The unofficial Leaf dropout thread

[DaveinOlyWA]

Well I did both or have both. I did sign a disclosure form and I also have one that is not signed so um mmm.... Whatever

 

[edatoakrun]

So, I should have qualified my original statement, l and now restate it as:

AFAIK, Nissan required all its dealers to have all new LEAF owners and lessees sign the same document,
which stated that "exposure to very high ambient temperatures" was one of the factors that may "hasten" loss of battery capacity....

Happy now?

So surfingslovak, if your dealer failed to get you to sign the disclosure, and you were otherwise ignorant of the information it contained, I suppose you might have a legitimate complaint against the dealer who failed to complete their contractual obligations to both you and Nissan....

Yes, that's better, thank you. I'm not quite content however. The disclosure says "exposure to very high ambient temperatures for extended periods of time". There is an important semantic difference between your quote and the actual document. I'm sure that someone who as detail-oriented as you are can appreciate that, Ed.

Moreover, not only does the disclosure not quantify that statement further, it fails to assign any priority to the four factors it recounts. Given how quick charging and its effects on battery health was in everyone's mouth last year, you would think that this was the most important factor that will hasten the rate of capacity loss.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9529&start=170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I cannot provide a link to the entire disclosure document. I typed in, verbatim, as indicated by the quotation marks, those words I saw as most important to the discussion.

I don't quite see why you think my omission of "...for extended periods of time..." was significant.

Does anyone believe that "...exposure to very high ambient temperatures for (short) periods of time..." is a very significant cause of capacity bar loss?

As to the rest of your comment, I think my original post addresses some of your points.

And when you quote me, or anyone else, please provide a link to the page, so that the entire comment, and the context in which it was made, can be seen.

hill wrote:

Btw, I'd probably be PO'd if anyone got a new/rebuilt pack, simply because they frequently drove harder, charged to 100% more regularly in 100+ degree heat - etc. What reward is there for those of us who've babied their Leafs, other than better battery life. A reward for one group is a tacit slap in the face to the other group. And THAT's why Nissan will basically going to give early battery killers nothing.

ALLWATZ wrote:

That statement is a little offensive (actually, it's very offensive) to those of us who have lost capacity, "baby" our Leafs and our only condition is living in a hot climate. Sure you wouldn't like to mention how homeless people don't take enough showers or give your views on "legitimate rape".

edatoakrun

All of us signed a disclosure statement when you bought or leased your LEAF that stated that "exposure to very high ambient temperatures" was one of the factors that may "hasten" loss of battery capacity.

Clearly, battery capacity loss due to climate was one of many factors each of us had to consider, before deciding to drive a LEAF.

The fact that climate will probably be a greater factor in battery life than most believed, and Nissan revealed, does not mean that you now are a helpless "victim" of your climate. It does mean that any action to compensate for battery capacity loss greater than expected, due to climate, will have to be carefully considered by Nissan, so as to not shift those costs to other LEAF drivers.

And neither should anyone be called a "battery killer", just because they decided to use their own LEAF in any way they chose.

It's just a battery. And like every other battery, it will have a useful "life" largely determined by conditions of use.

IMO, the largest question now, is how much it will cost to replace the battery pack, when and if that becomes necessary.

And I think an announcement of replacement/reconditioned battery pack costs, trade-in values, and any cost adjustment by Nissan for hot climate-accelerated capacity loss, will be the ultimate solution, to the problem.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9529&start=130" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

the FFE is off our list primarily because it lacks a QC port. We have a decent growing QC network in WA and the FFE would be too range limited given what we have become accustom to doing with the Leaf. The Volt is range unlimited, selling well, holding up well and holding it's value... not much of a surprise that it would be the alternative to the Leaf for now.

I agree that if you're in coastal Oregon/Washington, a QC has considerable value and there's little need for a TMS [Edit: unless you plan to do multiple QCs in a day regularly], so the FFE is not as good an option.

I'm mildly surprised that so many people seem to be going for the Volt without (apparently) considering the FFE. Maybe they just find the range too restrictive, or don't want to have to worry about it regardless of what happens down the road?

Maybe after living with a BEV they're not as enamored of the concept as they thought they'd be? When my lease runs out I'm not planning on getting another BEV. There are hassles and it's a limited purpose vehicle.

I don't doubt that there are some people who bought a BEV largely on emotion, and now that the honeymoon period is over and they are looking at dealing with the car for the long-term, its limitations loom much larger than they did when euphoria reigned. I know that I strive to never buy a car when excited for just that reason. Passion is short term; affection is long-term.

Hell, when I first started reading MNL I was plotting out ways to make my usual out-of-town trips with a BEV, which typically would have involved many hours of charging at inconvenient locations, and driving at speeds or on roads that were unsafe or tedious. Maybe an exciting adventure the first time you do it, but excruciating on a regular basis if you have to do it that way. In short, fine for a stunt but not a practical use.

In a fairly short time I came to the point where I said to myself "trying to use a BEV for this purpose, given the current limitations on batteries and infrastructure, is ridiculous." After that, I began looking at them strictly rationally and conservatively, deciding which niche(s) they were currently suited for and saying the rest will have to wait for improvements. And that niche is a commute/urban vehicle, with a 40 mile practical range for the long term, in most conditions. As you move outside of that niche it gets harder to justify.

All that being said, there are people on this forum for whom the EV range of the Volt is inadequate but for whom the Leaf's range is fine, who could justify a FFE to handle the environmental conditions. So far, there's only been one owner who's said he's considering the change, and it's that small number that surprises me.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Now if the charging infrastructure were pervasive and ubiquitous, losing 20, 30% of capacity would be no big deal.

Only if those charging stations are at work. You could have them at every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse and doghouse but most people wouldn't want to be inconvenienced having to stop and hang out at them every day just to complete their commute.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...All that being said, there are people on this forum for whom the EV range of the Volt is inadequate but for whom the Leaf's range is fine, who could justify a FFE to handle the environmental conditions. So far, there's only been one owner who's said he's considering the change, and it's that small number that surprises me.

As others have said elsewhere: the FFE appears to be a CARB compliance car that has extremely limited availability.

Contrary to what I thought a couple of years ago, it now seems very clear that Ford really isn't interested in BEVs. So, even if the FFE has an active TMS that will use the AC to chill the battery in very high ambient temperatures (does it?) why would anyone buy the FFE?

 

[GRA]

...All that being said, there are people on this forum for whom the EV range of the Volt is inadequate but for whom the Leaf's range is fine, who could justify a FFE to handle the environmental conditions. So far, there's only been one owner who's said he's considering the change, and it's that small number that surprises me.

As others have said elsewhere: the FFE appears to be a CARB compliance car that has extremely limited availability.

Contrary to what I thought a couple of years ago, it now seems very clear that Ford really isn't interested in BEVs. So, even if the FFE has an active TMS that will use the AC to chill the battery in very high ambient temperatures (does it?) why would anyone buy the FFE?

It does, and that's why people in very hot (or very cold) climates would buy it in preference to a Leaf (assuming it works for them otherwise), plus the generally better performance/handling and (some say) interior. The car's availablility is currently limited*, but if sales take off why wouldn't Ford expand them? They're being built on a Focus production line, and Ford has said that they can ramp FFE production up or down to meet the demand.

*[Edit] Not so much, actually. From Wiki:

"Because initial production of the 2012 model year is limited, the Focus Electric will be available initially only in 19 metropolitan areas including Atlanta, Houston and Austin, Texas, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Detroit, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, New York City, Orlando, Florida, Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona, Portland, Oregon, Raleigh-Durham, Richmond, Virginia, Seattle, and Washington, D.C."

 

[ALLWATZ]

Just looked at the NHTSA web site and only 7 of us have filed a complaint out of the 50+ cars that have reported capacity loss issues! Come on guys!! Take a moment and fill out the form. As per their statement online "Before initiating an investigation, NHTSA carefully reviews the body of consumer complaints and other available data to determine whether a defect trend may exist." 7 out of 50+ does not a body make. :x If only 7 Pinto owners had complained, we'd all be driving around with gas tanks strapped to our rears.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...All that being said, there are people on this forum for whom the EV range of the Volt is inadequate but for whom the Leaf's range is fine, who could justify a FFE to handle the environmental conditions. So far, there's only been one owner who's said he's considering the change, and it's that small number that surprises me.

As others have said elsewhere: the FFE appears to be a CARB compliance car that has extremely limited availability.

Contrary to what I thought a couple of years ago, it now seems very clear that Ford really isn't interested in BEVs. So, even if the FFE has an active TMS that will use the AC to chill the battery in very high ambient temperatures (does it?) why would anyone buy the FFE?

It does, and that's why people in very hot (or very cold) climates would buy it in preference to a Leaf (assuming it works for them otherwise), plus the generally better performance/handling and (some say) interior. The car's availablility is currently limited*, but if sales take off why wouldn't Ford expand them? They're being built on a Focus production line, and Ford has said that they can ramp FFE production up or down to meet the demand.

*[Edit] Not so much, actually. From Wiki:

"Because initial production of the 2012 model year is limited, the Focus Electric will be available initially only in 19 metropolitan areas including Atlanta, Houston and Austin, Texas, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Detroit, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, New York City, Orlando, Florida, Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona, Portland, Oregon, Raleigh-Durham, Richmond, Virginia, Seattle, and Washington, D.C."

That Wiki information is very dated. The FFE rollout was much slower than expected and the availability is much less that originally projected. Good luck trying to find a dealer that handles the FFE in most of those markets listed.

I stand by what I wrote.

 

[GRA]

That Wiki information is very dated. The FFE rollout was much slower than expected and the availability is much less that originally projected. Good luck trying to find a dealer that handles the FFE in most of those markets listed.

I stand by what I wrote.

I don't doubt that it's been slower than anticipated, just as BEV sales have been. But clearly Ford has every intention of rolling them out widely (even if they're just available in CA/NY/NJ now), so it's just a matter of time. Earlier in the Wiki it said that those additional 16 markets would be opened up in the third quarter of 2012, so we're not there yet. If you are in one of those markets where the lack of a TMS in the Leaf is an issue, then this provides a BEV answer to your problem. Ford is obviously aware of this opportunity:

http://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can%E2%80%99t-stand-heat-122447.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or you can get a Volt or soon, a Fusion or C-Max.

 

[grommet]

Don't forget about CODA Automotive. ;-)

 

[GRA]

Don't forget about CODA Automotive. ;-)

Unfortunately, Coda seems to be moribund.

 

[Valdemar]

...I have been given the finger many times by drivers coming up behind me to overtake in the slow lane but I really don't care any more...

Interesting, sounds like seeing a finger can help to maintain your Leaf's battery health. Any volunteers to calculate correlation coefficient so we can discuss this from a scientific angle?

 

[hill]

I'm thinking this thread and the "Said goodbye to the Leaf yesterday" thread should be combined.

if so, the title of this thread feels more likely to ring Nissan's bell. Anything that helps them understand the gravity of the situation is good in my book and I think this thread acts more as a tally of those exiting the Leaf market.

I have to say, we are seriously conflicted. For those of us who must consider the resale value of the Leaf and avert loosing our shirts, we are in a very tenuous position... just as the QC network is starting to take off . . . . . . . . . . snip

Now THERE's a person who obviously doesn't live in the LARGEST MARKET - So Cal. :lol: . . . . . where logic would dictate that (due to mild climate & large population) the largest concentration of leafs would necessarily be. And yet - So Cal has only two public Chademo's ... and three Chademos's if you count Mitsubishi's graciousness in letting Leaf'ers use their corporate QC. What a sad statement - that almost 2 years into the new EV movement, that all of L.A. county - San Berdoo county - San Diego County - Ventura County - Riverside County - STILL remain virtually quick charger challenged. The fact that there's a 'reason' ... or an 'excuse' - is no excuse. It's a statement . . . . I leave it to others to fill in the blank of what that statement is. Nissan ought to be embarrased - AND greatful that as many So Cal Leafers still remain loyal . . . . for now.

.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Now THERE's a person who obviously doesn't live in the LARGEST MARKET - So Cal. :lol: . . . . . where logic would dictate that (due to mild climate & large population) the largest concentration of leafs would necessarily be. And yet - So Cal has only two public Chademo's ... and three Chademos's if you count Mitsubishi's graciousness in letting Leaf'ers use their corporate QC. What a sad statement - that almost 2 years into the new EV movement, that all of L.A. county - San Berdoo county - San Diego County - Ventura County - Riverside County - STILL remain virtually quick charger challenged. The fact that there's a 'reason' ... or an 'excuse' - is no excuse. It's a statement . . . . I leave it to others to fill in the blank of what that statement is. Nissan ought to be embarrased - AND greatful that as many So Cal Leafers still remain loyal . . . . for now.

.

Gary; you hit upon the biggest issue EVs face today. ya, thats right, batteries take a backseat to this (especially when the fix is essentially a no-brainer)

what good is a car that gets 400 miles on a tankful of gas in a country that only has gas stations 500 miles apart? (go to parts of Australia if you think this is not realistic)

how popular do you think gas stations would be if branded stations ONLY sold to people who had their branded gas card?

it would be nice if we had 20 years to wait for private industry to get the EV charging network established but i personally dont think we have the time.

i cannot shake the feeling i am "it" in a game of "smear the queer" and everyone else outweighs me by 100 lbs.

will it be Global Warming
War
Oil Shortages
Environmental Damage caused by looking for, digging for or processing Oil?
or will our financial foundation give way under the weight of our foreign oil debt?

EVs are right for so many people but change is hard and we need to make it obvious or we need to make the alternative unbearably painful

 

[wishboneash]

I'm thinking this thread and the "Said goodbye to the Leaf yesterday" thread should be combined.

if so, the title of this thread feels more likely to ring Nissan's bell. Anything that helps them understand the gravity of the situation is good in my book and I think this thread acts more as a tally of those exiting the Leaf market.

I have to say, we are seriously conflicted. For those of us who must consider the resale value of the Leaf and avert loosing our shirts, we are in a very tenuous position... just as the QC network is starting to take off . . . . . . . . . . snip

Now THERE's a person who obviously doesn't live in the LARGEST MARKET - So Cal. :lol: . . . . . where logic would dictate that (due to mild climate & large population) the largest concentration of leafs would necessarily be. And yet - So Cal has only two public Chademo's ... and three Chademos's if you count Mitsubishi's graciousness in letting Leaf'ers use their corporate QC. What a sad statement - that almost 2 years into the new EV movement, that all of L.A. county - San Berdoo county - San Diego County - Ventura County - Riverside County - STILL remain virtually quick charger challenged. The fact that there's a 'reason' ... or an 'excuse' - is no excuse. It's a statement . . . . I leave it to others to fill in the blank of what that statement is. Nissan ought to be embarrased - AND greatful that as many So Cal Leafers still remain loyal . . . . for now.

.

The same situation applies to Northern California as well. Lots of Leafs and EVs but hardly any Level 3 chargers. Even the L2 network is pathetic compared to the urban areas of Oregon and Washington.

 

[cwerdna]

i cannot shake the feeling i am "it" in a game of "smear the queer" and everyone else outweighs me by 100 lbs.

will it be Global Warming
War
Oil Shortages
Environmental Damage caused by looking for, digging for or processing Oil?
or will our financial foundation give way under the weight of our foreign oil debt?

EVs are right for so many people but change is hard and we need to make it obvious or we need to make the alternative unbearably painful

Problem is, outside of the circles of EV enthusiasts, environmentalists and real hybrid owners (GM's two-mode and BAS hybrids don't count), many (or most?) don't care about the above, don't care enough to make a change or fail to/are unwilling to see any of the above.

I've seen it all too many times on other forums, on both car and non-car forums. I avoid the topic of AGW amongst those people because there are the doubters and deniers. But the issue of military, flow of $ to foreign countries, and where most of the world's oil resides I always bring up.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i cannot shake the feeling i am "it" in a game of "smear the queer" and everyone else outweighs me by 100 lbs.

will it be Global Warming
War
Oil Shortages
Environmental Damage caused by looking for, digging for or processing Oil?
or will our financial foundation give way under the weight of our foreign oil debt?

EVs are right for so many people but change is hard and we need to make it obvious or we need to make the alternative unbearably painful

Problem is, outside of the circles of EV enthusiasts, environmentalists and real hybrid owners (GM's two-mode and BAS hybrids don't count), many (or most?) don't care about the above, don't care enough to make a change or fail to/are unwilling to see any of the above.

I've seen it all too many times on other forums, on both car and non-car forums. I avoid the topic of AGW amongst those people because there are the doubters and deniers. But the issue of military, flow of $ to foreign countries, and where most of the world's oil resides I always bring up.

ya its like the company that encourages their employees to increase production to help pad the bottom line then suddenly announces they are closing because they are not profitable.

employees complain that they were left out of the loop and could have "made a difference" but that is not human nature works. look as us, we have an issue, report it to Nissan, waited 14 seconds, got no response and assume the sky is falling down around us and that EVs will be a distant dream within months.

 

[TonyWilliams]

look as us, we have an issue, report it to Nissan, waited 14 seconds, got no response and assume the sky is falling down around us and that EVs will be a distant dream within months.

A wee bit over the top, wouldn't you say?

 

[surfingslovak]

look as us, we have an issue, report it to Nissan, waited 14 seconds, got no response and assume the sky is falling down around us and that EVs will be a distant dream within months.

A wee bit over the top, wouldn't you say?

Dave, I admire your commitment to EVs and can only imagine what you have gone through with the Zenn. That said, can you name another lithium-ion EV, which will lose 10% of range with moderate use in a temperate climate? I can't think of one. If owners don't trust manufacturers, they only have themselves and their dog and pony show to blame.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

look as us, we have an issue, report it to Nissan, waited 14 seconds, got no response and assume the sky is falling down around us and that EVs will be a distant dream within months.

A wee bit over the top, wouldn't you say?

ok a poor example of using selective facts as mis direction to the real root cause of the issue at hand which is exactly what the environmental issue is.

how about illegal immigrants? this is a better example anyway. most feel that the US has become a welfare state because we have too many people enjoying the benefits of living in the US but dont pay their fair share of taxes so we blame illegal immigrants for our shortages funding public services but who is REALLY on the dole?

is it immigrants or big business? there is a thread that complains about some sort of cost for the HOV lanes but that came about because of inadequate funding and that inadequate funding came about thru the lack of corporate taxes.

i bet if Apple paid taxes in the state of Cali, Cali would have a lot more money to help support these illegal immigrants but Apple does not. so Apple uses our freeways for NOTHING. so who is a "welfare" recipient here?

but once again, its the old shell game in action. we dont raise the federal gas tax because it would affect businesses too much. iow, they would have to pay more of the "fair share"

so, now we get back to Nissan and my comments. When "advising" of an issue that is pending, we cannot be "realistic" because every single word is examined and the definition is pushed to the extreme edges that matches our mood at the time which normally does not correlate even slightly with the issue at hand.

the funny thing about batteries; we know all the issues upfront. its a relatively transparent issue (ya i know most of us think Nissan is hiding something but they are hiding much less than most companies) and we know a lot more about it than we do about nearly every issue we face today.

with that, i think i will buy some songs on itunes so i can help pay for a child's education in Luxembourg