What is a true comparable car to the LEAF and Volt?

[cwerdna]

Hmmm, for me, I don't at all think the VW Golf is anywhere near fitting the most. Despite the "clean diesel" greenwashing, it's dirty w/a lousy 6/10 on the EPA air pollution score and emits FAR more CO2 per given distance than a Prius (since diesel has higher carbon content). I normally wouldn't consider VWs (or Audis) since most have lackluster reliability. The Golf's also classified as a compact whereas the Prius is a midsized car, like the Leaf.

IMHO, Prius is closest and Insight is next, since they're hybrids, both are AT-PZEV certified in CARB states and have similar amounts of horsepower.

The question here, though, is what regular ICE cars can, should, or will be directly compared to the Leaf and the Volt. Your criteria of burning fuel immediately rules out anything but other EVs, and that's not the point.

Greenwashing aside, the type of customer who would buy a Golf TDI more closely resembles the type of customer who would buy a Leaf. Both cars are roughly similar in terms of usefulness and someone interested in a VW TDI is likely more technically focused than your average Prius buyer. The Prius has become far too mainstream, and threatens to overtake the Camry for Toyota's most popular car. Most Prius buyers will determine they want a Prius because they've heard about it and their geeky friends have them so they must be good. A TDI buyer is more likely to look at the alternatives and not go the way the mainstream buying public will go so is also more likely to look at a Leaf (or a Civic GX etc).

Furthermore, if you don't think a Golf TDI is a valid comparison then just substitute it for a Jetta Sportwagen TDI - which is similarly priced but larger than a Golf and I believe slightly larger than a Leaf.

I think you've demonstrated quite well that comparisons with a Leaf or Volt are varied and depend on the individual's priorities and interests. You are not interested in performance or luxury, and place a strong value on environmental factors. I bet you that at least half of Volt and Leaf buyers do not rate environmental factors as their top reason for purchasing the vehicle. Environmental performance probably ranks 3rd or 4th on my list of reasons for purchasing the Leaf, and it has absolutely nothing to do with CO2 or global warming score. I am not a global warming denier but I am concerned much more with local air pollution than global warming pollution.

Interesting that a VW TDI buyer is more "technically focused".

VWs generally have poor reliability. "Clean diesels" are dirty polluters (with respect to the EPA air pollution score) vs. AT-PZEV cars. This is directly related to local air pollution and has nothing to do GHG emissions. Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline in the US. GHG emissions are worse on the TDI since burning diesel produces more CO2 than the same amount of gasoline (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2009_fotw576.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

As I said, non-hybrids and cars w/o auto-start/stop systems uselessly burn fuel while stopped/idling.

I agree that the Prius has gone quite "mainstream", but I'm not convinced that VW TDI buyers are more "technically focused".

 

[AndyH]

...Interesting that a VW TDI buyer is more "technically focused". VWs generally have poor reliability.

I'll step into this as a 'repeat offender' TDI owner/driver/maintainer. Many TDIers actually are more technically focused. We generally don't have to focus on the primary systems as they've been engineered quite well and are fairly robust. There have been some VW reliability challenges from time to time, but they are things like window regulators and non-drivetrain electrical glitches.

Many TDIers test their own engine oil with the goal of extending the oil drain interval (thus using less oil) and monitoring the very low engine wear rates. In the 410,000 miles I've operated my Passat TDI, the shortest engine oil change interval was just over 12 months and the longest was 26 months.

"Clean diesels" are dirty polluters (with respect to the EPA air pollution score) vs. AT-PZEV cars.

And red delicious apples are red while lemons are yellow. Or an electric city bus is cleaner than a Prius. Twisted comparisons all. 'Clean' diesels finally meet the same tier 2 bin 5 emissions standard as all gasoline powered cars - and this includes particulates. Yes, there is technology that is cleaner. But diesels have come a very long way. And this is very often enough because...

This is directly related to local air pollution and has nothing to do GHG emissions. Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline in the US. GHG emissions are worse on the TDI since burning diesel produces more CO2 than the same amount of gasoline (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2009_fotw576.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

The numbers are correct but they're used incorrectly. Yes, diesel fuel has more carbon atoms than gasoline. But in side-by-side vehicles in the same service, the total carbon from the diesel is likely to be lower because the engine burns less fuel for the same distance traveled. Many TDI owners purchase the vehicles specifically because they drive long distances regularly. These generally aren't city cars. Yes, fuel is generally more expensive per gallon - but it's significantly less per mile. And don't forget that filling with biodiesel changes the GHG numbers significantly.

As I said, non-hybrids and cars w/o auto-start/stop systems uselessly burn fuel while stopped/idling.

Absolutely! The good news is that TDI drivers, just like gasoline vehicle operators, can shut the engine off at intersections - both types of vehicles have manually-operated engine disabling equipment installed as standard equipment. And yes - it makes a noticeable improvement on fuel burn rate. And it's more than enough to buy a few extra ignition key switches (one of the weak items on late model TDIs even before becoming a manually-operated start/stop 'hybrid').

I agree that the Prius has gone quite "mainstream", but I'm not convinced that VW TDI buyers are more "technically focused".

Hit Fred's TDI club for a time. http://tdiclub.com/ It's not the same as hacking the hybrid system, but there is satisfaction to be found swapping fuel injectors to increase fuel economy. The cars are actually cleaner running with European injectors and chip programming - illegal but cleaner - and fuel economy improves as well.

 

[cwerdna]

...Interesting that a VW TDI buyer is more "technically focused". VWs generally have poor reliability.

Many TDIers test their own engine oil with the goal of extending the oil drain interval (thus using less oil) and monitoring the very low engine wear rates. In the 410,000 miles I've operated my Passat TDI, the shortest engine oil change interval was just over 12 months and the longest was 26 months.

FWIW, on current gen Priuses, the OCI is now 10K miles/12 months.

"Clean diesels" are dirty polluters (with respect to the EPA air pollution score) vs. AT-PZEV cars.

And red delicious apples are red while lemons are yellow. Or an electric city bus is cleaner than a Prius. Twisted comparisons all. 'Clean' diesels finally meet the same tier 2 bin 5 emissions standard as all gasoline powered cars - and this includes particulates. Yes, there is technology that is cleaner. But diesels have come a very long way. And this is very often enough because...

Yeah, but a CA/CARB certified Prius is Tier 2 Bin 2 (http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. You can verify this at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

This is directly related to local air pollution and has nothing to do GHG emissions. Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline in the US. GHG emissions are worse on the TDI since burning diesel produces more CO2 than the same amount of gasoline (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2009_fotw576.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

The numbers are correct but they're used incorrectly. Yes, diesel fuel has more carbon atoms than gasoline. But in side-by-side vehicles in the same service, the total carbon from the diesel is likely to be lower because the engine burns less fuel for the same distance traveled. Many TDI owners purchase the vehicles specifically because they drive long distances regularly. These generally aren't city cars. Yes, fuel is generally more expensive per gallon - but it's significantly less per mile. And don't forget that filling with biodiesel changes the GHG numbers significantly.

Let's see, per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31575&id=31767" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, a '12 VW Jetta TDI is EPA rated at 34 mpg combined vs. 50 mpg combined for the Prius. Let's be generous and assume that somehow the EPA tests are way low for diesel vehicles (as some will assert) and assume somehow the Jetta TDI also gets 50 mpg combined. Even with that, the diesel would still be emitting ~14.4% more CO2.

As for biodiesel, when I last looked, VW only approved of a maximum of B5 (5% biodiesel) that meet industry standards.

As I said, non-hybrids and cars w/o auto-start/stop systems uselessly burn fuel while stopped/idling.

Absolutely! The good news is that TDI drivers, just like gasoline vehicle operators, can shut the engine off at intersections - both types of vehicles have manually-operated engine disabling equipment installed as standard equipment. And yes - it makes a noticeable improvement on fuel burn rate. And it's more than enough to buy a few extra ignition key switches (one of the weak items on late model TDIs even before becoming a manually-operated start/stop 'hybrid').

Ok, but those diesels can't creep along on electric only while in stop & go and low speeds. They can't run their AC when the engine's off. They have no regen. All braking energy is wasted as heat and brake dust.

 

[Cheezmo]

Once again I am out of sync with the mainstream :lol:, as I came from a BMW 3 series to the Leaf... If the Leaf handled and drove like the BMW, and had the same interior quality and appointments, it would be near perfect for me...

Me too, an M3 no less. They call us the crazy ones...

 

[LEAFfan]

For me the only comparison to Leaf is Mitsubishi i and Ford Focus electric.

I'm adding one more comparison to the LEAF that is available now...the Wave II which won the X-Prize from Li-ion Motors. It's available now for $39K MSRP.
http://www.li-ionmotors.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[IBELEAF]

For me the only comparison to Leaf is Mitsubishi i and Ford Focus electric.

I'm adding one more comparison to the LEAF that is available now...the Wave II which won the X-Prize from Li-ion Motors. It's available now for $39K MSRP.
http://www.li-ionmotors.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Groceries, golf clubs? Take it with you. Take it home. The Wave II features the most storage space of any electric car with more than 28 cubic feet, far more than the Nissan Leaf and the Toyota Prius.

Finally, an Electric car that can fit Whole Foods groceries on the way to golf course!

 

[LEAFfan]

The question here, though, is what regular ICE cars can, should, or will be directly compared to the Leaf and the Volt.

The title of this thread only says 'car', not ICE. If the OP wanted to just compare ICEs with the LEAF, then they need it to say "ICE car".

 

[AndyH]

...Interesting that a VW TDI buyer is more "technically focused". VWs generally have poor reliability.

Many TDIers test their own engine oil with the goal of extending the oil drain interval (thus using less oil) and monitoring the very low engine wear rates. In the 410,000 miles I've operated my Passat TDI, the shortest engine oil change interval was just over 12 months and the longest was 26 months.

FWIW, on current gen Priuses, the OCI is now 10K miles/12 months.

Yes, same for the TDIs - for NORMAL service. OCIs must be backed-down to about half this for the majority of people that are actually operating in the severe category, or are using biofuel in any proportion, or have modified the fuel delivery system, or... The OCI for larger injectors, 20% biodiesel, and 1000 lbs of cargo in a hot climate at highway speeds should be a bit shorter than normal.

"Clean diesels" are dirty polluters (with respect to the EPA air pollution score) vs. AT-PZEV cars.

And red delicious apples are red while lemons are yellow. Or an electric city bus is cleaner than a Prius. Twisted comparisons all. 'Clean' diesels finally meet the same tier 2 bin 5 emissions standard as all gasoline powered cars - and this includes particulates. Yes, there is technology that is cleaner. But diesels have come a very long way. And this is very often enough because...

Yeah, but a CA/CARB certified Prius is Tier 2 Bin 2 (http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. You can verify this at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

This is directly related to local air pollution and has nothing to do GHG emissions. Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline in the US. GHG emissions are worse on the TDI since burning diesel produces more CO2 than the same amount of gasoline (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2009_fotw576.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

The numbers are correct but they're used incorrectly. Yes, diesel fuel has more carbon atoms than gasoline. But in side-by-side vehicles in the same service, the total carbon from the diesel is likely to be lower because the engine burns less fuel for the same distance traveled. Many TDI owners purchase the vehicles specifically because they drive long distances regularly. These generally aren't city cars. Yes, fuel is generally more expensive per gallon - but it's significantly less per mile. And don't forget that filling with biodiesel changes the GHG numbers significantly.

Let's see, per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31575&id=31767" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, a '12 VW Jetta TDI is EPA rated at 34 mpg combined vs. 50 mpg combined for the Prius. Let's be generous and assume that somehow the EPA tests are way low for diesel vehicles (as some will assert) and assume somehow the Jetta TDI also gets 50 mpg combined. Even with that, the diesel would still be emitting ~14.4% more CO2.

As for biodiesel, when I last looked, VW only approved of a maximum of B5 (5% biodiesel) that meet industry standards.

As I said, non-hybrids and cars w/o auto-start/stop systems uselessly burn fuel while stopped/idling.

Absolutely! The good news is that TDI drivers, just like gasoline vehicle operators, can shut the engine off at intersections - both types of vehicles have manually-operated engine disabling equipment installed as standard equipment. And yes - it makes a noticeable improvement on fuel burn rate. And it's more than enough to buy a few extra ignition key switches (one of the weak items on late model TDIs even before becoming a manually-operated start/stop 'hybrid').

Ok, but those diesels can't creep along on electric only while in stop & go and low speeds. They can't run their AC when the engine's off. They have no regen. All braking energy is wasted as heat and brake dust.

Seems you missed a couple of points - Yes, automakers 'approve' 5% biodiesel. Note I said that biodiesel, changing injectors and computer programming provided a cleaner and more efficient car, but not necessarily a 'legal' one.

TDIs have been in the country long before 2012 models. If you want a direct side-by-side, go to Canada and grab a Smart gasser VS a Smart TDI. Otherwise, you're back to comparing that nasty Prius with a much better electric city bus. :lol:

For example - the standard gasoline car emits 112 grams CO2 per kilometer. The start-stop 'hybrid' on the gas engine lowers CO2 to about 103 g/km. The stock diesel emits 88 g/km. All of these are in Euro service (2007 numbers) with their higher cetane fuel.

It's ok if you don't like diesels - they're not the be-all and end-all technology either. When I bought my Passat wagon, I was on the road (20,000-30,000 miles per year) and needed to haul items 7 feet long to trade shows and also move 30 gallon drums. Most people in this situation drive various flavors of pickup trucks and are happy if they occasionally get 20 mpg. My worst tank ever was 36 mpg and careful driving brings 50.

What fuel economy do you expect from an 8 year old Prius with more than 300,000 miles when loaded with three 30-gallon drums of oil, 10 cases of quarts, and about 20 pounds of assorted filters?

Different tools are more appropriate than others for different jobs.

 

[Herm]

That Wave II sure is interesting.. but I can imagine all the complaints in the usual car forums.

http://www.li-ionmotors.com/WAVEII/features.php?sub=key-innovations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[davewill]

The title of this thread only says 'car', not ICE. If the OP wanted to just compare ICEs with the LEAF, then they need it to say "ICE car".

From the first post:

Since I've been driving an EV for over 9 years, I have no idea what ICE vehicles are true comparisons to the Volt and LEAF.

He seemed pretty clear to me.