Understanding the EV haters

[Deleted member 1622]

I just finished wrestling with an EV hater posting on the recent Time article that called the Leaf a "flop"
http://business.time.com/2012/09/07/is-it-time-to-declare-the-nissan-leaf-a-flop/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It left me wondering: Why are there so many vocal EV haters (and they clearly exist on this forum, too)? They are so emotional about their attacks that I'm unconvinced that they're all plants from Nissan competitors or oil companies. They are clearly people with an anti-EV agenda, and they take it personally. I just don't understand the basis of their hatred for a new technology. There weren't people arguing we shouldn't build more iPhones because the 2G version had "limited range" on data. There weren't people saying we should stop building space vehicles to the moon because the first ten they built blew up in tests. Or were there, I didn't live through the '60s?
So what gives?

Josh

 

[Nubo]

I think people have a lot of different reasons. For some it's a political ideology and they become concerned that the government is somehow trying to "make them" change or "take their cars away", and there's a deep-seated resentment going all the way back to the first rudimentary pollution controls on cars beginning in the 1960's. It's easy to see the cost of a catalytic converter. Not so easy to realize the benefits, unless you know somebody who struggles to breathe with lung disease. Or perhaps loved someone who no longer struggles to breathe.

For others I think it's a more generalized antipathy. Personal automobiles exemplify freedom of movement, which we strongly associate with freedom in general and this is part of our Car Culture. Since gasoline has been central to that equation for around a century, the math sort of ended up concluding "gasoline = freedom = patriotism". And even though the acquisition of foreign petroleum required to sustain this, is not necessarily in the best interests of "The Good Ol' USA", we still have this idea of cheap gasoline being the cornerstone of American Freedom.

 

[MrIanB]

Barsad, it is called ignorance. Don't waste your breath as there is no changing them. Your time and breath are far more valuable to be wasting it on their argument.

Ian B, proud owner of 2011 SL Red and paid no gas in 8 months and loving it.

 

[JustinC]

There weren't people arguing we shouldn't build more iPhones because the 2G version had "limited range" on data.

Actually, there were quite a few iPhone haters early on. There are probably even more today, but they are less angry I think because there are more good alternatives (Android) than there used to be. A few years ago, you could find many commenters on Engadget freaking out about the limitations of the iPhone feature set. Finally, with the introduction of LTE on iPhone 5, there isn't as much to complain about. Maybe EVs will be like that - 5 years from now there could be a low-cost EV with great range, though I doubt it will gain the momentum that the iPhone did. More likely EVs will be a niche market for a long while still, until the cost-benefit is too obvious to ignore (eg. when gas prices double and triple).

I agree with Nubo - EVs violate the American car culture principles - foolish as they may be.

 

[Nubo]

Actually, there were quite a few iPhone haters early on.....

And I well remember the flood of negative criticism heaped upon the original iPod. Mostly by the fairly small group of people who had invested the time and effort in becoming adept enough to get some semblance of utility out of the .mp3 players and associated software of the day. They would pick on certain specs, or features that other devices "already had" or exceeded, cost per MB, etc... What these people did not seem to appreciate was that the iPod changed the entire equation of how people interacted with their music. It wasn't about a single spec, it was about the entire experience. It didn't become the dominant paradigm because of some mass-hallucination as some people would like to characterize it.

In much the same way, EV ownership doesn't simply orbit around the range, or charge times. It's about the whole experience and the pleasures of not dealing with gasoline and the associated hardware. Things that you don't really think about when you're accustomed to the existing way of doing things. Things that I didn't even fully realize until I started using the car.

The cost/range isn't quite at the tipping point yet, but I think we're closer than a lot of people would say. When the conversion happens in earnest, it will be a really big deal.

 

[Deleted member 1622]

I think Nubo is on to something with the equation gas=freedom=patriotism. It's too bad that this has become ideological, like pretty much every other public policy issue in the U.S. I think many conservatives are turned off by the tax credits and government incentives for renewables and EVs because they think meddling with the free market is bad in any context, If only they would open themselves to seeing the other side of EVs that DOES comply with conservative ideology -- creating American jobs, making ourselves competitive with Asia on a key technology, and weaning ourselves off dependence on foreign oil (no, there's NOT enough in Alaska or offshore to satisfy our thirst).

JG

 

[PaulScott]

Barsad, it is called ignorance. Don't waste your breath as there is no changing them. Your time and breath are far more valuable to be wasting it on their argument.

Ian B, proud owner of 2011 SL Red and paid no gas in 8 months and loving it.

I'll disagree a bit here. I spend a lot of time on blogs and media where EVs are discussed. I counter the misinformation when necessary and go after the EV haters with gusto (and FACTS!). For me, it's sport. There are people who read the comments, so having both sides presented will sway them one way or the other. Most of the time, I merely point out the truth and back it up with links. But sometimes, if I'm in the mood, I'll let them have it. I'm not so sure that latter technique is effective, but I guess that depends on who is reading it.

It's also a great way to hone my message. Practice makes perfect!

 

[Nubo]

... I think many conservatives are turned off by the tax credits and government incentives for renewables and EVs because they think meddling with the free market is bad in any context...

All the more ironic given that the entire complex of subsidies upon which our car culture is based.

- interstate highway system, cost of its construction, use of eminent domain to seize properties.
- subsidies to oil companies
- $Trillions spent on oil wars
- financial and health costs of ecological disasters and ongoing pollution, destruction of fisheries, etc, etc...

It boggles the mind. But we don't see it because it's just the way things are.

 

[PaulScott]

... I think many conservatives are turned off by the tax credits and government incentives for renewables and EVs because they think meddling with the free market is bad in any context...

All the more ironic given that the entire complex of subsidies upon which our car culture is based.

- interstate highway system, cost of its construction, use of eminent domain to seize properties.
- subsidies to oil companies
- $Trillions spent on oil wars
- financial and health costs of ecological disasters and ongoing pollution, destruction of fisheries, etc, etc...

It boggles the mind. But we don't see it because it's just the way things are.

This is exactly the argument I make. I think it's important to keep making it as often and as loudly as we can. It's the crux of the problem. When I bring up these external costs of oil, they either deny the truth of it, or they change the subject.

 

[adric22]

I believe 90% of the EV haters can be summed up as simply anti-Obama. And in their minds, anything Obama likes is bad. if Obama proclaims the cheeseburger as being the best food ever, then these guys would be ranting about how bad and stupid cheeseburgers are. If Romney is elected and by some weird chance 2 years later he talks about how great EVs are, then suddenly 90% of the EV haters will disappear.

I would imagine the rest of the EV haters (and probably some overlap with the Obama haters) probably feel like the entire EV movement exists only as a solution to environmental problems and that nobody could possibly have any other motivation to buy one. And since they do not believe global warming exists, and since they believe that all electricity is derived from coal power, which is supposedly dirtier than gas power.... that EVs are a dumb idea.

So that probably just about sums up most of the haters. Yes, a lot of it is just total ignorance. Nothing we can really do about it other than to correct their facts.

On the bright side - I have a lot of hope for Tesla. They have a product that is a appealing to a lot of people and it is very clear that you don't have to be an environmentalist in order to want one. So I'm sort of counting on Tesla to really change people's minds about EVs.

 

[Herm]

As a conservative it is very frustrating when I run into people like that.. the quick way to shut them off is to mention "I dont want to send more money to the Arabs".. that usually works otherwise start insulting them as Arab lovers etc. Repeat as needed loudly until it gets thru, emotion helps on that... I believe Nubo has something there..

BTW, there are really very few oil subsidies besides the standard business deductions.. and whenever the oil wars term comes up in your mind just substitute "wars so food can get delivered to my supermarket". I'm agnostic on the present AGW beliefs so I dont bring that mess up.

Another good point is that China is busy bringing their standard of living up and they want to drive cars.

 

[cwerdna]

... I think many conservatives are turned off by the tax credits and government incentives for renewables and EVs because they think meddling with the free market is bad in any context...

All the more ironic given that the entire complex of subsidies upon which our car culture is based.

- interstate highway system, cost of its construction, use of eminent domain to seize properties.
- subsidies to oil companies
- $Trillions spent on oil wars
- financial and health costs of ecological disasters and ongoing pollution, destruction of fisheries, etc, etc...

It boggles the mind. But we don't see it because it's just the way things are.

This is exactly the argument I make. I think it's important to keep making it as often and as loudly as we can. It's the crux of the problem. When I bring up these external costs of oil, they either deny the truth of it, or they change the subject.

The arguments against EVs are very similar to the anti-hybrid drivel/misinformation that us Prius drivers have been hearing for ages (false claims of environmental costs (e.g. CNW garbage that still refuses to die about Hummer being greener than a Prius), "not worth it", danger to emergency responders, that hybrids deliver minimal mileage improvements, etc.). There are still people who think that non-plugin hybrids need to be plugged in.

Unfortunately, because an EV has range limits, limited infrastructure and slow charging speeds vs. filling up a gas tank, now you've got extra things against you. I was at a BBQ w/some friends and acquaintances recently and the subject of the Leaf and pure EVs came up. One of them stated (don't remember which) something along the lines of "it'd be scary to have an EV... because of the limited range." The word scary was used.

Keep in mind, this is amongst males in their late 30s in the tech industry w/most of us living/working in/around Silicon Valley. One of them I went to high school with in San Jose but he lives in Seattle now and was back in the Bay Area visiting. Can you imagine what the thoughts in other parts of the US amongst others w/different demographics?

Here's some examples of myths and refutations we hear re: hybrids:
http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Common_Prius_Myths" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Environmental" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Besides China having a growing middle class, w/more able to afford cars, there's the other country in the same situation, also w/over a billion people, India.

I've tried arguing about our addiction to oil before at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7410253#post7410253" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and some other posts afterward. You get an idea of some people's reaction.

I've posted about the insane # of monstrosity class SUV sales before at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6735" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and what I observe at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=205267#p205267" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Then look at the hybrid and plug-in take rate at http://www.hybridcars.com/news/august-2012-dashboard-51090.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

In comparison GM alone last month in the US sold >14K monstrosity class (aka full-sized) SUVs (http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2012/GM_US_Deliveries_August_2012.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

Just today, as usual, I saw an insane # of monstrosity class (some of them extended length beasts like Escalade ESVs, Suburbans, Yukon XL, etc.) being driven solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers. Gas at $4/gal doesn't seem to faze them. Today, I didn't see any Hummer H2s, but on many days, I see at least 1-2. :roll:

I posted at http://priuschat.com/threads/drivers-behave-as-if-gas-is-cheap.113898/page-6#post-1627076" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; about one of the horrible gas wasting habits I've observed at http://priuschat.com/threads/drivers-behave-as-if-gas-is-cheap.113898/page-6#post-1627076" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, besides many others I've seen.

I think the bottom line is that the issues that the 3 posters I quoted brought up, most Americans don't care about or don't care about enough to do anything real about. This is assuming they even realize the connection and are willing to to accept there is one. It's only when there's some easily visible crisis (e.g. shortages, rationing, long lines, extremely high gas prices) or "crisis" ($4/gal gas, in the past, isn't having much effect in CA now), will they do something.

 

[EVDRIVER]

EVs are for socialists that want free energy, handouts, and government subsidies. EV drivers are lazy, and certainly not Americans. These colors don't run! Give me a good big block and a long road. Once the dream team is elected this country will have cars with something real under the hood, not blender motors.

 

[Herm]

Well, a lot of posters here want free charging, tax credits, free evses, free parking and so on... and California is a hotbed of liberalism so that increases the suspicion.

 

[planet4ever]

Very well put, Herm! I think the tax credits need to stay in place for a few years so the industry can get off the ground, but for the rest of it -- we should be paying our own way, and that includes getting taxed somehow to maintain the highway system.

[Sorry you haven't seen the light yet on global warming, which I consider far and away the most important issue of the 21st century, but I'm glad I can agree with you on something!]

Ray

 

[Nekota]

I think people do what they are told to do. So Time says that EV's don't make sense so without a rebuttal, peeps are too lazy to figure stuff out for themselves - that is if a rebuttal were permitted. Just imagine how different (peaceful hopefully) our day to day living would be if we didn't have political news to discuss.

 

[cwerdna]

I think people do what they are told to do. So Time says that EV's don't make sense so without a rebuttal, peeps are too lazy to figure stuff out for themselves - that is if a rebuttal were permitted.

Yep, on the bolded part. The same thing happened when the CNW/Art Spinella anti-hybrid junk science came out. Unfortunately, it still refuses to die and people still continue to cite it (or at least the bogus conclusions), to this day.

If anyone did the most basic calculations about their supposed vehicle lifetime mileage and cost per mile, they'd find the numbers make no sense. I went further once they released their spreadsheet (which had locked formulas) and looked into their totally nonsensical figures. I'd written a number of posts about what I found.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

dont read more into the hate than it really is. you can substitute "EV" for nearly anything. insert "Chevy" i know people who hate them and Chrysler because they took bail outs and love Ford because they did not. their reasoning is just as stupid as anyone elses since neither sent back their tax rebate check they received

We Humans are an opinionated bunch. that comes from higher intelligence. we see something a few times, consider it to be gospel the "been there" crowd.

there are others (a LOT OF THEM) that read the same thing in a few different sources and become believers

Jim Jones convinced 1000 people to commit mass suicide that is a really good indicator of how easily we Humans can be swayed, conned or brain-washed into believing just about anything

so you think these people are not plants of Big Oil or whatever? might want to re-evaluate that statement. they been brain-washing us for years and they have the money to do a very effective job of it

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

People hate and fear what they don't understand, it happens when any new technology comes out you have the doubters. The truth is they are often right, but obviously not always.

 

[RegGuheert]

I think part of the equation is that people tend to be suspicious of things they do not understand or have not experienced personally.

To me that is part of owning an EV or renewable energy system: It's not just about personally trying to help reduce dependence on foreign oil or save the environment, but also it is about helping other people learn about these things and experience them so that they don't seem so foreign anymore. People's views on things like technological advances don't typically change overnight, but rather they change slowly as they experience the benefits of the new technology first hand. For instance, many people who have driven our LEAF have NEVER driven any electric vehicle before. Or worse, the only other electric vehicle they have driven was literally a golf cart! Those people have forever now had "electric vehicle=golf cart" erased from their beliefs. At the same time, most of them have reinforced the belief that electric vehicles do not have enough range for their commute. It's a process...

Another aspect of EVs and renewable energy that most people struggle with is the idea of paying a lot for something today and recovering that extra expenditure ove time. That aspect ALWAYS comes up when discussing PV with others. Generally I find that people are focused only on monthly costs (something I believe the car industry has trained them to do) or they simply have lots of debt and little savings so they don't have the freedom to make these types of choices. And perhaps that makes some people want to lash out and proclaim that the government is simply subsidizing the rich.

I do see a steady shift in attitudes over time, however.