DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
GlennD said:Road and Track called it the ugliest car ever and I agree.
Agreed. Reminds me of some of the Chrysler products from the 90's...
GlennD said:Road and Track called it the ugliest car ever and I agree.
OT. Oddly enough, the first BEV conversion I ever saw was a red Karmann Ghia, back in the early '90s when I was selling off-grid systems. One of my customers had it and had done the conversion, so I asked him all about it. He used it for his daily commutes in the Bay Area, I think 25 miles but I don't remember if that was one-way or round trip. IIRR it was a hardtop so probably this isn't the same car, but Karmann Ghias were popular BEV conversions owing to the space front and rear for batteries; ISTR Corvairs (and 914s) were popular for the same reason. I don't remember for sure, but think he may have worked at Lawrence Livermore or Sandia (one of whose boundary streets is Tesla Rd.).RegGuheert said:I am offering this link to move the discussion very slightly less OT than it already is:Levenkay said:But the topic was aesthetics, not function. I always felt ghias look like VW beetles that got left out in the sun to melt.GlennD said:[ liked my 59 karman ghia, Compared to a regular VW it was tons better. It was 6V and my 2 way radio turned the headlights orange when I keyed up.
1971 Karmann Ghia electric car conversion
Here's a kit for someone who wants to do it yourself: Karmann Ghia EV Conversion Kit, AC Motor, Regen Braking, 1955-1974
(Of course you could purchase a used LEAF for less money than that kit.)
Sorry, GRA, I couldn't find an H2 FCV conversion kit for a Karmann Ghia.
JasonA said:Geez, look what’s happening in diamond bar live right now!! A hydrogen fuel transport truck EXPLODED and they had to evacuate the whole surrounding area.
Sounds pretty safe to me
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-diamond-bar-hydrogen-leak-20180211-story.html
http://abc7.com/hydrogen-tank-explosion-on-truck-prompts-evacuations-in-diamond-bar/3068078/
https://patch.com/california/diamondbar-walnut/traffic-alert-possible-explosion-la-freeway
“I was sitting on my patio about 1/2 mile away,” he wrote. “I heard two loud booms and then a hissing sound for about 30 seconds. Scary.”
GRA said:Right, H2 is uniquely dangerous as a transportation fuel when transported in bulk: https://www.google.com/search?q=tan...zSjqTZAhVS3GMKHWxdA6sQsAQIOA&biw=1280&bih=686
https://www.google.com/search?q=rai...j6TZAhUR0WMKHfIBB0kQ_AUIDSgE&biw=1280&bih=686
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/experts-shipping-lithium-ion-batteries-bulk-cargo-planes-unsafe-n516121
Oh, wait.
Oil and gas will explode too - it doesn't have to be under pressure, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disasterOils4AsphaultOnly said:GRA said:Right, H2 is uniquely dangerous as a transportation fuel when transported in bulk: https://www.google.com/search?q=tan...zSjqTZAhVS3GMKHWxdA6sQsAQIOA&biw=1280&bih=686
https://www.google.com/search?q=rai...j6TZAhUR0WMKHfIBB0kQ_AUIDSgE&biw=1280&bih=686
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/experts-shipping-lithium-ion-batteries-bulk-cargo-planes-unsafe-n516121
Oh, wait.
All those tankers simply caught on fire. They're only dangerous to the immediate vicinity. That's why firefighters can deal with them.
Things under high-compression though are EXPLOSIVE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTQrVXEPQrM
Besides, we're trying to move to safer fuels, not "just as bad".
http://www.sightline.org/2015/05/06/oil-train-explosions-a-timeline-in-pictures/OIL TRAIN EXPLOSIONS: A TIMELINE IN PICTURES
Ten explosions in two years, and no end in sight.
GRA said:Oil and gas will explode too - it doesn't have to be under pressure, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disasterOils4AsphaultOnly said:All those tankers simply caught on fire. They're only dangerous to the immediate vicinity. That's why firefighters can deal with them.
Things under high-compression though are EXPLOSIVE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTQrVXEPQrM
Besides, we're trying to move to safer fuels, not "just as bad".
Here's a recent list:http://www.sightline.org/2015/05/06/oil-train-explosions-a-timeline-in-pictures/OIL TRAIN EXPLOSIONS: A TIMELINE IN PICTURES
Ten explosions in two years, and no end in sight.
We're trying to move to whatever fuel is sustainable and has the least impact on the environment while being acceptable to the general public, not which is safest. My feet and bicycle powered by the food I eat are safer than any battery as a source of energy, but that doesn't mean that the public will accept them over another, more dangerous but much more capable energy source which requires no physical effort on their part. More than a century ago a BEV enthusiast was making the same argument about the safety advantages of batteries over fossil-fueled ICEs, claiming that most people wouldn't accept sitting over a string of continuous explosions. As we know he was wrong; most people were perfectly willing to do just that, as it allowed their cars to be much more useful to them.
If maximum safety were the main priority of our choice of transportation, we simply wouldn't be driving cars at all, And we certainly wouldn't let humans, especially teens, drive them: https://vimeo.com/aaapublicaffairs/review/122313614/989d09b15b After all, the equivalent of four jetliners full of passengers die every week in car crashes in the U.S. alone, with the National Safety Council estimate for last year exceeding 40,000 (NHTSA hasn't released the official figures yet); annual injuries run about 2.5 million, and those are just the ones that involve emergency room trauma care. In the U.S. you have a 1 in 112 chance of the cause of your death being a traffic crash.
Uh huh, and how often does this happen? Humans notice and worry about risks that are rare but spectacular, like these or aircraft crashes, but it's the risks that are massive but diffuse that cause the vast majority of the casualties. The following is a quote from "Door to Door: The Maddening, Mysterious World of Transportation," by Edward Humes, 2016:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:GRA said:If maximum safety were the main priority of our choice of transportation, we simply wouldn't be driving cars at all, And we certainly wouldn't let humans, especially teens, drive them: https://vimeo.com/aaapublicaffairs/review/122313614/989d09b15b After all, the equivalent of four jetliners full of passengers die every week in car crashes in the U.S. alone, with the National Safety Council estimate for last year exceeding 40,000 (NHTSA hasn't released the official figures yet); annual injuries run about 2.5 million, and those are just the ones that involve emergency room trauma care. In the U.S. you have a 1 in 112 chance of the cause of your death being a traffic crash.
"Oil and gas will explode too" - you're being deliberately obtuse about the difference in magnitude between a gasoline vapor explosion (liquid gasoline only burns), and contents under 3500psi. review my video link. Note that the people that were blown away were almost 3 city blocks AWAY from the burning CNG tanker. Yet we use CNG to cook our food and bottle it with our camping gear. The fuel isn't the problem, it's the high pressure of the containment vessel.
If you compress steam up to 3,500 psi (I haven't found anyone who's done it to 2000psi, let alone 3,500!!), you'd get an equally destructive explosion.
If you're really concerned about preventable risk to humans, then you should concentrate on areas that are much more hazardous. For starters, until we get fully autonomous vehicles that, unlike humans, will never suffer an accident attributable to the Four Ds (Drunk, drugged, drowsy or distracted), we can require all cars to be outfitted with breathalyzers that will prevent drunks (and hopefully at least some druggies) from starting them. Second, we can ban infotainment systems in all cars (including radios), and ban all cell phone use (including hands-free) by drivers while massively increasing the fines and penalties for it, as they are a major cause of distracted drivers*1. Third, we can set a maximum speed limit of 20 or 25 mph on all streets and roads where pedestrians are allowed, as the likelihood of death increases rapidly above those speeds for any pedestrian/cyclist struck by a car*2, and the risk of injury to those inside it likewise. Fourth, we can install seat belt/weight monitoring that will prevent the car from moving without everyone in it being buckled up. Fifth, we can install dividers on all non-urban roads, which will prevent the head-on collisions due to crossing the centerline that are a major cause of serious injury and death. Sixth, we can install driver-monitoring cameras and other senors in all cars, linked to drowsiness/erratic driving software that will prevent any continuation of the trip.Oddly, the most immediately devastating consequence of the modern car -- the devastation it leaves in its wake -- seems to generate the least public outcry and attention. . . .
The typical car wreck is becoming all but invisible to everyone but those who are killed or maimed and those whose job it is to clean it up. Many are aware at some level that troubling numbers of people are injured and die in cars, but most remain unfazed by this knowledge.
The contrast couldn't be greater with public perception of airliner crashes, which always generate a high-visibility tsunami of fear, headlines,
and spare-no-expense investigations. As counter-intuitive as it may seem when comparing passenger-laden airliners with the crash of one car carrying one person, this disparity in attention cannot be justified by the numbers. Quite the contrary: in the fourteen years following the terrorist attacks of 9/11, there were eight crashes of on American soil of passenger planes operated by regional, national or international carriers. The death toll in those crashes totaled 442. That averages out to fewer than three fatalities a month.
The death toll on America's streets and highways during that same period since 9/11 was more than 400,000 men, women and children. The traffic death toll in 2915 exceeded 3,000 a month."
http://www.nsc.org/DistractedDrivingDocuments/Cognitive-Distraction-White-Paper.pdfUnderstanding the distracted brain
WHY DRIVING WHILE USING HANDS-FREE CELL PHONES IS RISKY BEHAVIOR
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4e12/7450856ddb9011a604e74d7cc2a5e7e681e4.pdfImpact Speed and a Pedestrian’s Risk of Severe Injury or Death
GRA said:Uh huh, and how often does this happen? Humans notice and worry about risks that are rare but spectacular, like these or aircraft crashes, but it's the risks that are massive but diffuse that cause the vast majority of the casualties. The following is a quote from "Door to Door: The Maddening, Mysterious World of Transportation," by Edward Humes, 2016:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:GRA said:If maximum safety were the main priority of our choice of transportation, we simply wouldn't be driving cars at all, And we certainly wouldn't let humans, especially teens, drive them: https://vimeo.com/aaapublicaffairs/review/122313614/989d09b15b After all, the equivalent of four jetliners full of passengers die every week in car crashes in the U.S. alone, with the National Safety Council estimate for last year exceeding 40,000 (NHTSA hasn't released the official figures yet); annual injuries run about 2.5 million, and those are just the ones that involve emergency room trauma care. In the U.S. you have a 1 in 112 chance of the cause of your death being a traffic crash.
"Oil and gas will explode too" - you're being deliberately obtuse about the difference in magnitude between a gasoline vapor explosion (liquid gasoline only burns), and contents under 3500psi. review my video link. Note that the people that were blown away were almost 3 city blocks AWAY from the burning CNG tanker. Yet we use CNG to cook our food and bottle it with our camping gear. The fuel isn't the problem, it's the high pressure of the containment vessel.
If you compress steam up to 3,500 psi (I haven't found anyone who's done it to 2000psi, let alone 3,500!!), you'd get an equally destructive explosion.
If you're really concerned about preventable risk to humans, then you should concentrate on areas that are much more hazardous. For starters, until we get fully autonomous vehicles that unlike humans will never suffer an accident attributable to the Four Ds (Drunk, drugged, drowsy or distracted), we can require all cars to be outfitted with breathalyzers that will prevent drunks from starting them. Second, we can ban infotainment systems in all cars (including radios), and massively increase the fines and penalties for cell phone use, as they are a major cause of distracted drivers. Third, we can set a maximum speed limit of 20 or 25 mph, as the likelihood of death increases rapidly above those speeds for any pedestrian struck by a car, and the risk of injury to those inside it likewise. Fourth, we can install seat belt/weight monitoring that will prevent the car from moving without everyone in it being buckled up. Fifth, we can install dividers on all non-urban roads, which will prevent the head-on collisions due to crossing the centerline that are a major cause of serious injury and death. Sixth, we can install driver-monitoring cameras and other senors in all cars, linked to drowsiness/erratic driving software that will prevent any continuation of the trip.Oddly, the most immediately devastating consequence of the modern car -- the devastation it leaves in its wake -- seems to generate the least public outcry and attention. . . .
The typical car wreck is becoming all but invisible to everyone but those who are killed or maimed and those whose job it is to clean it up. Many are aware at some level that troubling numbers of people are injured and die in cars, but most remain unfazed by this knowledge.
The contrast couldn't be greater with public perception of airliner crashes, which always generate a high-visibility tsunami of fear, headlines,
and spare-no-expense investigations. As counter-intuitive as it may seem when comparing passenger-laden airliners with the crash of one car carrying one person, this disparity in attention cannot be justified by the numbers. Quite the contrary: in the fourteen years following the terrorist attacks of 9/11, there were eight crashes of on American soil of passenger planes operated by regional, national or international carriers. The death toll in those crashes totaled 442. That averages out to fewer than three fatalities a month.
The death toll on America's streets and highways during that same period since 9/11 was more than 400,000 men, women and children. The traffic death toll in 2915 exceeded 3,000 a month."
Now, how likely is it that any of these unquestionably effective ways to massively reduce the risk of traffic injuries and deaths is likely to be acceptable to the public, which they're willing to pay for?
No, I'm talking about both risk and mitigation. Poorly trained, drunk/drunk/tired/distracted humans driving heavy vehicles at speed while violating traffic laws are the risk. The above suggestions are ways to mitigate much of that risk.Oils4AsphaultOnly said:You're conflating risk assessment with risk mitigation.GRA said:Uh huh, and how often does this happen? Humans notice and worry about risks that are rare but spectacular, like these or aircraft crashes, but it's the risks that are massive but diffuse that cause the vast majority of the casualties. The following is a quote from "Door to Door: The Maddening, Mysterious World of Transportation," by Edward Humes, 2016:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:"Oil and gas will explode too" - you're being deliberately obtuse about the difference in magnitude between a gasoline vapor explosion (liquid gasoline only burns), and contents under 3500psi. review my video link. Note that the people that were blown away were almost 3 city blocks AWAY from the burning CNG tanker. Yet we use CNG to cook our food and bottle it with our camping gear. The fuel isn't the problem, it's the high pressure of the containment vessel.
If you compress steam up to 3,500 psi (I haven't found anyone who's done it to 2000psi, let alone 3,500!!), you'd get an equally destructive explosion.
If you're really concerned about preventable risk to humans, then you should concentrate on areas that are much more hazardous. For starters, until we get fully autonomous vehicles that unlike humans will never suffer an accident attributable to the Four Ds (Drunk, drugged, drowsy or distracted), we can require all cars to be outfitted with breathalyzers that will prevent drunks from starting them. Second, we can ban infotainment systems in all cars (including radios), and massively increase the fines and penalties for cell phone use, as they are a major cause of distracted drivers. Third, we can set a maximum speed limit of 20 or 25 mph, as the likelihood of death increases rapidly above those speeds for any pedestrian struck by a car, and the risk of injury to those inside it likewise. Fourth, we can install seat belt/weight monitoring that will prevent the car from moving without everyone in it being buckled up. Fifth, we can install dividers on all non-urban roads, which will prevent the head-on collisions due to crossing the centerline that are a major cause of serious injury and death. Sixth, we can install driver-monitoring cameras and other senors in all cars, linked to drowsiness/erratic driving software that will prevent any continuation of the trip.Oddly, the most immediately devastating consequence of the modern car -- the devastation it leaves in its wake -- seems to generate the least public outcry and attention. . . .
The typical car wreck is becoming all but invisible to everyone but those who are killed or maimed and those whose job it is to clean it up. Many are aware at some level that troubling numbers of people are injured and die in cars, but most remain unfazed by this knowledge.
The contrast couldn't be greater with public perception of airliner crashes, which always generate a high-visibility tsunami of fear, headlines,
and spare-no-expense investigations. As counter-intuitive as it may seem when comparing passenger-laden airliners with the crash of one car carrying one person, this disparity in attention cannot be justified by the numbers. Quite the contrary: in the fourteen years following the terrorist attacks of 9/11, there were eight crashes of on American soil of passenger planes operated by regional, national or international carriers. The death toll in those crashes totaled 442. That averages out to fewer than three fatalities a month.
The death toll on America's streets and highways during that same period since 9/11 was more than 400,000 men, women and children. The traffic death toll in 2915 exceeded 3,000 a month."
Now, how likely is it that any of these unquestionably effective ways to massively reduce the risk of traffic injuries and deaths is likely to be acceptable to the public, which they're willing to pay for?
Sure, Genav is much less safe than commuter airlines, which are much less safe than major airlines, for the reasons you state. But airliners continue to crash, even with highly-trained pilots and extensive maintenance requirements, yet I don't see you recommending that we simply stop flying because of the risk.Oils4AsphaultOnly said:Airlines are relatively safe, because they undergo a very EXTENSIVE maintenance and pilot training program. If automobiles and drivers are screened just as thoroughly, I assure you that automotive accident and death rates would drop significantly. Conversely, if you permit Joe Schmoo to fly their piper cub or helium balloon chair in the same airspace as commercial airliners, you'll see accident rates go way up. There's a reason why there's such a thing as restricted airspace.
You can't just take "general" statistics and apply it to everything. Here's the counter stat to air safety - Amateur pilots had an accident rate that was 43 times higher than commercial pilots (on a per 100,000 flight-hours basis): https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Private-Planes.html
Completely safe, huh? So, how about 400 PSI? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosionOils4AsphaultOnly said:Let me repeat with CNG. At low pressures (under 300psi) it's in our backyard as cooking fuel or part of the Treasure Island pyro show - completely SAFE. At 3,500 psi, it's a potential bomb, and accidents involving CNG buses are treated as such.
I imagine the main reason is because there's as yet not enough data on CFP tanks to certify them for longer. My scuba tanks are certified to 3,500 PSI and 2,640 PSI (the latter is for tanks that are nominally 2,400 PSI, but a 10% overfill is allowed as long as they pass an extra expansion test), and both have to be pressure tested every five years and visually inspected every year. However, they're steel, and we've got over 100 years of experience with them in that kind of service, with gradually increasing pressures and test intervals as experience was gained and metallurgy and test methods improved. Here's some reasonably current info for Type 4 composite tanks:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:H2 is compressed up to 10,000psi. That number needs to be taken VERY seriously. Heck, even Toyota forbids the use of their tanks after a limited age, regardless of the condition of the tanks!
https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/hydrogentank_testing_ostw.pdfDOE Tank Safety Workshop
Hydrogen Tank Safety Testing
GRA said:No, I'm talking about both risk and mitigation.Oils4AsphaultOnly said:You're conflating risk assessment with risk mitigation.
Sure, Genav is much less safe than commuter airlines, which are much less safe than major airlines, for the reasons you state. But airliners continue to crash, even with highly-trained pilots and extensive maintenance requirements, yet I don't see you recommending that we simply stop flying because of the risk.Oils4AsphaultOnly said:Airlines are relatively safe, because they undergo a very EXTENSIVE maintenance and pilot training program. If automobiles and drivers are screened just as thoroughly, I assure you that automotive accident and death rates would drop significantly. Conversely, if you permit Joe Schmoo to fly their piper cub or helium balloon chair in the same airspace as commercial airliners, you'll see accident rates go way up. There's a reason why there's such a thing as restricted airspace.
You can't just take "general" statistics and apply it to everything. Here's the counter stat to air safety - Amateur pilots had an accident rate that was 43 times higher than commercial pilots (on a per 100,000 flight-hours basis): https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Private-Planes.html
Completely safe, huh? So, how about 400 PSI? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosionOils4AsphaultOnly said:Let me repeat with CNG. At low pressures (under 300psi) it's in our backyard as cooking fuel or part of the Treasure Island pyro show - completely SAFE. At 3,500 psi, it's a potential bomb, and accidents involving CNG buses are treated as such.
Obviously, we should immediately stop using NG in pipelines, because it can explode and cause casualties.
GRA said:I imagine the main reason is because there's as yet not enough data on CFP tanks to certify them for longer. My scuba tanks are certified to 3,500 PSI and 2,640 PSI (the latter is for tanks that are nominally 2,400 PSI, but a 10% overfill is allowed as long as they pass an extra expansion test), and both have to be pressure tested every five years and visually inspected every year. However, they're steel, and we've got over 100 years of experience with them in that kind of service, with gradually increasing pressures and test intervals as experience was gained and metallurgy and test methods improved. Here's some reasonably current info for Type 4 composite tanks:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:H2 is compressed up to 10,000psi. That number needs to be taken VERY seriously. Heck, even Toyota forbids the use of their tanks after a limited age, regardless of the condition of the tanks!
https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f11/ihfpv_wong.pdfCOMPOSITE TANK TESTING,CERTIFICATION, AND FIELD PERFORMANCE
No one has suggested that tanks under high pressures are as safe as containers that are under low or no pressure. The question is what is the level of risk compared to other options, and how does the risk balance against the advantages and disadvantages of those options.
I'm glad to see that you consider the risks of coal greater than the rewards. What you're saying is that there are varying levels of risk to various fuels and advantages and disadvantages, and we as a society choose which are most important to us. In the case of San Bruno, 8 people died. Big deal. Here's the biggest death toll I could find from a NG explosion in the U.S.:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:YES, we SHOULD! That was a 30" pipe at 400psi. A SIGNIFICANT amount of fuel was present for that fire. Can you imagine how much WORSE that explosion would've been had it been at 1000psi?! I would advocate everyone switching to induction cooktops and heat pump HVAC's (as I've done), but that's not something that everyone can do. I get that. As it is now, NG pipelines is the most cost-effective existing solution. We'll move away from it, when the alternative is cheap enough. However, that doesn't mean I'm advocating for us to move to coal either, which is cheaper still.GRA said:No, I'm talking about both risk and mitigation.Oils4AsphaultOnly said:You're conflating risk assessment with risk mitigation.
Completely safe, huh? So, how about 400 PSI? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosionOils4AsphaultOnly said:Let me repeat with CNG. At low pressures (under 300psi) it's in our backyard as cooking fuel or part of the Treasure Island pyro show - completely SAFE. At 3,500 psi, it's a potential bomb, and accidents involving CNG buses are treated as such.
Obviously, we should immediately stop using NG in pipelines, because it can explode and cause casualties.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/natural-gas-explosion-kills-schoolchildren-in-texasNearly 300 students in Texas are killed by an explosion of natural gas at their school on this day in 1937.
The Consolidated School of New London, Texas, sat in the middle of a large oil and natural gas field. The area was dominated by 10,000 oil derricks, 11 of which stood right on school grounds. The school was newly built in the 1930s for close to $1 million and, from its inception, bought natural gas from Union Gas to supply its energy needs. The school’s natural gas bill averaged about $300 a month. Eventually, officials at Consolidated School were persuaded to save money by tapping into the wet-gas lines operated by Parade Oil Company that ran near the school. Wet gas is a type of waste gas that is less stable and has more impurities than typical natural gas. At the time, it was not completely uncommon for consumers living near oil fields to use this gas.
Yes, I do think the benefits are greater than the risks. I believe we need to stop burning fossil fuels for transportation (and everything else eventually, using the remaining fossil fuels for feedstocks for plastics etc. if we can't find substitutes) and replace our vehicles with ZEVs, with all the health benefits that go along with them, and which far outweigh the risks of the occasional explosion or fire:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:That's exactly what you're advocating when you claim that compressed H2's risks aren't being appropriately balanced against their benefits. From your position, either their benefits are so great that their risks are balanced against it, or that their risks are small enough to justify the small benefits gained. I'm from the camp that sees insufficient benefit for the risks that it poses.GRA said:I imagine the main reason is because there's as yet not enough data on CFP tanks to certify them for longer. My scuba tanks are certified to 3,500 PSI and 2,640 PSI (the latter is for tanks that are nominally 2,400 PSI, but a 10% overfill is allowed as long as they pass an extra expansion test), and both have to be pressure tested every five years and visually inspected every year. However, they're steel, and we've got over 100 years of experience with them in that kind of service, with gradually increasing pressures and test intervals as experience was gained and metallurgy and test methods improved. Here's some reasonably current info for Type 4 composite tanks:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:H2 is compressed up to 10,000psi. That number needs to be taken VERY seriously. Heck, even Toyota forbids the use of their tanks after a limited age, regardless of the condition of the tanks!
https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f11/ihfpv_wong.pdfCOMPOSITE TANK TESTING,CERTIFICATION, AND FIELD PERFORMANCE
No one has suggested that tanks under high pressures are as safe as containers that are under low or no pressure. The question is what is the level of risk compared to other options, and how does the risk balance against the advantages and disadvantages of those options.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/01/20180124-epi.html2018 Environmental Performance Index: Air quality top public health threat
Pipeline and tanker explosions? BFD.Recent research cited by the EPI suggests that around five million people die prematurely every year due to air pollution, accounting for approximately one in every ten deaths annually.
GRA said:I'm glad to see that you consider the risks of coal greater than the rewards. What you're saying is that there are varying levels of risk to various fuels and advantages and disadvantages, and we as a society choose which are most important to us. In the case of San Bruno, 8 people died. Big deal. Here's the biggest death toll I could find from a NG explosion in the U.S.:http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/natural-gas-explosion-kills-schoolchildren-in-texasNearly 300 students in Texas are killed by an explosion of natural gas at their school on this day in 1937.
The Consolidated School of New London, Texas, sat in the middle of a large oil and natural gas field. The area was dominated by 10,000 oil derricks, 11 of which stood right on school grounds. The school was newly built in the 1930s for close to $1 million and, from its inception, bought natural gas from Union Gas to supply its energy needs. The school’s natural gas bill averaged about $300 a month. Eventually, officials at Consolidated School were persuaded to save money by tapping into the wet-gas lines operated by Parade Oil Company that ran near the school. Wet gas is a type of waste gas that is less stable and has more impurities than typical natural gas. At the time, it was not completely uncommon for consumers living near oil fields to use this gas.
300 kids dead in a single event is sure serious, isn't it? I've already mentioned the number of people who die in the U.S. every year in auto accidents (over 100/day), but how about the opioid epidemic, which is responsible for 116 dead every day in the U.S., i.e. every three days more people die of opioid overdoses or auto accidents than died once, 80 years ago in the worst pipeline disaster in U.S. history. Here's a partial list of world pipeline accidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents I expect if you totaled all the dead and injured up, it would be far less than 1 week's worth of auto or opiod deaths in the U.S. alone.
Or how about the U.S. obesity epidemic: (36.5% of all American adults and 17% of children are obese per CDC 2014), as cardiovascular disease is responsible for almost 25% of deaths in this country, and is the leading cause. You're worried about a few deaths in spectacular fashion which happen years or decades apart, instead of the massive but diffuse health risks of our daily life.
Yes, I do think the benefits are greater than the risks. I believe we need to stop burning fossil fuels for transportation (and everything else eventually, using the remaining fossil fuels for feedstocks for plastics etc. if we can't find substitutes) and replace our vehicles with ZEVs, with all the health benefits that go along with them, and which far outweigh the risks of the occasional explosion or fire:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:That's exactly what you're advocating when you claim that compressed H2's risks aren't being appropriately balanced against their benefits. From your position, either their benefits are so great that their risks are balanced against it, or that their risks are small enough to justify the small benefits gained. I'm from the camp that sees insufficient benefit for the risks that it poses.GRA said:I imagine the main reason is because there's as yet not enough data on CFP tanks to certify them for longer. My scuba tanks are certified to 3,500 PSI and 2,640 PSI (the latter is for tanks that are nominally 2,400 PSI, but a 10% overfill is allowed as long as they pass an extra expansion test), and both have to be pressure tested every five years and visually inspected every year. However, they're steel, and we've got over 100 years of experience with them in that kind of service, with gradually increasing pressures and test intervals as experience was gained and metallurgy and test methods improved. Here's some reasonably current info for Type 4 composite tanks:
https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f11/ihfpv_wong.pdf
No one has suggested that tanks under high pressures are as safe as containers that are under low or no pressure. The question is what is the level of risk compared to other options, and how does the risk balance against the advantages and disadvantages of those options.http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/01/20180124-epi.html2018 Environmental Performance Index: Air quality top public health threat
Pipeline and tanker explosions? BFD.Recent research cited by the EPI suggests that around five million people die prematurely every year due to air pollution, accounting for approximately one in every ten deaths annually.
However, you'll be happy to know that H2 providers are now shifting to liquid H2 tanker transport, not from safety concerns but simply because usage and storage per H2 fueling station is growing, and it takes multiple compressed H2 fuel tanker trips per day to meet demand, where a single LH2 tanker can easily meet it. Naturally it won't eliminate all risk, because the stations may still store relatively large amounts on site in compressed form.
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