True cost of maintenance and repair/fix for longer term?

[carolle]

I'm still new to my LEAF, which I leased this April. We are using only for city driving (20 miles per day).

I definitely believe that the cost of maintenance (including fix and repair) of LEAF should be cheaper than gasoline cars in the same segment (e.g., Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Hyundai Elantra etc; non-hybrid mid-size hatch back or sedans).

But, I'm not very clear about the cost for maintaining and fixing LEAF, assuming that I'm owning for 6-7 years, or even 10 years.

Let us limit to the drive train parts. Parts like brake, tire and interiors are the same with the gasoline cars.

Obviously, LEAF has many advantages, to name a few: (1) no engine oil, (2) no transmission oil, (3) no timing belt and water pump, (4) no gasket leak, (5) no engine filter, (6) no transmission failure, etc.

What about LEAF? What parts could be broken and need regular maintenance? And, what would be the costs for maintaining the drive train?

Especially, I'm wondering the life span and durability of AC motors and the battery.

Any information and experience would be appreciated!

 

[mwalsh]

Well, there is that battery pack. We have NO CLUE what it will cost to change that out! :lol:

 

[Bicster]

Brake pads on the LEAF will last substantially longer than most cars due to regenerative braking.

There's a coolant pump for the charging system, but it's electronic.

The 12V battery will need replacing every 2-4 years depending on your climate and driving conditions.

The motor and reduction gear should last forever.

The traction battery is the big issue. They're not as durable as Nissan advertised, and you can't buy a new one. That's a sore topic around here, but there's a lot of other threads on it that you will find easily. No need to go over it all again here!

The charging system or inverter may require expensive service at some point; It's too early to tell, and these were just redesigned for 2013.

 

[TomT]

It's a standard electric pump...

There's a coolant pump for the charging system, but it's electronic.

 

[DaveEV]

Well, there is that battery pack. We have NO CLUE what it will cost to change that out! :lol:

Well, we might not know what a new pack costs, but a used one currently costs about $6,000-7,000. For a car that's out of warranty, getting a newer pack (hopefully from a cooler climate) is probably the most cost effective method - not to mention the easiest on the environment.

 

[donald]

I'd agree with Nissan that it would be unusual to need to replace a whole battery pack. A defective module should be changed out for a few $100. Other older modules may have lost a little capacity but I doubt would render the pack unusable.

The future is also, probably, 'pre-used' modules that are still showing good performance from older cars as they are scrapped off or, indeed, if a whole battery pack is replaced and the %age of good modules are sent for re-use.

The rest of the vehicle will be like any other - there may be some particular weak-points of the design, yet to show up and hopefully not expensive ones, and the rest you hope goes on without fuss and expense.

 

[ksnogas2112]

Don't forget the $1000 headlights...don't crack the cover.

 

[DaveEV]

Don't forget the $1000 headlights...don't crack the cover.

eBay appears to have LED headlamp units for as little as $300. Halogen units are as low as $175.

 

[jelloslug]

Don't forget the $1000 headlights...don't crack the cover.

Parts.com has new OEM LED headights for $470

 

[LEAFfan]

I'd agree with Nissan that it would be unusual to need to replace a whole battery pack. A defective module should be changed out for a few $100. Other older modules may have lost a little capacity but I doubt would render the pack unusable.

Actually, very few individual modules have been replaced as far as we know. The pack usually degrades as a unit, at least that's what has happened so far. According to Nissan, they've replaced or have scheduled to replace 22 battery packs.

 

[donald]

According to Nissan, they've replaced or have scheduled to replace 22 battery packs.

Maybe. But in these early days, they probably want to recover the whole battery pack, for research purposes, to see how the rest of the pack has functioned and behaved, and how to optimise the pack with modules that have failed 'in the real world'.

The best test environment Nissan will ever put the batteries through is when they are with real users.

 

[TimLee]

Obviously, LEAF has many advantages, to name a few: ... (2) no transmission oil, (3) .. (6) no transmission failure, etc.

The LEAF does have a single ratio transmission. :shock:
Although my guess is that it will be very low maintenance, it will not be zero maintenance.

 

[TimLee]

The best test environment Nissan will ever put the batteries through is when they are with real users.

Agreed.
And Nissan plans for the early adopters the ones who purchased LEAFs initially, or stupidly bought LEAFs once they came off of lease, to be the ones who pay!!!! :shock: :shock:

 

[surfingslovak]

According to Nissan, they've replaced or have scheduled to replace 22 battery packs.

Maybe. But in these early days, they probably want to recover the whole battery pack, for research purposes, to see how the rest of the pack has functioned and behaved, and how to optimise the pack with modules that have failed 'in the real world'.

Donald, I must disagree with the notion that these packs were replaced for research purposes only. The longevity of the pack as a whole is a concern in warmer climates, hence the development of the new "hot battery". This was discussed at great length here on MNL last year, and when the first reports surfaced from Phoenix, the common assumption was indeed that perhaps a module went bad. I assumed that too, but had to revise this opinion couple of months later. This might not affect owners in the UK or Canada as much as those in LA or Tennessee. I, for one, would love for Nissan to complete development of the more robust battery chemistry, and start using it across the entire fleet. I think everyone would benefit, not just the owners in hot climates.

 

[planet4ever]

Obviously, LEAF has many advantages, to name a few: ... (2) no transmission oil, (3) .. (6) no transmission failure, etc.

The LEAF does have a single ratio transmission. :shock:
Although my guess is that it will be very low maintenance, it will not be zero maintenance.

True, and the service guide calls for inspecting the reduction gear oil annually (or every 12K miles). The guide goes out to 8 years or 120K miles, and doesn't call for routine replacement of the oil any time during that period. With no clutches and no gears being shifted, I expect any maintenance would be, on average, a microscopic fraction of the cost of battery maintenance.

Ray

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

I went with Enphase on my solar, but when I was pricing systems, I frequently heard that string inverters, warrantied for 10 years, might last 12-15 years, then would be about $4-5k to replace.

So, would it be about the same for a Leaf's inverter?

If all the major electronics, and the batteries, need to be replaced after ten years or so, you might as well just get a new car.

 

[Berlino]

Any idea how Consumer Reports judges the reliability of used vehicles? Is their sample size adequate?

For MY11, they give the LEAF the highest rating for reliability history in all categories.

However, for MY12 "electrical system" gets the white circle (3 on a scale of 1 to 5) as does "overall." All other categories retain their top rating.

For EV's, it is clear that they need to revise the categories. "Electric System" is too vague and "Exhaust" seems out of place.

I guess the LEAF lost points due to battery capacity loss, but why would MY12 score worse than MY11?

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Good question. I thought it was the '13s with all the bad PDMs that were the problem.

 

[dhanson865]

Any idea how Consumer Reports judges the reliability of used vehicles? Is their sample size adequate?

I guess the LEAF lost points due to battery capacity loss, but why would MY12 score worse than MY11?

CR just mails out a paper survey to all their subscribers and then tallys the returned surveys. If a few mad MY12 owners return bad surveys and no MY11 owners do the same you get skewed data.

You might also look at Truedelta for reliability information. They also show more repair trips for MY12 vs MY11, but the difference is minor enough to be a non issue.

http://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF/reliability-968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

compare vs the Toyota Prius to get an idea how another good car performs

http://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF/reliability-968/vs-Prius-272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

take a look at the Leaf vs the Mini Cooper to see how a bad car performs

http://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF/reliability-968/vs-Cooper-211" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[RegGuheert]

I went with Enphase on my solar, but when I was pricing systems, I frequently heard that string inverters, warrantied for 10 years, might last 12-15 years, then would be about $4-5k to replace.

So, would it be about the same for a Leaf's inverter?

If all the major electronics, and the batteries, need to be replaced after ten years or so, you might as well just get a new car.

According to Ingineer, there are no electrolytic capacitors in the power inverter that drives the LEAF's wheels, so I'm hoping it will last longer than a string inverter.

But he also has indicated that both the charger and the DC-DC converter contain electrolytics, so they may be more similar in lifetime to the string inverters. They also operate at a similar power level. The difference is that the electronics in the LEAF are liquid-cooled rather than air-cooled.

The good news is that both the inverter and the DC-DC converter have had virtually zero field failures to date, which indicates the design is robust and keeps the components within their safe operating area. The charger has not fared as well, either in the 2011/2012s or the 2013s. Clearly some components in the charger are being taken outside their SOA under certain circumstances.

But we won't know for sure about lifetime of any of these components until they start failing. Stay tuned, as we are certain to hear about any failures here first!