Volt Vs. Leaf practical range comparison

[leafarmer]

Only real point of my post was to brag on having 3 EV's :lol:

Well, I've only got one of each, but I generally agree with the practical range arguments. The Volt's battery range cycles from 0% to 100% and back all the time, while the Leaf's stays between 1 and 10 bars most of the time. I'm far more careful with trip planning and more likely to seek out opportunity charges with the Leaf, which is sometimes a hassle. With the Volt its easy to procrastinate and rely on a little bit of gas. But, that little bit of gas buys quite a bit of flexibility.

After 1.5 years with the Leaf and half that long with the Volt, I'm finding the Volt getting more use.

 

[edatoakrun]

I asked earlier:

I had the impression that all miles driven with the engine off are counted as "electric", whether the energy that increases the charge level to the engine-disengage-battery-capacity level comes from the engine, regenerative braking, or a stationary grid charge. Would someone with Volt knowledge please explain?

Since I haven't received a reply yet, I'll restate the question, more explicitly.

When do Volt miles stop being tallied as "electric miles driven", when put in a "mode" (or modes) as DANandNAN has stated, or when the gas engine actually starts?

When do Volt miles start being tallied as "electric" again? Is it when the gas engine stops running?

Or, if this is triggered by other events, what exactly are those events, that trigger the accounting change?

 

[smkettner]

I can't get past the price difference. If Nissan had put the price difference to Volt into a battery then you would have a real range comparison. You may as well put Tesla in the usable range comparison as if price does not matter. Otherwise by getting LEAF instead of Volt I already have saved ~12,000 to go toward the eventual battery replacement.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I can't get past the price difference. If Nissan had put the price difference to Volt into a battery then you would have a real range comparison. You may as well put Tesla in the usable range comparison as if price does not matter. Otherwise by getting LEAF instead of Volt I already have saved ~12,000 to go toward the eventual battery replacement.

u save more than that. one thing that seems missing from this conversation although mentioned several times is that if it burns gas, then it has an ICE maintenance schedule.

 

[scottf200]

When do Volt miles start being tallied as "electric" again? Is it when the gas engine stops running?

If you run your battery down to 0 EV miles left (CD/ChargeDepletion) then the car switches to gas mode (CS/Charge Sustaining) then all miles count toward that. Even if you go down a hill and regen some miles or drive around the suburb as slow speeds where the ICE turns off or travel at 55 where a small buffer builds up and the ICE turns off ... the counter still goes to gas miles. Your CD/EV miles are what comes from the socket.

(Aside: I am quite sure that this is not how the PiP works. I think it switches back and forth between counting EV miles and gas miles counting.)

I went to a car show over the weekend with speeds in the 40-50 MPH range (with stoplight) and got there at 49 electric miles and 1 mile remaining on the battery.

 

[DANandNAN]

I asked earlier:

I had the impression that all miles driven with the engine off are counted as "electric", whether the energy that increases the charge level to the engine-disengage-battery-capacity level comes from the engine, regenerative braking, or a stationary grid charge. Would someone with Volt knowledge please explain?

Since I haven't received a reply yet, I'll restate the question, more explicitly.

When do Volt miles stop being tallied as "electric miles driven", when put in a "mode" (or modes) as DANandNAN has stated, or when the gas engine actually starts?

When do Volt miles start being tallied as "electric" again? Is it when the gas engine stops running?

Or, if this is triggered by other events, what exactly are those events, that trigger the accounting change?

I guess I could elaborate. On a trip, once in CS ALL miles are counted as CS. If you stop and charge then those EV miles are counted as EV.

 

[DANandNAN]

I can't get past the price difference. If Nissan had put the price difference to Volt into a battery then you would have a real range comparison. You may as well put Tesla in the usable range comparison as if price does not matter. Otherwise by getting LEAF instead of Volt I already have saved ~12,000 to go toward the eventual battery replacement.

u save more than that. one thing that seems missing from this conversation although mentioned several times is that if it burns gas, then it has an ICE maintenance schedule.

The recommended maintenance is oil changes every 2 years. In exchange for that you get a 40 mile EV and a back up plan that you carry with you.

 

[ztanos]

I can't get past the price difference. If Nissan had put the price difference to Volt into a battery then you would have a real range comparison. You may as well put Tesla in the usable range comparison as if price does not matter. Otherwise by getting LEAF instead of Volt I already have saved ~12,000 to go toward the eventual battery replacement.

u save more than that. one thing that seems missing from this conversation although mentioned several times is that if it burns gas, then it has an ICE maintenance schedule.

The recommended maintenance is oil changes every 2 years. In exchange for that you get a 40 mile EV and a back up plan that you carry with you.

I'm not going to say that the Volt isn't a good car. It seems like a great concept. I would get one... if I trusted GM engineering. I hate saying this as my grandfather retired from Lordstown, Ohio. I have a 2001 Saturn which is a GM product. It has the same transmission as some of the Olds Aleros had. This transmission is a known faulty product and as such I have had to have it rebuilt twice in 155,000 miles. Now, I know that all manufacturers will have their issues, but with the LEAF I know that there isn't going to be anything major to replace, as there isn't really anything left in the car. Yes, electronics can fail, but as far as the motor is concerned, it should be good to go for a long long while.

I have never talked bad about the Volt and you have actually told me about the maintenance cycles, so thanks for that. If anybody asks me about it, I tell them that it is a good car. I just am ready to be done with transmissions, so I want a car that doesn't have one. :lol:

 

[edatoakrun]

="scottf200"If you run your battery down to 0 EV miles left (CD/ChargeDepletion) then the car switches to gas mode (CS/Charge Sustaining) then all miles count toward that. Even if you go down a hill and regen some miles or drive around the suburb as slow speeds where the ICE turns off or travel at 55 where a small buffer builds up and the ICE turns off ... the counter still goes to gas miles...

="scottf200"...Your CD/EV miles are what comes from the socket...

Your two statements above, appear to contradict each other.

Why not simply report how many gallons of gas and how many kWh are used, for all the miles encompassing a given trip, day, month, or longer period, rather than trying to estimate "electric" miles?

The total amount of both fuels actually used, is really the only legitimate standard for judging the efficiency of a bi-fuel vehicle, IMO.

 

[smkettner]

The recommended maintenance is oil changes every 2 years. In exchange for that you get a 40 mile EV and a back up plan that you carry with you.

I wonder how many still get a sticker that says 3000 miles or 3 months :roll:

 

[DANandNAN]

Now, I know that all manufacturers will have their issues, but with the LEAF I know that there isn't going to be anything major to replace, as there isn't really anything left in the car. Yes, electronics can fail, but as far as the motor is concerned, it should be good to go for a long long while.

Want to bet a $15K battery pack on that

Seriously though, I'd lease if I were you. And, I am in the same situation because, as you know, we're looking for a 2nd EV and for variety and the extra 20-25 extra miles of EV range the Leaf was top of the list (it's tougher now because the Volt is $200/mo 24 mo Zero down).

 

[DANandNAN]

Why not simply report how many gallons of gas and how many kWh are used, for all the miles encompassing a given trip, day, month, or longer period, rather than trying to estimate "electric" miles?

The total amount of both fuels actually used, is really the only legitimate standard for judging the efficiency of a bi-fuel vehicle, IMO.

I dunno why the Volt doesn't, but the Volt's on-board computer doesn't. It separates the J1772 electricity from the on-board generator produced electricity. If you charge (J1772) after burning gas it adds that charge to the EV miles but when that's depleted it goes back to the CS count. The Volt owners page gives more info, as does Voltstats.com.

 

[DANandNAN]

The recommended maintenance is oil changes every 2 years. In exchange for that you get a 40 mile EV and a back up plan that you carry with you.

I wonder how many still get a sticker that says 3000 miles or 3 months :roll:

Already received an 3 month oil change coupon from our local dealer And, yes, it expires 18 months too soon

 

[scottf200]

="scottf200"If you run your battery down to 0 EV miles left (CD/ChargeDepletion) then the car switches to gas mode (CS/Charge Sustaining) then all miles count toward that. Even if you go down a hill and regen some miles or drive around the suburb as slow speeds where the ICE turns off or travel at 55 where a small buffer builds up and the ICE turns off ... the counter still goes to gas miles...

="scottf200"...Your CD/EV miles are what comes from the socket...

Your two statements above, appear to contradict each other.
Why not simply report how many gallons of gas and how many kWh are used, for all the miles encompassing a given trip, day, month, or longer period, rather than trying to estimate "electric" miles? The total amount of both fuels actually used, is really the only legitimate standard for judging the efficiency of a bi-fuel vehicle, IMO.

BatteryIcon/electric miles (CD) are only miles that are from the grid/plug/J1772. This is clear and accurate. Your question seemed like you were just looking for something to twist or be negative about. I could be wrong.

2011 display with Batt/EV/CD_miles & gas/CS_miles and Total_miles

2012 display with above plus added kWh

 

[SanDust]

Volt drivers pre-select themselves, and may be disproportionately short-range drivers. So it's not surprising the "electric" miles driven make up a relatively large proportion of their total miles. this doesn't mean you can extrapolate to a universal population of drivers.

Well, I could be wrong. I had the impression that all miles driven with the engine off are counted as "electric", whether the energy that increases the charge level to the engine-disengage-battery-capacity level comes from the engine, regenerative braking, or a stationary grid charge. Would someone with Volt knowledge please explain?

The numbers on the daily driving were for all drivers, not Volt or Leaf drivers.

On the electric miles, I think we're both confusing the source of the electricity with the electricity. In thinking about this, 100% of all the Volt miles are electric. The issue is whether that electricity comes from the grid or from the generator. It would be more precise to call the miles "grid miles" and "generator miles" rather than "electric miles" and "ICE miles".

What the studies are telling us is that a Volt will give the average driver more grid miles a year than a Leaf will. Counter intuitive but that's what the numbers suggest.

 

[SanDust]

I can't get past the price difference. If Nissan had put the price difference to Volt into a battery then you would have a real range comparison. You may as well put Tesla in the usable range comparison as if price does not matter. Otherwise by getting LEAF instead of Volt I already have saved ~12,000 to go toward the eventual battery replacement.

The prices aren't very different now. That's one reason Leaf sales are sucking air.

u save more than that. one thing that seems missing from this conversation although mentioned several times is that if it burns gas, then it has an ICE maintenance schedule.

It has a generator maintenance schedule, which is very different. Seems like the Leaf's maintenance is more expensive. With the Volt it's an oil change every two years. With the Leaf it's a brake flush every two years. I think the brake flush is more expensive.

I wonder how many still get a sticker that says 3000 miles or 3 months :roll:

No doubt. I've gotten at least one notice saying the oil needs changing from the Nissan dealer.

 

[WetEV]

I wonder how many still get a sticker that says 3000 miles or 3 months :roll:

No doubt. I've gotten at least one notice saying the oil needs changing from the Nissan dealer.

Sign at dealership. "All new cars sold come with a full tank of gas and two years free oil changes." I asked if that included the Leaf.

 

[smkettner]

Sign at dealership. "All new cars sold come with a full tank of gas and two years free oil changes." I asked if that included the Leaf.

My LEAF was delivered with a full charge. Even some gasoline cars may not need an oil change in two years if you do not drive much.

 

[ztanos]

Now, I know that all manufacturers will have their issues, but with the LEAF I know that there isn't going to be anything major to replace, as there isn't really anything left in the car. Yes, electronics can fail, but as far as the motor is concerned, it should be good to go for a long long while.

Want to bet a $15K battery pack on that

Seriously though, I'd lease if I were you. And, I am in the same situation because, as you know, we're looking for a 2nd EV and for variety and the extra 20-25 extra miles of EV range the Leaf was top of the list (it's tougher now because the Volt is $200/mo 24 mo Zero down).

Yeah, I know it's a gamble, but I feel that even if the battery only lasts 5 years that the price is going to come down. Sure it still won't be cheap, but if I can get a battery to last 100,000 miles (which since I drive 20k/year just driving to work and back, shouldn't be that hard to do) and say the battery is still at a high point of around 8k then it isn't that far off the 3k I spent on a transmission at 60k on my saturn. Plus I had to do oil changes, spark plugs, air filter (note: I cheated and bought a K&N, so I only had to buy 1, but still expensive (double note: I guess this evens out since my saturn doesn't have a cabin air filter and the LEAF does)) and gas which is something I would have to do in the Volt (even if not that often.) I know how ICE engines work and I think it is, also, a gamble to just let the gas engine sit for the majority of the year without being run. I know that the maintenance mode is supposed to take care of that, but gas still turns bad over time, seals wear out and the biggest one for me is that transmissions go bad. I imagine that with the complexity of the Volt transmission, it would cost far more than my dinky saturn transmission did. So now we aren't too far off. Just my 2 cents.

I do think that the Volt is a great transition car. For people that do drive great distances it is, also, great. I think the technology is complete, just limited to the inefficiencies of the ICE platform. I do believe that GM is making a better effort than Toyota, but I have heard rumblings that Toyota is going to be putting out a full EV in the next two years (I know a guy that works for Toyota R&D, but he has told me things that have ended up being wrong before) so we will have to see how dedicated GM is to continuing this. I don't agree with GM on the "lets create a new plug that incorporates both but isn't better than either" platform. I feel like if they were going to rewrite the EV code they should have made it the best possible thing, instead of just going with something smaller but not better. But I think we've had this argument before too, so moving on.

 

[smkettner]

I can't get past the price difference. If Nissan had put the price difference to Volt into a battery then you would have a real range comparison. You may as well put Tesla in the usable range comparison as if price does not matter. Otherwise by getting LEAF instead of Volt I already have saved ~12,000 to go toward the eventual battery replacement.

The prices aren't very different now. That's one reason Leaf sales are sucking air.

Yes and I wonder if the initial price we paid for LEAF was a bit of a premium as is typical during a product launch.
It will be interesting where the 2013 model pricepoint ends up. Already $5,000 off 2012 model at some dealers.