Toyota bZ4X (previously included Subaru Solterra)

[cwerdna]

Thanks to a post from chevybolt.org, TIL that Solterra reservations begin tomorrow (https://www.solterraforum.com/threads/2023-subaru-solterra-reservations-start-tomorrow.192/), Feb 8th.

 

[OldManCan]

Any new vehicle released with 200 ish mile range with price tags above $35K - $40K will be a hard sell IMHO. Wonder if the battery pack has active TMS in this case. Could not find much on this as of now. Ex-Outback user and I do like Subaru as a car maker but not enticing enough for me.

 

[danrjones]

You can reserve here:

https://www.subaru.com/solterra-reservations

But I agree, hard sell, unless you really need the ground clearance and AWD. Might be one of the cheaper AWD entry model EVS?

 

[gcrouse]

Any new vehicle released with 200 ish mile range with price tags above $35K - $40K will be a hard sell IMHO. Wonder if the battery pack has active TMS in this case. Could not find much on this as of now. Ex-Outback user and I do like Subaru as a car maker but not enticing enough for me.

I haven't gotten much sleep lately so maybe I'm reading this wrong - but if I'm not mistaken that's most of the models on the market for EVs is $35k and up for 200ish to 350ish mile range.

I think you're probably right on the models not likely to be huge sellers but i think that will be on part due to lackluster corporate and dealer support. For what it's worth something like the Subaru would be right up my alley down the road if my financials are in order. The Subaru model will still have the tax credits and Toyota is danger close to phase out so it seems like the only reason to buy the Toyota model over the Subaru is if Subaru doesn't have any dealers in the area.

 

[OldManCan]

I haven't gotten much sleep lately so maybe I'm reading this wrong - but if I'm not mistaken that's most of the models on the market for EVs is $35k and up for 200ish to 350ish mile range.

Sorry for not being clearer. I think I was thinking of the net cost (ie purchase cost minus all relevant incentives) when I made that remark. I imagine the Subaru MSRP will be $45K and up with the net cost being around $35K for 200ish miles. That cost for a 350ish range could still be ok in my simplistic way of looking at this but for 200ish miles will not work at least for me.

The Subaru model will still have the tax credits and Toyota is danger close to phase out so it seems like the only reason to buy the Toyota model over the Subaru is if Subaru doesn't have any dealers in the area.

I think, just by looking at the photos, the Toyota variant seems more civilized, road friendly vs Subaru being designed as a more off-road friendly vehicle. Its hard to make a final call on this until both vehicles are out and we get some side by side comparison reviews come out.

Curious to see the MSRP, tech specs (ie TMS etc) and the road map.

 

[gcrouse]

Car and Driver seems to think approx $37k for the soltera. https://www.caranddriver.com/subaru/solterra

I'm a bit skeptical on that price since everything else on the market seems to be in the $39-42k MSRP rate for the bottom trims.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I'm a bit skeptical on that price since everything else on the market seems to be in the $39-42k MSRP rate for the bottom trims.

They may be able to make it, as each company only had to pay roughly half as much to develop it.

 

[GRA]

Car and Driver seems to think approx $37k for the soltera. https://www.caranddriver.com/subaru/solterra

I'm a bit skeptical on that price since everything else on the market seems to be in the $39-42k MSRP rate for the bottom trims.

The following from the C&D article had better be a typo:

the Solterra makes for a useful travel companion with up to 30 cubic feet of cargo space withthe rear seats folded flat.

The trend towards ever longer wheelbases with ever lower seats-up cargo volumes is seemingly unstoppable, as apparently most people have a need to drive around with their cars full of NBA players most of the time, but this compact CUV is considerably longer than my now 19-y.o. sub-compact Forester. which has 32.0 cu. ft. of cargo volume rear seats-UP, and 64.1 cu. ft. seats-DOWN, i.e. folded flat. If the C&D number is accurate, that's beyond pathetic. These are supposed to be CUVs, for people who need/want flexible Utility, fa' chrissake! :roll: Anything under 50 cu. ft. seats-down would be totally unacceptable for anyone who actually needs to carry stuff, and it should be 60+ in a car of this size.

 

[gcrouse]

Car and Driver seems to think approx $37k for the soltera. https://www.caranddriver.com/subaru/solterra

I'm a bit skeptical on that price since everything else on the market seems to be in the $39-42k MSRP rate for the bottom trims.

The following from the C&D article had better be a typo:

the Solterra makes for a useful travel companion with up to 30 cubic feet of cargo space withthe rear seats folded flat.

The trend towards ever longer wheelbases with ever lower seats-up cargo volumes is seemingly unstoppable, as apparently most people have a need to drive around with their cars full of NBA players most of the time, but this compact CUV is considerably longer than my now 19-y.o. sub-compact Forester. which has 32.0 cu. ft. of cargo volume rear seats-UP, and 64.1 cu. ft. seats-DOWN, i.e. folded flat. If the C&D number is accurate, that's beyond pathetic. These are supposed to be CUVs, for people who need/want flexible Utility, fa' chrissake! :roll: Anything under 50 cu. ft. seats-down would be totally unacceptable for anyone who actually needs to carry stuff, and it should be 60+ in a car of this size.

That makes me think of the slow and steady removal of off road capability from SUVs. I think some bright design teams all started thinking of how they could sell station wagons to people again without anyone realizing they were essentially buying a station wagon - cue the rise of CUVs to people who want all the looks of an SUV but really want a station wagon.

 

[LeftieBiker]

That really isn't fair. A station wagon that is more roomy for its size class, that can drive better on Winter roads (WITH Snow Tires), isn't the same thing as an off-road capable enclosed light truck. After selling giant, heavy, unsafe SUVs to people wanting the above for decades, they are finally doing it right - and I say this as someone who prefers wagons to CUVs. I agree that there should be at least a handful of genuine mini-SUVs, but that doesn't mean that fuel economy should be sacrificed to make every CUV trail-rated.

 

[SageBrush]

for 200ish to 350ish mile range.

It does not make sense to have such a wide range as if it is one market segment.

300+ is a full ICE replacement.
Low 200 is an overweight suburban commuter.

 

[gcrouse]

for 200ish to 350ish mile range.

It does not make sense to have such a wide range as if it is one market segment.

300+ is a full ICE replacement.
Low 200 is an overweight suburban commuter.

EVs represent less than 4% of all autos sold in the US. EVs are for all intents and purposes - one market segment entirely composed of early adopters at this point.

If we are talking ICE replacement for majority of Americans - I've said elsewhere and the DoE has previously concurred - 280 miles of range and a payback period of 5 years for the difference in cost between an EV and ICE vehicle are the minimum metrics needed.

 

[GRA]

GCC:

Toyota to provide bZ4X customers with DC fast charger access through EVgo

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/02/20220225-toyota.html

. . . Customers who purchase or lease a new 2023 Toyota bZ4X will get one year of unlimited complimentary charging at all EVgo-owned and operated public charging stations nationwide.

Customers will be able to use the Toyota App on their mobile device to sign up for this offer, locate EVgo stations and initiate complimentary charging for their new bZ4X.

The bZ4X will have a manufacturer-estimated range of up to 250 miles for XLE front-wheel drive models, with a 355V, 71.4 kWh battery pack. . . .

Just wondering if it's time to split the topic, as these two get closer to availability and their details increasingly start to diverge?

for 200ish to 350ish mile range.

It does not make sense to have such a wide range as if it is one market segment.

300+ is a full ICE replacement.
Low 200 is an overweight suburban commuter.

EVs represent less than 4% of all autos sold in the US. EVs are for all intents and purposes - one market segment entirely composed of early adopters at this point.

If we are talking ICE replacement for majority of Americans - I've said elsewhere and the DoE has previously concurred - 280 miles of range and a payback period of 5 years for the difference in cost between an EV and ICE vehicle are the minimum metrics needed.

And other surveys say 320 or so is needed here in the U.S. That should be a real 320, not EPA before all the downward adjustments for HWY vs. Combined, temps, HVAC, terrain, reduced SoC range for longevity/charge times/reserve, wind, degradation etc. I consider all the current crop of 250-300 mile EPA BEVs* to be good for only two hours +-30 minutes cruising at freeway speeds in the real world west, between charges from say 20-80%. Given that a 20% reserve in most of these cars provides <=60 miles of reserve, FC stations are currently often spaced that far or farther apart and lack nearby competing sites, and activating them is of uncertain reliability, as a practical matter that means you have to stop every hour or so to charge enough to be sure you can reach the next station beyond the closest one if for any reason you're unable to charge at the closest one, lest you be stranded or severely delayed enroute due to the need to L2 charge (if available) to reach the next FC.


*Tesla being an exception, as their Supercharger activation reliability is/should be higher as they only have to deal with their own cars/payment, rather than having to be compatible with multiple makes and payment methods. It's still Tesla's biggest benefit for road trips, but that advantage will decrease as the density of CCS stations increases, and with the addition of nearby competitors at a given location. In many cases, providing competition at each existing site is more valuable than providing increased density, as far as minimizing travel times and stops by increasing reliability and confidence. As an example, on my way to Yosemite there are EA, CP and EvGO stations within a mile of each other in Tracy, CA, so if one doesn't work I've got two others nearby as immediate backups. The only problem is that Tracy is really too close to home, but fortunately there are now three sites spaced at 10-15 mile intervals (CP, EA, CP) much closer to Yosemite that I can use. It would still be more convenient to have two of those sites in the same town, even if it meant doing without the third one.

 

[danrjones]

I think it needs to be even more than that. And it depends on where you live and what type of vehicle it is, and what you do.

As an example, I went skiing with my son in Mammoth a week back on a Friday. We left my house around 4:30 and got to the resort around 7:30, in order to make sure we had a good parking spot and had time to rent his gear. (Growing too fast to buy expensive gear for him)

It is 178 miles one way, plus about 7,000 feet NET elevation gain - probably more gross. There is no time to charge, unless I want to leave even earlier in the morning. There is no chargers at the ski resort parking lot. So I require enough range to get to the resort, ski, and then get back down to a charger on the way home. Even better, my current Outback didn't even require a refuel on the way home! It made it both ways easily. That would be ideal for a REAL EV replacement, that is, it truly matches a ICE. But at a minimum, it needs to get me to the resort and then back down in the evening to a charger.

So some examples using ABRP:

The Ioniq 5 RWD: it can MAYBE make it one way without charging, leaving my house at 100% and arriving at 7% but it would NOT make it back to a charger, thereby requiring at 20+ minute stop in Bishop on the way there and another stop in Coso Junction on the way home. So, this is a FAIL.

A tesla model 3: Arrives at the lodge with 25%, but requires a stop in Bishop on the way home. So it isn't a fail, but it isn't an ICE replacement either.

Both of these are run with limiting my speed to 72 mph, no wind, no battery degradation, and weather at 50f. Not realistic.

For second or third vehicles, both are great. But neither could have done the trip I wanted, how I wanted, and that means FOR ME they aren't true ICE replacements. If you look at the 10-80% range, I'd need 400 miles or more of REAL WOLRD highway range within that 10-80%. And I can think of even harsher scenarios... last summer I went camping in my truck, and I had to get out to eastern Nevada through the desert, with long stretches of nothing. Certainly no chargers.

And that's really the crux of the issue, it totally depends on who you are and what you do. If you live in a city, and never do big trips, almost any EV works. You live in the west, like to go places especially off grid, nothing yet works. Not if you truly looking in terms of requiring parity.

 

[GRA]

I think it needs to be even more than that. And it depends on where you live and what type of vehicle it is, and what you do.

As an example, I went skiing with my son in Mammoth a week back on a Friday. We left my house around 4:30 and got to the resort around 7:30, in order to make sure we had a good parking spot and had time to rent his gear. (Growing too fast to buy expensive gear for him)

It is 178 miles one way, plus about 7,000 feet NET elevation gain - probably more gross. There is no time to charge, unless I want to leave even earlier in the morning. There is no chargers at the ski resort parking lot. So I require enough range to get to the resort, ski, and then get back down to a charger on the way home. Even better, my current Outback didn't even require a refuel on the way home! It made it both ways easily. That would be ideal for a REAL EV replacement, that is, it truly matches a ICE. But at a minimum, it needs to get me to the resort and then back down in the evening to a charger.

Agree with your example; OTOH, downhill ski resorts are just about ideal locations for L2 charging given the longish dwell times and relatively high existing power demands, albeit snow clearance can be an issue - in discussions with the relevant person in Yosemite, they cited that and the short season as the main reasons they decided against putting chargers at Badger Pass. Upgrading the electric supply if necessary is also an issue inside the park, but wouldn't be at Mammoth. In addition, Mammoth obviously needs one or more FC stations, as it's primarily a destination town in winter but a gateway town the rest of the year. Alternatively (see relevant topic), a battery swap station with a compatible car; Although I'd still prefer more, I could live with stopping every 3 hours for a 3 minute swap, if it let me do the same again ad nauseum.

Currently the only chargers in Mammoth are at lodging. Only 1 site is shown on Plugshare right now; there used to be at least three. Any idea what happened to the others?

So some examples using ABRP:

The Ioniq 5 RWD: it can MAYBE make it one way without charging, leaving my house at 100% and arriving at 7% but it would NOT make it back to a charger, thereby requiring at 20+ minute stop in Bishop on the way there and another stop in Coso Junction on the way home. So, this is a FAIL.

A tesla model 3: Arrives at the lodge with 25%, but requires a stop in Bishop on the way home. So it isn't a fail, but it isn't an ICE replacement either.

Both of these are run with limiting my speed to 72 mph, no wind, no battery degradation, and weather at 50f. Not realistic.

For second or third vehicles, both are great. But neither could have done the trip I wanted, how I wanted, and that means FOR ME they aren't true ICE replacements. If you look at the 10-80% range, I'd need 400 miles or more of REAL WOLRD highway range within that 10-80%. And I can think of even harsher scenarios... last summer I went camping in my truck, and I had to get out to eastern Nevada through the desert, with long stretches of nothing. Certainly no chargers.

And that's really the crux of the issue, it totally depends on who you are and what you do. If you live in a city, and never do big trips, almost any EV works. You live in the west, like to go places especially off grid, nothing yet works. Not if you truly looking in terms of requiring parity.

Agreed, even more is needed to be full liquid fossil-fuel ICE replacements. The survey I referred to was the range at which mainstream consumers would consider the cars adequate for the majority of their needs. MY personal requirements are much like yours: I want at least four hours (5-6 preferred) at western freeway speeds, at least 75 but preferably 80 mph, plus at least a 1/2 hour reserve at no more than 5 mph slower, with allowances for all the above, for the life of the car. Right now, about the only car that even approaches the base numbers is the Lucid Air with a brand new battery, and I have my doubts as to how close it would come in the real world:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpcMcgxjiL8[/youtube]

It's about as far as you can get from being a mainstream-priced car. FCEVs can just about fully replace ICEs now, albeit they're still more expensive (economies of scale would fix that), but they remain limited by the current lack of infrastructure and the price of H2.

 

[OldManCan]

https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-says-new-solterra-ev-sells-out-first-72-hours

 

[cwerdna]

Prices are near the bottom of https://pressroom.toyota.com/the-future-is-now-toyota-launches-all-new-bz4x-suv-battery-electric-vehicle/.

I only skimmed https://insideevs.com/reviews/579297/2023-toyota-bz4x-first-drive-review/ in the morning.

 

[cwerdna]

Manuals and warranty booklet are out for BZ4X:
https://www.toyota.com/owners/resources/warranty-owners-manuals.bz4x.2023

 

[GRA]

The range isn't there. And that front end treatment is, uh, distinctive.

Do we split this topic now?

 

[GRA]

Post deleted, moved to new Subaru Solterra topic here: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=33287