Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[TomT]

Or at least until the built-in over-temp protection in the BMS shuts it down... High density altitude is good for Leaf efficiency, however... Where's my E6B! :lol:

Folks driving their LEAF aren't going to be constrained by FAR Part 121, and will drive regardless of the temperature.

 

[edatoakrun]

I'm sure they they will prudently adopt a wait and see attitude... Remember the old adage about "Fool me once..."

What do the "I will never buy a BEV without ATM", and "The LEAF would be a great car, if it only had ATM" party members have to say in response?

The same clueless clown also wrote this:

The good news? I finally lost my first capacity bar the morning after the Vacaville DC charge, at ~20,700 miles.
And still my LEAF still shows no significant loss of range, but I'll post more on that on an appropriate thread.

Too bad for you Tony, that you don't actually have a LEAF to drive now, and never learned how to use CarWings to monitor kWh use both from the grid and from regen in either of your two LEAFs, so you probably never will understand what was really going on during your short time driving LEAFs, during which you were relying on the inaccurate dash m/kWh "gauge" and gid meter for data.

So, as a victim of "gauge error" you were never able to get accurate range/capacity data from all your time driving LEAFs in circles, and spent your time in your LEAFs "chasing your tail" as some might say...

I am glad I lost a bar, since it is apparently Nissan's policy to use bar loss as the qualification for battery upgrade under its warrant/replacement policies, even though they know the bar display is a highly inaccurate indication of available battery capacity.

So, yes, I certainly would want to lose my capacity bars as fast as possible.

Of course, I'm even more glad that it looks like my capacity bars are significantly (in Nissan's parlance) "pessimistic", as seems to be the case for most or all hot and warm climate LEAFs.

I'd hate to be an unfortunate LEAF driver whose capacity bars were "optimistic" rather than "pessimistic", and did not lose capacity bars at the same rate as my LEAFs actual available capacity loss, and so was not able to benefit from Nissan's capacity warranty.

 

[surfingslovak]

I'm still bugged by the official statements that refer to the current problem as "isolated", or "only affecting a very small number of users", or "only shows up in batteries exposed to extreme heat". We're already having Florida LEAF owners with two capacity bars lost after only 18 months of use. We're on the opposite side of the country from Phoenix and it looks like we're headed down the same path they are.

I don't appreciate that either, although I can see how this can be useful when trying to present the issue in a better light. It's interesting to hear about Florida, since the modeling we worked on together last year indicated that both FL and HI wouldn't be far behind AZ in terms of temperature impact. It's not the hot extremes that play into this, it's the lack of a cool down period. The underlying chemical reactions in the battery run at a pretty good clip in these climates and never slow down. I think both of these locations would benefit from an improved battery chemistry, even though they are not specifically mentioned or called out.

 

[dhanson865]

His comment is no more inappropriate than yours was. Having owned 3 different Priuses and being fairly well aware of the 2004 Prius launch forward, i can say with strong conviction that there was near ZERO concern among owners over battery replacement issues.

I think we can all agree that fact alone pretty much takes Prius battery pricing at any time out of the discussion

Dave did you spend much time at Priuschat? I know I did and still do. I still remember all the threads where some poor helpless soul took their car to a dealer who told them they would need thousands of dollars worth of parts + thousands of dollars worth of labor to fix their car. Usually some helpful soul at priuschat would suggest a cheaper fix and the thread would end with:

A. Toyota ate the cost of the repair under warranty or some other policy decision
B. The user bought the expensive part from a junk yard or a rebuilder
C. The diagnosis from the dealer was incorrect and the issue was fixed by replacing something other than the very expensive battery.

but none of those results change the fact that someone came to the forum for help because some dealer gave them a crazy high price to fix their Prius. And in most cases those crazy high prices included a very high cost battery. I guarantee you those people were concerned about the price given to them.

The only way you can say the prius battery price wasn't ever discussed or posted or concerned about by people with a Prius is if you ignore all the people that don't post on priuschat on a regular basis. Including the ones that post once, twice, or five times until the issue is resolved and then never come back.

Do you really want me to go digging up thread after thread like that?

Do you not see the relevance to this discussion given that the Leaf is having similar discussions about battery replacements years after Prius users went through a very similar process?

The nice thing for Prius users is that it was a smaller less vocal percentage that had issues with their battery needing to be replaced and Toyota stood behind those users in a higher percentage of the cases but the number wasn't zero.

 

[TomT]

Deleted.

 

[mwalsh]

Here's some more info on the new battery. Apparently there is to be a change in the separator material, from polypropylene to ceramic coated polypropylene. This according to a report on streetinsider.com

http://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst+Comments/Polypore+%28PPO%29+Likely+to+Continue+as+Supplier+for+Nissan+Leaf+Battery/8637838.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JPWhite]

JP, I believe that should be possible. The NEC R&D report Stoaty linked upthread added some sulphur into the electrolyte for increased heat tolerance. Nothing was said about cycle life, if I recall correctly. Although there could be a change in that characteristic because of this addition, I wouldn't expect anything dramatic.

Hope you're right. I was working from recall of an article I read at Battery University. I remembered three factors, there are six. Seems my brain is degrading, I'd be willing to pay $100/month for a perpetual new brain, and they can keep my old one

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/explaining_lithium_ion_chemistries

If you look at the spider web diagrams it seems if one factor of chemistry is improved, another suffers. In other words you can't have your cake and eat it. It seems from one of mwalsh's posts they have made improvements beyond just tweaking the chemistry, so lets hope they have improved most factors simultaneously.

 

[surfingslovak]

Here's some more info on the new battery. Apparently there is to be a change in the separator material, from polypropylene to ceramic coated polypropylene. This according to a report on streetinsider.com

http://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst+Comments/Polypore+%28PPO%29+Likely+to+Continue+as+Supplier+for+Nissan+Leaf+Battery/8637838.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Excellent catch, Mike! So it looks like there will be physical changes in addition to the tweaks in the chemistry. I still cannot wrap my head around the scenario of multiple quick charges per day. How will the accumulated heat buildup be handled in the new battery? Through better conduction or will there perhaps be finally a fan in there somewhere? While the chemistry will withstand heat better, anyone traveling regionally or long-distance, will put more strain on the pack due to heat buildup. It would be great for the adoption of this technology, if the concerns around quick charging could be allayed.

 

[surfingslovak]

Hope you're right. I was working from recall of an article I read at Battery University. I remembered three factors, there are six. Seems my brain is degrading, I'd be willing to pay $100/month for a perpetual new brain, and they can keep my old one

Ah, yes, that explains it. I think those charts help represent and characterize different chemistry flavors, which all have their strengths and weaknesses. Nissan is presumably staying with the same basic chemistry, and is only going to tweak some of the ingredients to push the heat tolerance curve higher. While this could have an impact on energy density, I would not expect parameters such as cycle life to change very much because of this particular modification.

To use another somewhat inadequate example, if you compared three different lithium ion chemistry types to a strawberry cake, a cheesecake or a chocolate cake, they are all related but different, because of the the recipe, ingredients, composition and preparation. In the case of the hot battery, we are likely staying with the same cake type, only the recipe and the ingredients are changing to improve shelf life. The fundamental chemistry and its behavior should stay the same.

While I welcome this announcement, I'm cautiously optimistic. Who knows, perhaps LEAF owners will be able to have their cake and eat it too? ;-)

 

[TonyWilliams]

...if you compared three different lithium ion chemistry types to a strawberry cake, a cheesecake or a chocolate cake, they are all related but different, because of the the recipe, ingredients, composition and preparation.

But everybody knows that a chocolate cake is best, so why even make the others?

 

[TomT]

Make mine Red Velvet please.

But everybody knows that a chocolate cake is best, so why even make the others?

 

[TonyWilliams]

4. Any competitor to the Tesla products must have a robust quick recharging / battery swapping capability. My advice; buy into the Tesla Supercharger network. I will gladly pay the $1500 - $2500 for "free for life" recharging that I can use anywhere in North America.

I just wanted to add that my vision of the uber awesome EV would have both the CHAdeMO port and the Tesla Supercharger port that can use the standard Tesla adapter to use J1772.

 

[smkettner]

Nissan can build their own SC network. With 350 miles range Nissan will not need near as many like CHAdeMo.
I wonder what solar company Nissan will partner with

 

[mwalsh]

But everybody knows that a chocolate cake is best, so why even make the others?

But chocolate cake, like Nissan battery packs, will not fare well in the heat.

 

[Stoaty]

Sounds like the new battery pack may have the electrolyte mentioned in the more heat resistant battery in the research article I linked to, plus the new separator which probably accounts for the slightly increased cost. Even in southern California, I want one!

 

[TimLee]

Sounds like the new battery pack may have the electrolyte mentioned in the more heat resistant battery in the research article I linked to, plus the new separator which probably accounts for the slightly increased cost. Even in southern California, I want one!

I think eventually almost everyone will want / need one.
But if you've been unfortunate enough for your battery to have survived past the capacity warranty that Nissan gave us in settlement of the class action law suit, you might not be very happy with the rental price.
Hopefully they will make the price some function of miles driven. Otherwise for a low miles per year driver the $100 per month rental will exceed the savings from using electricity instead of gasoline. Of course it will take a while for the total lifetime cost to exceed the gasoline savings. But that's why the price needs to be a function of miles driven. Otherwise the electric vehicle total cost of ownership will exceed the cost of having bought an ICE in 2011. :shock:

 

[WetEV]

It is becoming more and more clear that it is completely unrealistic for most LEAF purchaser's total cost of ownership to be less than driving a comparable ICE that they purchase.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?style=0&f=30&t=9694#p220191" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The battery is a consumable, and future battery replacement needs to be accounted for in the cost of ownership.

To break even vs a smelly noisy jerky gasoline car isn't my goal, but if it was:

Battery cost per mile are going to be significant, for many people. Life will vary depending on temperature, the cost is unknown. But let us put some reasonable bounds on it.

Phoenix, AZ, for a 5,000 miles per year, battery EOL (End Of Life) of 70%, battery life of just more than 5 years (just missing the warranty) and 25,000 miles, high battery replacement cost of US$15000, cost per mile of $0.60
Juneau, AK, for 30,000 miles per year, EOL at 70%, battery life of about 10 years and 300k miles, low battery replacement cost of $4000, cost per mile of $0.013
Raleigh, NC, for 12,500 miles per year, EOL at 70%, battery life of about 9 years and 112,500 miles, mid replacement cost of $8000, cost per mile of $0.071

The above costs are of course for battery only, need to add several cents per mile for electric power, more for insurance, licenses, tires, etc..

Also, EOL might be high or lower than 70%. If the Phoenix driver could live with 50% EOL it would halve the cost per mile.

Compare with a Prius gas cost of $2, $4 and $6 and resulting costs per mile of $0.04, $0.08 and $0.12
At somewhere around $5 per gallon gasoline, the average driver might be close to breaking even on the battery+electric power vs gasoline. Someone in the Pacific NW that drives a reasonable number of miles (not too many and not too few) and can live with a 70% EOL and doesn't DCQC and doesn't deep cycle the battery and probably a long list of other items, that person might be ahead over the life of the car, if the gas price stays near the current $3.70 per gallon or $1/liter.

 

[TomT]

Yep, me too. My pack has been averaging around 88 degrees the last couple of weeks as we've had a couple of heat waves... I'd leave the Leaf outside at night where it is cooler than the garage but my EVSE is at the front of the garage and won't reach...

Sounds like the new battery pack may have the electrolyte mentioned in the more heat resistant battery in the research article I linked to, plus the new separator which probably accounts for the slightly increased cost. Even in southern California, I want one!

 

[JPWhite]

Yep, my pack has been averaging around 88 degrees the last couple of weeks as we've had a couple of heat waves... I'd leave the Leaf outside at night where it is cooler than the garage but my EVSE is at the front of the garage and won't reach...

I've found over the summer my battery staying 10-15F above ambient most of the time. It does retain heat for a long while after parking. Last night the battery was 91F when I plugged it in for its overnight charge at 9:30pm. Ambient was low 80's by then. The Battery was still 84F this morning while the garage was at 70F.

 

[smkettner]

Also, EOL might be high or lower than 70%. If the Phoenix driver could live with 50% EOL it would halve the cost per mile.

So what cost more...

A) 85 mile battery with EOL at 70% (60 miles)
B) 180 mile battery with EOL at 35% (63 miles)