Thinking of Leaf - best package, recommendations, lease?

[tinaCA]

DH and I live in CA, we currently share one car (gas, good MPG). We drive it a total of about 16k/year together. We used to carpool in the same direction but I changed employers and now go in the opposite direction. Since I commute on the highway about 40 miles RT, I would love to be able to use the carpool lane, and my employer has rapid chargers as does DH's employer, and the bay area has plenty of public chargers too.

We currently pay $250/mo on our financed vehicle and about $250/mo in gas, plus public transit for DH about $125/mo. So total transportation costs about $625/mo and inconvenience factor of the public transit situation and no carpool access for me.

So, we've been eying the Leaf lease deal thinking if we trade in our current car, we can put down $4k and have 2 cars with about $500/mo ongoing costs (we're not including tires, insurance etc because we already pay those items of course). Electricity rates are cheap so we don't expect that to be significant.

Questions:

1. Our current car was our first brand new car purchase (previously we always bought cars at least 10 years old) and I feel like with our lack of experience we failed to get the best deal. I'd appreciate tips for the best deals on the Leaf - model, packages, and other things to be aware of when negotiating (IF we negotiate this). Will our interest in buying 2 of the cars be a good bargaining chip?

2. We understand we can get the cord upgraded to be compatible with a 220 outlet which we can easily install in our carport. We're not too concerned about the charge time etc with the availability of charging at work and public places, but how long does the Leaf take to charge to full with the modded cord and 220V outlet, is it same as the charge stations ie about 4-5 hours?

3. Are there software quirks to be aware of? Our current car has a cool infotainment system but it's very buggy. Other known issues to watch out for (we already know extreme temps affect battery life etc)

4. Has anyone been in an accident, who has child seats, how is the safety factor?

Anything else you'd like to share about being a Leaf driver?

 

[Boomer23]

At this point in time, I only recommend leasing the LEAF, not buying. That's because significant improvements may be coming in the next few years, including more temperature tolerant batteries, a choice of larger battery sizes, and a complete model update within two or three years. I hate to be stuck with outdated technology because I bought instead of leased. Of course, if the current model LEAF meets your needs, you don't mind being outdated and you don't like leasing, go ahead and buy if you like.

If you become a 100% electric household, how are you going to handle the occasional longer trip? Do you need a gas car occasionally? Are you willing to rent or borrow a car if you need a longer range car occasionally?

1. Yes, you should be able to negotiate better if you are getting two cars at once. Someone else should be able to give you an idea of realistic prices to pay in the Bay Area at this time. Check the "I Got my LEAF" thread for starters. If you're buying, work to get at least $1,000 per car discount, and probably closer to $2,000 per car with a multi-car deal and end of year discounting.

2. If you get the LEAF S model (base model) without the charger upgrade, Level 2 (240 volt) charging from empty would take about 8 hours. If you get the charger upgrade on the S model, or if you get a LEAF SV or SL, you'll have the more powerful on-board charger and a full charge would take about 4 hours. But you're rarely going to need to charge from empty, so figure about 3 hours with the quicker charger. The SV and SL also give you a more efficient heater so that those cold N Cal mornings won't sap your range as much.

3. Infotainment works fine on the LEAF, including Bluetooth audio from your phone, satellite radio, Pandora, etc. The Nav system interface is pretty crap. It works fine, but it's not intuitive or slick to use.

4. Safety ratings are good for the LEAF. I haven't heard of any serious injuries in accidents. The LEAF seats three across in the rear, and we routinely place our DGD's car seat in the rear center position, which should be the safest place in the car.

Other stuff: Never trust the GOM ("guessometer", distance to empty miles meter), especially the mileage estimate when the car is just finished charging. It usually over-estimates range, and new drivers get anxious when the range estimate drops 10 miles in the first 3 miles of driving. That being said, though, in the newer LEAFs, the GOM has been improved, and I have to say that it's now pretty accurate in the middle of its range. Read the wiki on this site and download Tony Williams' range chart to get a good idea of how far you can drive at various speeds on flat ground. Always remember that elevation changes will affect an EV more obviously than in an ICE car, so expect to be able to drive less far on a given battery charge on uphill trips. Downhill trips will get you further than the GOM would predict.

You should definitely go for the LEAF, I'd say, given your commutes and the availability of charging. If you need to make frequent longer trips, you might look at a LEAF and a Volt in combination.

 

[DoctorSaul]

The Leaf is a GREAT car, but I'd recommend that you not do two Leafs (Leaves?). I think it wiser to have at least one car in your family that can do a spur-of-the-moment drive that would exceed 70 to 90 miles, which is the current limit for the Leaf. Maybe consider an inexpensive gas or hybrid? Honda, Hyundai, and Kia have some pretty impressive, and inexpensive, offerings that do not limit your miles when out and about for your second car.

I agree with everything else that Boomer23 states, including the wiseness of leasing over purchase. The lease deals that Nissan is doing are spectacular. Leasing also allows you to get the full $7500 federal tax rebate. If you don't lease, you need to file for the rebate when you file your income tax return. If your tax is less than $7500 you will not get the full rebate. Leasing also puts the burden of battery failure on Nissan, for up to 3 years. If you purchase the car, when the manufacturers warranty expires based on mileage (I think it was 50,000 miles), then your battery warranty also expires, even if it is less than 3 years.

I also agree with Boomer23 that the SV is a much better deal than the S model for not much up charge.

 

[RonDawg]

Leasing also puts the burden of battery failure on Nissan, for up to 3 years. If you purchase the car, when the manufacturers warranty expires based on mileage (I think it was 50,000 miles), then your battery warranty also expires, even if it is less than 3 years.

Nissan's battery capacity warranty guarantees at least 9/12 bars for the first 5 years or 60k miles.

I do agree that the OP should have at least one petroleum-powered car or hybrid as a second car. While it is possible for some to go all-electric (and a few have on this forum), it takes a lot of discipline (to ensure the car is charged every night) and pre-planning (to make sure you don't come home on an empty battery and realize you have to go somewhere far quickly). You'll still need a "backup plan" such as a car-sharing membership, or access to a friend or relative's or neighbor's car.

If the SO is already using public transit, I would say keep the current car as the backup for when public transportation is not convenient (bad weather for example) or for when the Leaf is not practical. Since you financed and did not lease there is a good chance that you are currently "upside down" on the equity of the car, unless you are almost done paying for it. And if you are almost done paying for it, keep it! The savings on gas you can use to pay for a lease on a Leaf.

 

[DoctorSaul]

"Nissan's battery capacity warranty guarantees at least 9/12 bars for the first 5 years or 60k miles".


RonDawg is correct. Pardon my mistake.

 

[LeftieBiker]

For the best combination of low overhead cost and low fuel costs, I suggest a Leaf and a Prius PHEV. The latter ("PIP") has a very limited EV range (roughly 9-14 miles), but used as a 'super hybrid' (EV mode in cities and slow traffic and Hybrid mode on the highway) it can get in excess of 80MPG on short commutes like yours, with no range anxiety. Leasing isn't necessarily the only way to go with the PHEV, but the incentives may make it so. Unlike the Leaf the PIP is a car to consider keeping, and the lease buyout price is good - about $17k.

 

[tinaCA]

We're not interested in buying a new hybrid: 1) our current car is very gas efficient (about 40 MPG highway, 30 MPG average) so the cost would not be justified, hybrids still require trips to gas station and regular combustion engine maintenance such as oil changes, in fact I see them as almost twice the maintenance you have battery and combustion engine to think about 2) the carpool stickers - primary reason for considering an e-car - are limited.

As to whether Leafs are suitable for our lifestyle, needing a backup car etc that is something I think DH and I know best. We almost NEVER drive further than 50 miles in a day. We may drive up to wine country or something (~80 miles one way) once a year or less, in which case we could easily rent a car. I don't want to pay for a car all year long just for the very occasional trip, we are daily local users of cars not road trip people and we want our car(s) to reflect that usage. Also for those not familiar with the bay area, there are literally public chargers everywhere here. We could easily drive 40 mi to Santa Cruz, plug in for 4-5 hours while we had fun, then drive home charged up. I am not worried about this at all.

Continuing to use public transport - obviously that would be more economical but we are doing that now due to the change in our commute and DH has schedule changes next academic quarter which will make it even less convenient, so we do not want to do that long term.

Adding just one Leaf is a possibility but the gas car does not get carpool access so we would not both regain that convenience. Also, with one leased Leaf we'd have a 10k mile per year limit so we'd not be able to take full advantage of using it as the primary car (we'd go over the mile limit that way). But this is why I asked if anyone had experience buying 2 at once, if there was a discount likely - since that would be an incentive to do both at once.

We're not significantly upside down on the current car even though we've only owned it 2 years, but other than not wanting to shell out more a lot more money, finances are not the primary concern - convenience/carpool access is a significant factor for us as saving time in our commute (especially mine which has increased) is worth money to us.

Does Nissan include roadside assistance and full bumper to bumper warranty on leased vehicles? We have this on our current car but paid extra for it.

So I'm most interested in experienced owner's input on the best price point for models/packages, anything you wish you knew before buying/leasing a Leaf, etc!

Also: I have seen on the forum references to the CA tab rebate with leased vehicles, am I reading that right I assumed the $2500 state tax rebate is only available for purchased vehicles, like the federal $7500 (which factors in to the lease price in this case)? It seems that leased vehicles qualify for this, would would more than offset the $2000 down payment (and yes we owe sufficient tax needed to take advantage of a rebate): https://energycenter.org/programs/clean-vehicle-rebate-project" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for your help so far.

 

[TimLee]

"Nissan's battery capacity warranty guarantees at least 9/12 bars for the first 5 years or 60k miles".


RonDawg is correct. Pardon my mistake.

Although "capacity warranty guarantees 9/12 bars for the first 5 years or 60K miles" is technically correct, stating it that way is very confusing to many people.
It would be a lot clearer to everyone if the capacity warranty is stated as "the capacity warranty does NOT provide for replacement until you hit 8/12 capacity bars, which according to Nissan personnel in the late summer of 2013 meeting in Phoenix is 66.25% capacity".
Nissan does refer to (rounded up) as 70% capacity, but according to Nissan personnel, it is actually 66.25% capacity.
If replaced under the capacity warranty, they are not guaranteeing a new battery (although that is what all the capacity warranty replacements to date have been to the best of my knowledge). They could put in a used battery that only provides 9/12 bars, i.e. 72.5% capacity.

Original post edited for correction 12-02-2013 @ 17:06 EST.

 

[Berlino]

We may drive up to wine country or something (~80 miles one way) once a year or less, in which case we could easily rent a car.

No need, charging stations are sprouting like vines in Napa. For example, http://napavalleyregister.com/news/...cle_11c305b8-3841-11e3-97f1-001a4bcf887a.html

Also: I have seen on the forum references to the CA tab rebate with leased vehicles, am I reading that right I assumed the $2500 state tax rebate is only available for purchased vehicles

From what I've read on the forum, the state rebate is available on leases that are for at least 36 months.

Someone mentioned there's a bill to have California sales tax only assessed on the post rebate price of EVs, making for an $800 savings based on 8% sales tax. Anyone have an update on that?

 

[tinaCA]

Yes and there are FREE charging stations in all garages in our town, charging/range is not really a worry for me!

 

[RonDawg]

"Nissan's battery capacity warranty guarantees at least 9/12 bars for the first 5 years or 60k miles".


RonDawg is correct. Pardon my mistake.

Just flat out wrong :!: :!: :!: Why do people keep stating this :?: :?: :?: :?:
The Nissan capacity warranty does NOT provide for replacement until you hit 8/12 capacity bars, which according Nissan personnel in the late summer of 2013 meeting in Phoenix is 66.25% capacity.
Nissan does refer to it as 70% capacity, but according to Nissan personnel, it is actually 66.25% capacity.

Are you talking about me or DoctorSaul? If me, I'm not sure how my statement is "flat out wrong" based on what you are saying.

 

[tinaCA]

I confirmed with a dealership and local leaf leaser - yes we get the $2500 if the lease is 36 months AND we keep the car that period. They are offering a 24 month lease $70/month with $3000 down but that would not qualify for the rebate.

 

[planet4ever]

"Nissan's battery capacity warranty guarantees at least 9/12 bars for the first 5 years or 60k miles".

Just flat out wrong :!: :!: :!: Why do people keep stating this :?: :?: :?: :?:
The Nissan capacity warranty does NOT provide for replacement until you hit 8/12 capacity bars

People keep stating it because it is right. I don't understand what you are arguing about, Tim. You are both saying the same thing. If the battery drops to 8 bars, Nissan will bring it back up to at least 9 bars. Therefore you can depend on always having at least 9 bars, in the same sense that you can always depend on having brakes that work. (Well, "always" for the first 60 months or 60K miles, whichever comes first.)

Ray

 

[planet4ever]

Adding just one Leaf is a possibility but the gas car does not get carpool access so we would not both regain that convenience. Also, with one leased Leaf we'd have a 10k mile per year limit so we'd not be able to take full advantage of using it as the primary car (we'd go over the mile limit that way).

If the commute is short enough you could use the carpool but, as I'm sure you are already aware, Bay Area carpoolers hate slow drivers. I would figure a 1/3 reduction in range if you use the diamond lane. The leases, by the way, are normally 12K/year, not 10K, and you can get 15K.

So I'm most interested in experienced owner's input on the best price point for models/packages, anything you wish you knew before buying/leasing a Leaf, etc!

In the Bay Area I think the most important options are the Quick Charge port and the 6 kW on-board charger. Those are standard on the SV and SL and can be gotten on the cheaper S model by adding the Charge Package. That S model package also gives you a backup camera, which is useful, though not as good as the one you can get on the SV and the SL as part of the Premium Package. Other key things missing on the S are cruise control, navigation, remote access, more timers, and a more efficient heater. There are some lighting and sound upgrade options on the SV and SL that aren't available on the S. As you can see from my Sig, I picked the S, because I didn't care much about most of those extras (though I would like to have had cruise control).

Here is a good reference to all the features and options. Click on Specs at the top of the page.

Ray

 

[tinaCA]

Thanks Ray... I really am not concerned about range as my workplace has tons of Blink chargers in every garage, and it's only 20 miles one way. I don't plan to "hypermile"!

By remote access you mean the remote heat/cool etc not remote door unlock, I assume? I just test drove an S with the QC/cam package. The QC package is required for level 2 charging/Blink stations etc or only the super rapid charge available at some places? I have not owned a Nissan before and find the packages/options a bit confusing.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I believe he means the Carwings service, which lets you do things like remotely start (but not stop, oddly) charging, set the climate and charge timers, and view the charge level (in bars, not percents of charge). It's glitchy and annoying, but it can be accessed either from an Android phone or via the website on your computer. It's very handy despite its flaws.

A few suggestions. First, don't pay a lot up front for a low monthly payment; pay nothing down and "fold" all the costs into the monthly payment. Why? Because if the car is wrecked you will likely lose any down payment and have to start over with a new lease. Second, get an SV instead of an S model. There are lots of people with the S who regret not getting the SV (or SL) but few in the opposite situation. Just not having cruise control was a dealbreaker for me on the S. Finally, if you have to park a lot, get the Premium Package with the "All Around View" camera system. It's so much better than just a backup camera!

 

[planet4ever]

By remote access you mean the remote heat/cool etc not remote door unlock, I assume? I just test drove an S with the QC/cam package. The QC package is required for level 2 charging/Blink stations etc or only the super rapid charge available at some places?

Sorry I was too cryptic on the remote features. Leftie stated it much more clearly. I didn't find remote computer access to the car very valuable when I had it (on my 2011) even though I park in the driveway. The Bay Area doesn't really have "weather", and I swear it took longer for my computer to communicate with the car than it did to walk out there myself.

Level 2 charging is available on all LEAFs, with or without the QC feature. But there is a 3.3 kW on-board charger which is standard on the S model and a 6 kW charger which is standard on the SV and SL. If you get the Charge Package on the S it includes an upgrade to the 6 kW charger. The difference is that if you want to go down to Santa Cruz and charge there, you might need to charge for five hours to get enough to get back home if you have the 3.3 kW charger, but you can get that same charge in three hours or a bit less with the faster one. This really makes a difference if the yellow low battery lights come on on the dash and you are 25 miles from home. You could stretch and make 15 miles, but you will probably need another 3 or 4 kWh to make 25. That's an hour or more of sitting waiting for the car to charge if you have the slow charger, but not much over half an hour if you have the faster one. And if you happen to be close to a QC station, it's 5 minutes or so.

Leftie is right that there have been a number of people who snapped up a bargain S model without knowing what they were getting into. I knew, and decided it was right for me, and I'm happy with my decision. All my life I've driven economy cars, including several VW Bugs and campers in the '60s through '80s. I like my cars simple. I actually prefer having real dials on the radio and climate controls. For me, having pictures from cameras on all four sides of the car would be visual overload, like trying to go to Yahoo instead of Google.

Ray

 

[LeftieBiker]

For me, having pictures from cameras on all four sides of the car would be visual overload, like trying to go to Yahoo instead of Google.

You'd think it would be like that, but that better describes trying to back up with a regular back-up camera. The AV system has a screen with a graphic representation of the car, surrounded by actual views from the four cameras. You can see how close you are to the curb (front and rear) and how close to any objects infront of and behind you. This on top of (alongside of, really) the usual back-up camera view, augmented with visual sight lines. It's a huge improvement over everything before it.

 

[jsongster]

The utility of the quick charger is real... especially in sf bay area. It means you can easily get to sacto, santa rosa, or san jose from sf. Even in cold weather, even from an 80% initial charge. This can mean the diff in only commuting, or really relaxing about range. I have had mine 3 months now... it is my main car... I almost never drive my old car. 130 mile or loger weekend drives to most destinations around the area are easy with a modicum of opportunity charges... ie charging whenever you are near one if you are hopping around the area all day long.

Love my LEAF! It is a joy to drive, never stopping for fuel, not adding to the asthma problem, not giving our country more reasons to get entangled in this screwy world.

Good luck with yours. I purchased... cause I also have a short commute, and the weather is mild here.

 

[RonDawg]

By remote access you mean the remote heat/cool etc not remote door unlock, I assume?

Sorry I was too cryptic on the remote features. Leftie stated it much more clearly. I didn't find remote computer access to the car very valuable when I had it (on my 2011) even though I park in the driveway. The Bay Area doesn't really have "weather", and I swear it took longer for my computer to communicate with the car than it did to walk out there myself.

One thing to note about CarWings is that here in the US, Nissan subscribes with AT&T Wireless to provide this service. If you live in an area where AT&T has poor or non-existent coverage, CarWings will not work very well for you. That was the case at my home until about 6 months ago, when AT&T (confirmed via my iPhone) seems to have added more cell sites.