Was I wrong to buy a car with CHAdeMO?

[LeftieBiker]

Between low-ish speed DC charging, rapid/cold gating and the state of CHAdeMO, I think if fair to say that the LEAF is not a general purpose car for most people.

I'd say that a use case in which QC is only needed 5-10% of the time does qualify an EV for "main vehicle" status. It makes more sense to me to have a Leaf and a CRV or Venza than it does to have a Tesla for 25% more and still have to rent a truck or van occasionally. Unless of course you can easily afford the extra $ and love the Tesla. In that case I'd probably just buy a good used compact pickup truck as well.

 

[jjeff]

Between low-ish speed DC charging, rapid/cold gating and the state of CHAdeMO, I think if fair to say that the LEAF is not a general purpose car for most people.

If you mean it’s not suited to be an ONLY car for most people, then I agree. If you mean it’s not suited to be a MAIN car for most people, then I disagree.

The distinction you make is valid although mostly academic.

I just went through this for my family's cars. I love my Tesla Model 3 for its looks and dynamics and all the things that make Tesla fantastic, but it does not replace a truck. I debated selling it for a future Tesla that handles longer trips even better than the Model 3, and buying a truck when a PHEV comes to market. But then I will have spent $30 - $40k for a vehicle that gets used a couple times a month. In the end I realized that a Model Y handles 90% of my 'truck' jobs; a hitch handles 90% of the remainder, and the last 1% will be a rental.

The point here is that an underutilized, corner case vehicle is expensive, so people match their main vehicle to the spectrum of their expected usages.

Yes I have to laugh at 98% of the people in my neighborhood that own a 1/2 or more ton PU only to use it 98% of the time to commute to work or shop for groceries! I'm a firm believer in a decent trailer and vehicle with a tow hitch. Kind of the same thing when it comes to 4WD or as they now call it AWD, the vast majority of people with AWD need it like 3-4 times/year and the rest of the time they drive around in 2WD. That said our next vehicle will be a Rav4 PHEV which should give us ~40 miles of EV range for 85% of our driving followed by close to 40mpg for our long trips and the ability to tow my 1/2 ton trailer for heavy or bulky things. We also like the Rav4 because of the ride height for easy getting in and out of. Of course some people really need a PU but the VAST majority it's just the popular thing to own :roll:

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

The EA station which opened by my house in Skokie uses the same cable for the ccs as the chademo handle. Just a different connector.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Oddly, in model railroading, the standards are sane: in 1935, a group of model railroaders looked at the state of the hobby, with every manufacturer having a slightly different set of standards, most of them mutually compatible enough to kind-of, sort-of work together, but not enough to do so with any kind of reliability, and they decided to do something about it. So they formed the National Model Railroad Association, invented the concept of open standards, and convinced most of the manufacturers that aspired to produce serious hobby products that they were better off following the free-to-use NMRA standards. And that's what took model railroading from a hobby where most of the time was spent modifying things to work together, to a hobby where most of the time is spent pursuing greater realism, both in appearance and in operation. And even die-hard outliers like Märklin eventually began offering NMRA-compatible product lines.

And then, after decades of various manufacturers marketing proprietary "command control" systems to allow multiple locomotives to operate independently on the same track, and the eventual emergence of a sort-of-open-source system that an advanced electronic hobbyist could build, a German manufacturer ultimately ended up donating their basic standard to the NMRA, which refined and expanded it, and made it free for anybody to implement.

Rather a pity that we don't have that kind of a situation where level-3 EV charging is concerned. But we do have it for level-1 and level-2.

Be that as it may, I don't sweat the competing mutually incompatible level-3 charging standards, probably because in 9 months, I've never had a reason to plug into a level-3 charging station. The trip distance when I start looking for a way to get where I'm going by train is less than half my nominal range. If I'm going to a concert at Disney Hall or Hollywood Bowl, or to the museums in Exposition Park, I'll park at the Wardlow Blue-Line station, and take MetroRail. If I'm going to the San Diego Zoo, or the Spreckels Organ Pavilion, I'll park at the Irvine Amtrak station and catch the Surfliner, and then take the trolley and a bus to Balboa Park. And if I'm actually going someplace that's beyond half my range, that can't be reached by train (e.g., the San Diego Wild Animal Park [now officially the San Diego Zoo Safari Park]), well, I'll probably want to spend the night anyway. And the Wild Animal Park does have charging stations in its parking lot. As does, I believe, at least one local drugstore.

 

[cwerdna]

I know of no vehicles shipping in the US with CCS from Daimler,

https://electrek.co/2021/05/25/we-drove-daimlers-electric-trucks-and-want-them-everywhere/

Discontinued in 2019 was the Smart Car electric.

Neither gen of that vehicle for the US market could even be DC fast charged. I've physically plugged in and unplugged gen 1 numerous times at public L2 charging.

There's a gen 2 at my work. Gen 2 has a weird bug where IIRC, if the car's locked, if you plug it in, it won't charge. This breaks the whole plugsharing thing at my work where charging door open == plug me in. We're supposed to plug in waiting cars around us when we unplug cars that are done charging.

I've talked to the driver of that gen 2 before about this.

 

[cwerdna]

What other major non-Tesla charging provider in the US before EA began installing or in the past two or three years has been taking steps like EA to basically make consumers and automakers want to shy away from CHAdeMO?

Automakers were mostly CCS before EA.

Name those models in the US before EA. You dodged the question about networks.

Prior to EA deploying a single public station, there weren't that many actual CCS1 vehicles in terms of quantity in the US. Spark EV was discontinued and was a CA compliance car + maybe 1 or 2 states near the end. BMW i3 was the 2nd CCS1 capable vehicle followed by e-Golf (CARB compliance car). Bolt EV is the largest volume I can think of up until that point. Focus Electric didn't get CCS until gen 2 which sold in tiny quantities like gen 1 until it was killed.

For i3, CCS was an option IIRC until it eventually became standard. For eGolf, IIRC, it was the opposite where later they came out w/a cheaper trim w/o CCS. On Bolt EV, it was CCS was always an option in the US until model year '22.

HyunKia is still only doing CARB compliance cars. Look at the puny sales of Ioniq Electric in the US in 2017 and 2018 at https://insideevs.com/news/344007/monthly-plug-in-ev-sales-scorecard-historical-charts/. For ages, Ioniq EV was So Cal only virtual vaporware until it finally branched out to CARB states.

Gen 1 Kia Soul EV was CHAdeMO. Gen 2 never made it to the US.

 

[WetEV]

What other major non-Tesla charging provider in the US before EA began installing or in the past two or three years has been taking steps like EA to basically make consumers and automakers want to shy away from CHAdeMO?

Automakers were mostly CCS before EA.

Name the models in the US. You dodged the question about networks.

I don't think that EA's network matters much. Most of the cars under development were CCS.

 

[cwerdna]

Automakers were mostly CCS before EA.

Name the models in the US. You dodged the question about networks.

I don't think that EA's network matters much. Most of the cars under development were CCS.

I can't speak to that for all vehicles that ended up shipping with CCS1 in the US, but for the vehicles that were going to be made available in Europe, they pretty much had to offer CCS2 in Europe. But, for some, the automaker had to support 3 DC FC plugs in the end: CCS1 for the US and Canada, CCS2 for Europe and CHAdeMO for Japan. That's the case for eGolf, i3 and will be true for Ariya, at least.

 

[SageBrush]

I can't speak to that for all vehicles that ended up shipping with CCS1 in the US

When EA disclosed to CARB and EPA its intentions to preferentially build CCS (and only add token CHAdeMO, mostly as a justification to snub Tesla), the then current and near future EV manufacturers were apparently fine with the plan because not one word of criticism was ever registered.

WetEV is right -- CHAdeMO was in caretaker mode (at best!) way before dieselgate.

 

[GerryAZ]

Several USA auto manufacturers got together with SAE and IEEE to push the CCS standard early on as a way to make CHAdeMO vehicles less desirable in the USA for marketing purposes. I almost cancelled my IEEE membership when they were pushing hard for CCS because I considered the CCS connector to be inferior to CHAdeMO. When VW/EA proposed mostly CCS units, there was not much point for Nissan (as one of the few with CHAdeMO) to protest. Most EVgo chargers in the Phoenix area have two cables (CCS and CHAdeMO) even though only one can be used at a time. Before I purchased the 2019 SL Plus, I used DCQC frequently and often found the CCS connectors on EVgo units broken (which was good for me because I did not need to wait my turn to charge). Generally, the latch would be broken because the latch was sized for the J1772 standard. Also, the DC power connections in the CCS plug were small. The CHAdeMO connector is robust, has a secure latching system, and is clearly designed to safely handle the high DC current. I have not looked at the higher current CCS units so I don't know if the connectors have been improved. I rarely need to visit public charging stations now and don't even have an account with EA.

 

[cwerdna]

Before I purchased the 2019 SL Plus, I used DCQC frequently and often found the CCS connectors on EVgo units broken (which was good for me because I did not need to wait my turn to charge). Generally, the latch would be broken because the latch was sized for the J1772 standard. Also, the DC power connections in the CCS plug were small. The CHAdeMO connector is robust, has a secure latching system, and is clearly designed to safely handle the high DC current. I have not looked at the higher current CCS units so I don't know if the connectors have been improved.

As a CCS user now, the latch/tang on CCS connectors is not that infrequently broken. Have hit it at EVgo stations and multiple times at different EA sites. I call those in when I spot them. Another former Bolt driver (he got his car bought back) who got a Taycan many months before he even tried for buyback also spots and calls those in.

And, with numerous vehicles w/the heavy https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/products/low-and-high-voltage/cable-systems/high-power-charging-systems/radox-hpc500 that EA uses, you need to support the cable and handle until it's locked to the car (https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/ea-makes-a-video-on-how-to-prop-up-the-cable.36757/), otherwise the session may fail to start.

At least once a week, if not more often, I see complaints about EA on chevybolt.org or Bolt FB groups about EA "not working". Usually, it's one of two errors or both: not propping up the cable (they don't know) or using their crap credit card readers. It annoys me about all the hatred and vitriol I sometimes see in those circles (and TMC too) about CHAdeMO and Leaf. CHAdeMO has been around a few years longer to evolve and got over its initially crappy handles too. CHAdeMO doesn't have this need to prop up problem...

Also, some of those same people don't bother (or don't know about) checking Plugshare first...

 

[WetEV]

Name the models in the US. You dodged the question about networks.

I don't think that EA's network matters much. Most of the cars under development were CCS.

I can't speak to that for all vehicles that ended up shipping with CCS1 in the US, but for the vehicles that were going to be made available in Europe, they pretty much had to offer CCS2 in Europe. But, for some, the automaker had to support 3 DC FC plugs in the end: CCS1 for the US and Canada, CCS2 for Europe and CHAdeMO for Japan. That's the case for eGolf, i3 and will be true for Ariya, at least.

CCS1 and CCS2 are very similar. Chademo is rather different.

 

[SageBrush]

CCS1 and CCS2 are very similar.

About as similar as Type 2 and J1772

 

[cwerdna]

And, with numerous vehicles w/the heavy https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/products/low-and-high-voltage/cable-systems/high-power-charging-systems/radox-hpc500 that EA uses, you need to support the cable and handle until it's locked to the car (https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/ea-makes-a-video-on-how-to-prop-up-the-cable.36757/), otherwise the session may fail to start.

At least once a week, if not more often, I see complaints about EA on chevybolt.org or Bolt FB groups about EA "not working". Usually, it's one of two errors or both: not propping up the cable (they don't know) or using their crap credit card readers. It annoys me about all the hatred and vitriol I sometimes see in those circles (and TMC too) about CHAdeMO and Leaf. CHAdeMO has been around a few years longer to evolve and got over its initially crappy handles too. CHAdeMO doesn't have this need to prop up problem...

Also, some of those same people don't bother (or don't know about) checking Plugshare first...

Like clockwork, today someone at https://www.facebook.com/groups/chevyboltevowners supposedly 700 miles from home at an unspecified charging network couldn't charge.

Multiple suggestions come forth including Plugshare and holding up the handle. Sure enough, it was EA, they didn't know to support the handle and that worked for them.

 

[CptVimes]

I have no experience with these adapters and don't know if they're reliable or if there are competitors out there. I found this online and hope it'll be useful to you.

Portable CHAdeMO or CCS Combo DC Quick Charger:
https://www.evseadapters.com/products/portable-chademo-ccs-combo-dc-quick-charger/

 

[LeftieBiker]

I can see few if any situations in which that thing would actually be useful. It looks pretty close to a scam. All you really need is a J-1772 EVSE with the correct plug/adapters for the outlet(s) you will be using. The situation may be a little different in Europe, but the voltage mentioned indicates North America.

It also weighs, according to the one actual review, 50lbs.

EDIT: Ok, now I see. This is for EVs with 3.3 kw onboard chargers and DC Fast Charge ports. It lets them charge faster, by using their QC ports. EVs with 6.6 kw or faster OBCs see no significant benefit. As I like to say, a bargain (if it were) at half the cost.

 

[SageBrush]

I can see few if any situations in which that thing would actually be useful. It looks pretty close to a scam.

The vendor has an excellent reputation. Useful product it may not be, but it is most certainly not a scam.

It appears to me to be a box that takes AC input via a J1772 connection and outputs DC to either CHAdeMO or CCS at up to 10 kW. It could e.g. interest EV owners with 3.0 or 6.0 kW on-board chargers that have a DC port. Ignoring the J1772 input as a side-show, it amounts to a 10 kW DC charger. Not enough to interest me, but hopefully the start of low cost DC chargers in the 20 - 30 kW range.

 

[GerryAZ]

It looks like a good unit for what it is. It would definitely charge a car with 3.3 kW onboard charger much faster than using the onboard charger. It says the standard input plug is 14-50--I was actually starting to look for the possibility of purchasing something like this when I was still driving my 2011, but they were not available back then. I gave up the idea after I had to replace the 2011 with the 2015 because the 6 kW onboard charger was much faster. It would take something that needed more than a 50-ampere receptacle to be significantly faster than the 6 kW onboard charger.

 

[jjeff]

.... It would take something that needed more than a 50-ampere receptacle to be significantly faster than the 6 kW onboard charger.

And since a 60a is the max for a 240v receptacle it would have to be hard-wired for more.

 

[SageBrush]

It would take something that needed more than a 50-ampere receptacle to be significantly faster than the 6 kW onboard charger.

If it could output the entire max input of 240 v * 40 Amps = 9.6 kW it would be ~ 50% faster than the current LEAF OBC but someone posted above that the output is limited to 20 Amps, thus making it for practical purposes a ~ 7.2 kW charger

If we ever see a portable, 50 Amp iteration for around $5k it will interest me, and I presume enough other people to make a market. I'm not thinking of home use, but as charging infrastructure for rural America and perhaps commercial siting.