The RAV-4 PHEV Topic
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Yes but for a $50k BEV you still have to charge for an hour or more every 200-250 miles, several times/year we do 500 miles or so per day, with our current Prius and I'd guess the Rav4 Prime one 5 minute fill and we'd be done.SageBrush said:
Don't get me wrong, a BEV is nice for it's lack of ICE and ICE issues but for someone trying to get down to 1 vehicle I'd really like more flexibility, oh and I know you were talking about Orient but the nicely equipped model I'm looking at is $10k less and just under $40k. Most nice SUV'ish BEVs I've seen are probably closer to $60k than even $50k.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
The advantage of a PHEV is for that 5% of the use cases of long distance travel in areas that charging infrastructure is less developed, and the time penalties of having to recharge every 150-200 miles because of the range of a BEV at freeway speeds. No 300+ Mile BEV is going to have that range staying up with traffic.
I presume the 'staying with traffic' euphemism is driving at 75 - 80 mph.OrientExpress said:
That is true today, but I expect it to not be true in ~ 2 years when Tesla is able to make a Model Y with 400 EPA mile range, so about 300 miles on a full charge at the speeds you want to drive.
Will Toyota be happy with their product if it ends up having a two year shelf life ?
OrientExpress
Well-known member
Certainly there is a good chance there will be a $60-80K BEV that can make a real-world 300 mile run at 80 mph, but it still won’t be a mainstream product. Even being able to achieve this modest 300 mile goal, BEVs will still be outclassed in range by any number of under $30k ICE vehicles. In this regard BEVs are still 20 years behind ICEs
As Jeff points out, the RAV4 SE Prime can be had for about the same price as a 62 kWh LEAF SL, so then what is the better choice, a LEAF or a RAV4, especially if long distance travel scores higher in the purchase decision.
And at the same time there is a huge selection of ICE vehicles in every category that are $30 or less that have real world 80/500 ranges. I have a 2021 Rouge sitting in my driveway right now and it has a full tank range of 502 miles. The RAV4 Prime has a full tank and charge range around 720 miles.
So with all the alternatives available, and the BEVs long-distance Achilles Heel not really going away anytime soon, a PHEV like the RAV4 will have a long life, and be more valuable in the resale market than a BEV.
For next week I ordered up a Niro PHEV to see how it compares to the RAV4 Prime. I think that PHEV SUV/CUVs have real potential to give BEVs serious competition, especially for long distance travel.
PZEV Range when you need it, ZEV responsibility for the rest of your driving needs.
Moving forward by this time next year my vehicle fleet will most likely be a 5-door PHEV SUV and a 5-door BEV.
As Jeff points out, the RAV4 SE Prime can be had for about the same price as a 62 kWh LEAF SL, so then what is the better choice, a LEAF or a RAV4, especially if long distance travel scores higher in the purchase decision.
And at the same time there is a huge selection of ICE vehicles in every category that are $30 or less that have real world 80/500 ranges. I have a 2021 Rouge sitting in my driveway right now and it has a full tank range of 502 miles. The RAV4 Prime has a full tank and charge range around 720 miles.
So with all the alternatives available, and the BEVs long-distance Achilles Heel not really going away anytime soon, a PHEV like the RAV4 will have a long life, and be more valuable in the resale market than a BEV.
For next week I ordered up a Niro PHEV to see how it compares to the RAV4 Prime. I think that PHEV SUV/CUVs have real potential to give BEVs serious competition, especially for long distance travel.
PZEV Range when you need it, ZEV responsibility for the rest of your driving needs.
Moving forward by this time next year my vehicle fleet will most likely be a 5-door PHEV SUV and a 5-door BEV.
It just doesn't play out that way in real life for a lot of people, and that includes me from my year of owning the Prius Prime.jjeff said:
On 500 mile drives during a day you start with a full charge, take a short stop, take a longer stop to eat, take a short stop and then arrive at the destination. No waiting for the car to charge.
More problematic for the PHEV though is that you will learn to hate it when your EV turns into a clanker. That may well be worth the $10k difference for you. Or not
OrientExpress
Well-known member
My impressions in the short time with the Volt and the RAV4 is that you get 50-60 miles of pure electric driving, and after that the electric propulsion just augments the gas engine. Even with just that we still were averaging between 35- 50 mpg, which was fine, and more than adequate range.
So the advantage for us in going to LA or Santa Barbara from the Bay Area is that it is still a one tank drive and after a 4 hour charge we were on pure electric for our time in LA.
That’s meets my wife’s wants for her next vehicle. I’m still advocating a nice long-range BEV like a Polestar, Ariya, or ID4 for the 95% car, and my fully paid 450 mile range GTI for those long distance drives.
Question, what is a “clanker ”? Or did you mean clunker?
So the advantage for us in going to LA or Santa Barbara from the Bay Area is that it is still a one tank drive and after a 4 hour charge we were on pure electric for our time in LA.
That’s meets my wife’s wants for her next vehicle. I’m still advocating a nice long-range BEV like a Polestar, Ariya, or ID4 for the 95% car, and my fully paid 450 mile range GTI for those long distance drives.
Question, what is a “clanker ”? Or did you mean clunker?
I'm guessing that he meant "combustion engine."
You are bringing back memories from 15 years ago.OrientExpress said:
The car turns into a hybrid, meaning an ICE that runs in high(er) efficiency power bands more of the time.
As for energy consumption in EV mode, it will be about the same as you would get in a BEV of the same class car, same driver, same conditions. Around 3 miles per kWh in a CUV/SUV for routine driving, a lot less at 80 mph
WetEV
Well-known member
OrientExpress said:
Depends on your driving habits and needs, of course.
If you really often travel beyond the range of a BEV, then PHEV might make sense. Especially if you travel to some of the less traveled corners of the USA. Suppose you had relatives in Opheim, MT, that you visited several times a year. Or similar.
If you lived in Opheim (population 85), a plain old gasser might be the best choice.
If you don't often travel beyond the range of a BEV, and the DCQC infrastructure supports the trips you are likely to take, then a BEV is going to look increasingly attractive. Better in many ways, less vibration, less stink, less mess, less time taking it to gas stations, oil changes and such, quieter, ...
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
There is just no sense of adventure with a PHEV.
The number of suv EVs is going to go up rapidly this year to come. Even faster in Europe.
The number of suv EVs is going to go up rapidly this year to come. Even faster in Europe.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
DougWantsALeaf said:
Yes, but the BEV infrastructure and range at speed still lags expectations from those that are new to BEVs and only have their ICE experiences to guide them.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
True for a gen 1 (24/30) and gen 2 Leaf (40) II would agree.
I very rarely hear complaints from EV owners who have a vehicle with over 200 miles epa range.
The anecdotal exception personally is with earlier model X owners. My boss and another in that echelon (who can afford a X new), were disappointed in the range achievable with the car. She would instead in only take their M3 Perf. outside of the state. They have since swapped out the car with a Y, and haven't heard much since. I believe the 90X was rated over 200 miles, but she used a magic 2.5-3 electric mile (rated mile) to 1 actual mile conversion to stay out of trouble with the car. (And come to think of it, the 90s were the one battery Tesla had with higher rate of issues).
Bolt, Plus, eTron, iPace, Niro, all are on the the smaller side of 200 miles range and rarely you hear a peep about range anxiety. Guessing it will be the same with ID4.
Landscape is changing quickly.
I very rarely hear complaints from EV owners who have a vehicle with over 200 miles epa range.
The anecdotal exception personally is with earlier model X owners. My boss and another in that echelon (who can afford a X new), were disappointed in the range achievable with the car. She would instead in only take their M3 Perf. outside of the state. They have since swapped out the car with a Y, and haven't heard much since. I believe the 90X was rated over 200 miles, but she used a magic 2.5-3 electric mile (rated mile) to 1 actual mile conversion to stay out of trouble with the car. (And come to think of it, the 90s were the one battery Tesla had with higher rate of issues).
Bolt, Plus, eTron, iPace, Niro, all are on the the smaller side of 200 miles range and rarely you hear a peep about range anxiety. Guessing it will be the same with ID4.
Landscape is changing quickly.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
It would be nice if it today's generic BEV shortcomings were limited to just one marque, and everyone was a BEV enthusiast.
But the chronic shortcomings of BEV infrastructure and battery range and performance that every BEV on the market today has when compared to the status-quo of the ICE installed base will continuer probably the rest of the decade.
Remember when going on long distance travel in the family Truckster required stopping about 150-200 miles before the tank needed refilling? Those in today's ICE world probably never experienced it because it was a time before they were born.
Today's $50K BEV owner takes those same shortcomings in stride along with the inability to just drive wherever on whatever road they wish with no advance planning and having to wait 30 minutes or more to recharge for the next 150-200 mile leg. That type of performance in a $25K ICE econobox would not be acceptable or tolerated today. In the focus groups that I have access to the data, the number one objection for new BEV intenders is the fragile and limited charging infrastructure and long-distance real-world range.
Eventually the BEV experience will equal that of today's ICE, but it is not yet here, and that lack of a mindless driving experience that is a hallmark trait of the ICE is a rude awakening for the new BEV owner.
But the positive part of this is that long distance driving in a BEV is still an adventure full of unknowns and unexpected twists and turns. It is almost sad that some day long distance BEV travel will be mundane and uneventful, or even more so once the ADAS systems mature to provide a true automated driving experience.
But the chronic shortcomings of BEV infrastructure and battery range and performance that every BEV on the market today has when compared to the status-quo of the ICE installed base will continuer probably the rest of the decade.
Remember when going on long distance travel in the family Truckster required stopping about 150-200 miles before the tank needed refilling? Those in today's ICE world probably never experienced it because it was a time before they were born.
Today's $50K BEV owner takes those same shortcomings in stride along with the inability to just drive wherever on whatever road they wish with no advance planning and having to wait 30 minutes or more to recharge for the next 150-200 mile leg. That type of performance in a $25K ICE econobox would not be acceptable or tolerated today. In the focus groups that I have access to the data, the number one objection for new BEV intenders is the fragile and limited charging infrastructure and long-distance real-world range.
Eventually the BEV experience will equal that of today's ICE, but it is not yet here, and that lack of a mindless driving experience that is a hallmark trait of the ICE is a rude awakening for the new BEV owner.
But the positive part of this is that long distance driving in a BEV is still an adventure full of unknowns and unexpected twists and turns. It is almost sad that some day long distance BEV travel will be mundane and uneventful, or even more so once the ADAS systems mature to provide a true automated driving experience.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
my 75 Camaro with a 350 small block only did about 220 miles on a tank...on the highway. 19 gallon tank
My 2007 Sedona Minivan only did 12 miles per gallon locally (18-22 highway), or just over 220 or so miles to empty in day to day driving.
So my Leaf Plus (S+ at least) out does both of them in that metric. A Model 3 LR would do even more so.
Refueling is at home, so its already better.
My 2007 Sedona Minivan only did 12 miles per gallon locally (18-22 highway), or just over 220 or so miles to empty in day to day driving.
So my Leaf Plus (S+ at least) out does both of them in that metric. A Model 3 LR would do even more so.
Refueling is at home, so its already better.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
Unless your house is on wheels, home charging doesn't have much value on a road trip.
That's the issue, long distance travel which in most cases is the 5% task. For the other 95% of travel around you local area, BEVs are the perfect car.
For that 5% task the options are:
Drive a modern ICE that has a 400-500 mile range at highway speeds
Drive a modern PHEV that has a 700 mile range at highway speeds
Drive a BEV that has a 150-200 mile range at highway speeds, along with the added 30-45 minute charge time for every 150-200 mile segment.
That's the issue, long distance travel which in most cases is the 5% task. For the other 95% of travel around you local area, BEVs are the perfect car.
For that 5% task the options are:
Drive a modern ICE that has a 400-500 mile range at highway speeds
Drive a modern PHEV that has a 700 mile range at highway speeds
Drive a BEV that has a 150-200 mile range at highway speeds, along with the added 30-45 minute charge time for every 150-200 mile segment.
Sounds about right ... for a LEAFOrientExpress said:
But not for a Tesla today, let alone a Tesla in 2-3 years if battery day pans out. Today's Teslas average ~ 150 - 180 kW during a Supercharger hopping trip session, and Musk talked up 250 kW when the 4680 cells are being used.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
If you watch Kyle's Outofspecmotoring channel on you tube. When doing the long trips, with the M3 and gen 3 superchargers, it was only about a 15 min stop every 120-140 miles. Not perfect, but barely more than a bathroom stop.
That mirrors my experience ... after I use up the overnight charging. I have not taken a trip in 2020 so my memory is dulled a little but I'm hard pressed to remember any Supercharger stop where I waited more than 10 minutes for the car and typically the car is ready before we are. And since we always have one long-ish stop during a long days drive when the car can charge to full capacity I find this entire concern trolling by @orient to be worth a big yawn.DougWantsALeaf said:
