the HOV lane sticker

 

[Bassman]

Looks like we've got a new max daily mileage king. I commute 126 miles roundtrip with my LEAF. If you keep it on ECO mode and at 55 mph, you shouldn't have any problems. My commute includes lots of hills, especially on the trip back home (35 foot elevation to 1500 foot elevation) and I still get home with about one to two bars remaining (8-17% SOC) and sometimes, with a good tailwind, three bars and 21%SOC. Also with the new firmware theres some reserve left in the battery even when no bars are shown (Some people have gone 6-7 miles after no bars before getting the very low battery warning). We may get some accelerated battery degradation by charging to 100% twice a day, but the jury is still out on that as far as I'm concerned.

 

[evnow]

I think the Volt and Leaf are not really that much different...

You have to also look at discharge C levels. Given that Volt has a bigger motor and substantially smaller battery, they discarge the battery at more than 10C (at high power demand). Leaf discharge is much lower. This holds good at any power demand too - Volt is alwys discharging at higher levels. That will have a marked effect on the battery.

Infact I think that is why Volt needs battery cooling and Leaf doesn't (I've a thread on that somewhere).

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I think the Volt and Leaf are not really that much different...

You have to also look at discharge C levels. Given that Volt has a bigger motor and substantially smaller battery, they discarge the battery at more than 10C (at high power demand).

That's an interesting point.. hadn't thought of that.

 

[Stoaty]

I think the pack will do worse than people here think for high DOD and 100% charging.

DOD = Department of Defense?

 

[mwalsh]

DOD = Department of Defense?

Depth of Discharge.

BTW, kinda odd when someone posts once (well twice) and then disappears.

 

[davewill]

BTW, kinda odd when someone posts once (well twice) and then disappears.

Happens a lot. In this case, I suspect the OP got his answer in the first few responses, and now has no need to follow up.