Unofficial THINK City Thread

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Rokeby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
89
Location
Ballamer, Merlin
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All the good news about soon to be launched EVs is not coming solely
from the West Coast and the Far East. Europe's largest EV maker has
been quietly making preparations for its entry into this soon to be hotly
contested market segment:

NEW YORK, April 1 /PRNewswire/ -- Today, pioneering electric car
company THINK announced plans to begin selling the THINK City, one
of the world's first highway-capable electric vehicles (EVs), in New
York and other select cities later this year.  THINK and the U.S.
Department of Energy's local Clean Cities chapter are working together
to bring the THINK City electric vehicle to customers in New York.  
"New York is a logical early market for the THINK City in the U.S.,"
said THINK CEO Richard Canny.  "New York ranked third on our EV-
Ready Cities Index based on the great fit of EVs for city driving and
the strength of state and local government support."  

Today, New York City officials and several New York fleet operators
had a chance to test drive the zero-emissions electric car at a drive
event on Pier 7 in Brooklyn. The sophisticated lithium-ion battery
system that gives the car its range and reliability is made in the U.S.
by New York's own Ener1, Inc., one of the city's leading clean
technology companies.


More here.

April 1, 2010/CNET News -- Think's electric cars to roll into New York

Think will begin selling its all-electric City cars in the New York
metropolitan area within the coming months, the company said
Thursday.

Think's City model is a highway-legal electric vehicle that runs solely
on a lithium ion battery system and gives off zero emissions. The car,
which has a top speed of 60 mph, can be charged from either a
standard U.S. 110-volt household outlet, or a fast-charging 220-volt
station that can be installed for home use. The small two-door car,
clearly intended for city driving and parking, has a battery system
with a range of about 112 miles per charge.

Via the fast-charging 220-volt station, a Think City car can charge
from zero to 80 percent capacity in about 15 minutes. However, using
a standard household outlet can take up to eight hours.

Think's U.S. battery supplier, EnerDel, has been held up to the public
as an example of the U.S. stimulus package working successfully. The
Indiana-based battery manufacturer, which also has deals with Volvo,
Nissan, and Fisker Automotive, received $118.5 million in U.S.
stimulus grants. The money to expand its production facilities is
estimated to create 1,700 jobs.


More here.

More info on Think/Enerdel.

THINK, although going about its business quietly, is not sitting on its
corporate hands:

Elkhart goes to work building the world's best-selling electric car
[11/24/10]

Right now, 220 of the small cars, colored red, blue or black, are
aligned on the factory floor in neat rows and are in various stages of
completion. A handful of workers move from vehicle to vehicle, quietly
installing parts.

Think plans to produce 300 cars in Elkhart before the end of the year,
said company spokesman Brendan Prebo. Buyers are making orders to
add the cars to their fleets, including Indianapolis-based Energy
Systems Network which wants to purchase 200 of those initial cars for
its Project Plug-IN program.

In 2011, production will jump to 2,000 or 3,000 vehicles, Turner said.


I don't like that word "fleet."

It suggests that the initial release of the Think City will be, like the Ford
Transit Connect BEV, only to commercial users. Sales to consumers
maybe a year later.

Read more.

FWIW, The THINK City Electric Car - all electric and highway safe

This leaves as yet unanswered the one question that is on some
peoples mind but most car makers would rather not address...
"Can you have sex in this car?" :eek:
(Answer at 3:00)

Test/Review of the Think City electric car

Many THINK watchers would rather that the Think Ox, which is
more nearly the size of the LEAF, were the initial offering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65SQ-hnV1IM&feature=related
 
EVDRIVER,

That's very. very cool.

It is clear that the THINK City is not in the LEAF's class.
But that's OK, There are many different "needs" within the
population of potential EV buyers/users. This will surely
fill some of them.

Even though I am wholly unfamiliar with the car itself, I like
the sound of its being "simple," as in, I hope, minimal
electronic gizmos.

Can you take a minute or two to tell us why you remember this
peculiar little EV with such fondness...
Where were you in Europe when you owned it, etc?
What impressed you the most... the least?
How was the dealer/manufacturer support?
Miles/kilos per charge?
 
Rokeby said:
The car, which has a top speed of 60 mph, can be charged from either a standard U.S. 110-volt household outlet, or a fast-charging 220-volt station that can be installed for home use. The small two-door car, clearly intended for city driving and parking, has a battery system with a range of about 112 miles per charge.

Via the fast-charging 220-volt station, a Think City car can charge from zero to 80 percent capacity in about 15 minutes. However, using a standard household outlet can take up to eight hours.
Either somebody has mixed things up very badly here, or this is a revolutionary announcement. A fast-charging 220-volt station that can be installed for home use and charge 80% in about 15 minutes??
 
Technical Data from the THINK website:

Performance
Top speed 110 km/h
Acceleration 0-50km/h 6.5 seconds
Acceleration 0-80km/h 16.0 seconds
Typical charge time:
Lithium battery; 0-100% 8 hours.
Zebra battery; 0-80% 7 hours, 80-100% 4 hours.

Range 160 km (According to ECE-R101)

Dimensions
Length: 3143 mm
Width: 1658 mm
Height: 1596 mm
Wheel base: 1970mm
Track: 1374mm front/1424mm rear
Tires: 165/65 x 14
Turning diameter: 9m (turning radius 4.5m)

Weight
Battery weight: 245 - 260 kg
Kerb weight: 1038 kg
Payload 2 seater: 165 kg

Batteries
MES DEA – Zebra Sodium, 24 kWh
EnerDel, Lithium-ion, 23 kWh

Powertrain
Motor: 3 phase asyncron electric motor
Peak power, normal: 34kW
 
11/24/2010
TORRANCE, CA - THINK, a Scandinavian electric vehicle (EV) maker, plans to launch its
THINK City vehicle in the U.S. in the second quarter of 2011, according to Michael Lock,
chief marketing officer. THINK designs, develops, manufactures, and markets full battery
electric vehicles (BEV) and electric vehicle technologies, and has been doing so since the
early 1990s.

The THINK City, a modern urban vehicle, will be released in the U.S. as a two-seater model,
providing "healthy" cargo space, said Lock.

While 75 percent of its four-seater model sales in Europe have been derived from fleet
over the past year, Lock said the company plans to initially target the U.S. retail market
when it arrives in the U.S. next year with an MSRP ranging from approximately
$32,000-$33,000 (without incentives).

THINK City is highway-certified and can travel at a top speed of 70 mph and a 100-mile
range, Lock said. The vehicle weighs 2,200 lbs. Standard structural features of the
THINK City include the steel load bearing under-structure, plastic body panels, McPherson
front suspension, torsion rear suspension, front wheel drive with electric powertrain, and
single speed reduction gearbox...

THINK is in the process of determining its distribution channel and does not currently
have a dealer network. The company plans to market the vehicle in less conventional
methods, avoiding traditional auto show events.
"We're working on developing a
separate channel of distribution where you don't feel like you're going to a car dealer,"
said Lock.

Read more.

I wonder what they're thinking about for distribution/sales...
* treat it like a appliance and retail it at BestBuy...
* the back pages of The New Yorker, Smithsonian, Audubon, magazines
* mini-boutique stores a la Starbuck's
* a cozy corner at REI

[EDIT} Ahh, here's THINK's distribution strategy and plan:

Lock also revealed some of the previously missing critical details of the rollout—most
notably the price: just below $34,000 before incentives. He confirmed that 300 pre-sold
Think City cars will be delivered to fleets in Indiana and Maryland before the end of
this year.
By the middle of next year, Lock said, Think will complete its assembly
plant in Elkhart, Ind. and offer the first units to private customers.

Lock said that Think will sell just 2,000 to 3,000 cars in 2011 via three to five branded
stores in highly targeted city locations. The stores will probably be located in Southern
California, the San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, Washington, DC and Indianapolis,
near where the company will assemble the cars and where generous consumer incentives
will be available.

Competing Against Majors, In Cities

The Think City will find those 2,000 to 3,000 customers, according to Lock, if it's
positioned as a city car rather than an all-purpose vehicle, like the similarly priced
Nissan LEAF. What are the advantages for urban drivers? First, the Think City is small,
only a foot longer and a few inches wider than a Smart ForTwo. “I have a whole list of
cities, where there is hub of urban population who are saying I want utility, cleanliness,
ease of use, and I want a low stress experience.” He said the Think is also quick and
quiet, and has great visibility (via a large glass rear door) for parking, reversing, and
darting about town. The car’s plastic-panel body is scratch and ding resistant. “The
last time I looked, urban driving has become a contact sport,” Lock said.


Read more.

Now I wonder where I might find/contact the aforementioned THINK City fleets in
our beloved Maryland for a look-see and ride-along test drive.
 
Rokeby said:
Via the fast-charging 220-volt station, a Think City car can charge
from zero to 80 percent capacity in about 15 minutes. However, using
a standard household outlet can take up to eight hours.
planet4ever said:
Either somebody has mixed things up very badly here, or this is a revolutionary announcement.
A fast-charging 220-volt station that can be installed for home use and charge 80% in about 15
minutes??
Zero to 80 Percent in 15 minutes New Benchmark for EV Fast-charging

WASHINGTON, D.C., Jan. 26, 2010
The announcement came at a 15-minute news conference at the Washington Auto Show.
Fifteen-minutes is the time it will take to charge a THINK City from completely depleted to 80
percent charged using an advanced fast-charge system, establishing a new benchmark for the
rapidly developing electric vehicle industry.

“THINK and AeroVironment are setting a new standard for extremely quick re-charging – zero to 80
percent in just 15 minutes,” said THINK CEO Richard Canny. “This is a major leap forward for
electric vehicles. The development and deployment of very-fast-charge stations will help speed the
electrification of automobiles in the United States and globally.”

...The AV level III fast-charge system employs a protocol developed by Tokyo Electric Power
Company (TEPCO). THINK and EnerDel have for several months been using TEPCO fast charging
daily to quickly recharge development vehicles. This work has confirmed the suitability of the fast-
charge technology and readiness for commercialization.


Read more.
 
A level 3 charge in 15 minutes for a vehicle with a 100+ mile range is a significant step forward, albeit believable. But let me repeat my quote, highlighting what I found unbelievable:
The car, which has a top speed of 60 mph, can be charged from either a standard U.S. 110-volt household outlet, or a fast-charging 220-volt station that can be installed for home use. The small two-door car, clearly intended for city driving and parking, has a battery system with a range of about 112 miles per charge.

Via the fast-charging 220-volt station, a Think City car can charge from zero to 80 percent capacity in about 15 minutes. However, using a standard household outlet can take up to eight hours.
L3 charging for home use :!: :?:
For starters, we're talking something in the neighborhood of 350 Amps, never mind how much that charger is likely to cost.
 
planet4ever,

I can't defend or explain what THINK says they have up their sleeve/under development
in the way of their fast charger. Their claim is surprising given what other EV makers are
talking about. Whether or not it is practical for typical home use is beyond me.

But, THINK has been quietly, at least for us in the US, building EVs for 20 years.
It seems that their batteries are part of the fast charger package:

“EnerDel has developed an extremely energy-dense lithium ion battery for the THINK
City,” said EnerDel President Rick Stanley. “This battery has been designed from the
earliest stages of cell development to accommodate the surge of current required for a
new standard of rapid charging.”


It would appear that the fast charger includes some kind of electric storage itself,
perhaps super capacitors. :?:
 
The kWh capacity of the new Think City's on-board battery pack is described elsewhere as 25 kWh, with 95% usable (23.7 kWh), and a 4-hour charge time using 240-volts.

With a 30 (or 32) amp EVSE and charger, 7.2 kW x 4 hours is about right.

For a 15-minute charge (to 80%), about 7 x 16 x 0.8 => about 100 kW charging, or about 400 amps at 240v.

A good battery should be able to handle 4C charging (1/4 hour = 15 minutes), but the TYPICAL home electrical service cannot supply the 400 amps, so something like 20 (to 30) kWh of local "battery" storage would be necessary in the external Quick-Charger. Charge it up over 4 or 8 hours, then "dump" the energy into the Think in 15 minutes.

Doable, just a matter of cost. :D
 
garygid,

Thanks for that analysis... The 15 min, 80% charger is possible, but probably
costly. Apparently it needs a bank of batteries/super-caps to go with the
charging protocol. Cost maybe, ~$10K USD?

I think I've figured out where THINK is going with this.

From looking at postings in their Press Room, I see that they are involved in
various public car sharing schemes all over Europe:
Norway - Oslo, Gothenburg, Copenhagen
France - Basque Country
Germany, Austria, Switzerland

In this usage, you'd want to be able to have the car ready to return to service
very quickly after it is returned...

Enter the quick charger. Don't know what kind of turn-around time it has.
I suspect it has greater than typical domestic-use electrical supply from the grid.

Maybe this is what one looks like, though for long-term parking quick
charging isn't necesssary. (There are something like 2850 THINKs in Norway.):

NEW CHARGING STATIONS WITH A DEDICATED “THINK-PLUG” AT OSLO AIRPORT
GARDERMOEN IN NORWAY
April 23, 2010, 10:19 am

charging-station1.jpg


A new parking facility for electric cars at the long term parking at Oslo Airport
Gardermoen in Norway has just been opened. The charging stations have state of
the art technology that meets all new EU-regulations, and with a dedicated
THINK-plug you don’t not have to bring your own charging cable. You pay for the
parking, but the electricity is for free!
 
We have to be careful not to accurately analyze bad data - it appears that the CNET reporter dropped the ball on this one. :shock: :lol:

The 15 minute charge is with a TEPCO/CHAdeMO Level III DC charger, not a home-installed 240V Level 2.


Rokeby said:
Rokeby said:
Via the fast-charging 220-volt station, a Think City car can charge
from zero to 80 percent capacity in about 15 minutes. However, using
a standard household outlet can take up to eight hours.
planet4ever said:
Either somebody has mixed things up very badly here, or this is a revolutionary announcement.
A fast-charging 220-volt station that can be installed for home use and charge 80% in about 15 minutes??
Zero to 80 Percent in 15 minutes New Benchmark for EV Fast-charging

WASHINGTON, D.C., Jan. 26, 2010
The announcement came at a 15-minute news conference at the Washington Auto Show.
Fifteen-minutes is the time it will take to charge a THINK City from completely depleted to 80
percent charged using an advanced fast-charge system, establishing a new benchmark for the
rapidly developing electric vehicle industry.

“THINK and AeroVironment are setting a new standard for extremely quick re-charging – zero to 80
percent in just 15 minutes,” said THINK CEO Richard Canny. “This is a major leap forward for
electric vehicles. The development and deployment of very-fast-charge stations will help speed the
electrification of automobiles in the United States and globally.”

...The AV level III fast-charge system employs a protocol developed by Tokyo Electric Power
Company (TEPCO).
THINK and EnerDel have for several months been using TEPCO fast charging
daily to quickly recharge development vehicles. This work has confirmed the suitability of the fast-
charge technology and readiness for commercialization.


Read more.
 
Is there someone on here that knows more about the battery packs? I am very curious about the reportedly good extreme cold weather performance of the Zebra pack.

Living in Minnesota I fret about such things.
 
LeafinThePark said:
Is there someone on here that knows more about the battery packs? I am very curious about the reportedly good extreme cold weather performance of the Zebra pack.

Living in Minnesota I fret about such things.
That I understand, Leafin - I'm originally from the Keewenaw and have family in Duluth/Superior. I really miss my cross-country skis!

The Zebra battery would be just as happy in the Yukon as in Columbia - the battery operates at about 475°F. An owner doesn't want to leave the battery unplugged for long:
When not in use, ZEBRA batteries are typically left under charge so that they will remain molten and be ready for use when needed. If shut down and allowed to solidify, a reheating process must be initiated that may require up to two days to restore the battery pack to the desired temperature and impart a full charge. This reheating time varies depending on the state-of-charge of the batteries at the time of their shut down, battery-pack temperature, and power available for reheating. After a full shut down of the battery pack, three to four days will usually elapse before a fully-charged battery pack loses enough energy to cool and solidify.
WIKI

Some complain about the 'charge efficiency' of the Tesla pack due to it's cooling system with pumps and fans. This takes 'phantom load' to a new level! ;)
 
Thanks Andy!

I know there are a number of Think's zipping around Indiana now...anyone now anyone who knows anyone who knows how they are performing?
 
$41,695 before incentives....

http://www.plugincars.com/think-quietly-raised-price-city-electric-car-41695-106966.html

Disappointing....and makes me appreciate the Leaf's price tag that much more.
 
Reduced quite a bit further with more incentives ...

"ESN and Think are partners in development of the Indianapolis market. As part of that process, Project Plug-IN is offering customers a $9,000 incentive to buy a Think City. The funds, originating from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, are distributed by the Indiana Office of Energy Development and came to ESN in the form of a grant.

In addition to lowering the cost of the Think City, the grant is enabling consumers to buy Indiana-made cars powered by Indiana-made Ener1 batteries, Pulliam said.

The $9,000 Project Plug-IN rebate coupled with the $7,500 federal tax incentive slashes a major chunk of the cost from the car.

Think City vehicles were retailing for $41,000, a price that many in the industry wondered if consumers would pay. Since then, the cost of purchasing the car has fallen to $36,495, Prebo said. After the rebate and tax incentive, the price is $19,995 -- comparable to many gasoline-fueled automobiles."

Full story http://www.etruth.com/Know/News/Story.aspx?ID=539080
 
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