Smear Campagn against EV's being waged by Oil & Auto industr

[Herm]

It's not going to be a better place - nothing is improving as long as China's and India's consumption is growing by leaps and bounds.

Their consumption will be limited by costs, ours too.

 

[lpickup]

Their consumption will be limited by costs, ours too.

Yes, and they will be far more motivated to solve these issues by doing things like driving (and building) EVs, which if we don't get our heads out of rears, we'll end up being technologically behind them and buying their EVs at whatever price they can get for it!

 

[Sarterfish]

Saying it's better environmentally to keep your old ICE's running and use them to te fullest is just completely illogical reasoning from a greenhouse gas emission perspective.

I disagree. My ICE is a Prius, therefore a way smaller environmentally negative footprint than the Hummers and Suburbans my neighbours drive. When I choose to sell the Prius, that will replace someone's highly polluting gas guzzler, and hopefully the world'll be a better place for it, if ever so slightly..

It's not going to be a better place - nothing is improving as long as China's and India's consumption is growing by leaps and bounds. While our gasoline demand fell a few percent in the last 10 years, theirs has doubled, so it's no use but 12/21 is almost here, the aliens will bring some good tech along with them and the LEAF can at least hold us over

LOL!! It's good to see humor is still alive even in our dwindling days! China is also making uge strides forward in alternative energy... though I doubt it is keeping up with their growth and consumption, it may some day. Their motivation is not altruism, is is economic; PROVING that the model WORKS! They however have a disticnt advantage over us wereby if the government says "build green energy sector", it happens, PERIOD! There's no debate, no voting, no oil industry spin against... In some ways, it is much more efficient system of government. We are hamstrung by too many voices at times, and it's hard to see through the "deception for personal gain" in the US.

 

[mkjayakumar]

None of what this guy says make any sense at all. He essentially says the larger the battery in a car, the more inefficient it is and hence concludes that ICE cars are more efficient and environment friendly. I have never seen a more nonsensical, agenda driven crap like this:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/553191-confessions-of-an-ev-pioneer-turned-heretic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Sarterfish]

None of what this guy says make any sense at all. He essentially says the larger the battery in a car, the more inefficient it is and hence concludes that ICE cars are more efficient and environment friendly. I have never seen a more nonsensical, agenda driven crap like this.

http://seekingalpha.com/?source=yahoo#article/553191-confessions-of-an-ev-pioneer-turned-heretic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure exactly which guy you're speaking of, but yes that argument is unbelievable stupid... Every village has always had an idiot! Or it very well could be that there are infiltrators posting here from Oil and ICE based industries! Good thing we're mostly rational, thinking human beings on this Forum and can see right through the bullsh*t!

 

[mkjayakumar]

Of course I am referring to the author of that article.

What scares me is, judging from the comments there are a huge number of low IQ folks who seem to be lapping it up. These agenda driven tactics are actually working.

 

[Sarterfish]

Well it won;t stop the world from changing around us, and even the village idiot eventually sees the folly of his inaction... we're just going to be to far behind to catch up if the idiots keep arguing over even the reality of climate change... You want to talk scary? Look up http://heartland.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

He probably means that the larger the battery the heavier the car and less efficient it is.. and that is so but electricity is only $0.11 a kWh so who cares?.

BTW, your link did not work.

 

[Sarterfish]

That doesn't really work that way. The new Tesla's have a HUGE battery pack, that's how they are getting close to 300 miles from their new Model "S" sedan. Still a VERY efficient vehicle! Also, supremely luxurious, fast, smooth, quiet and comparably priced to similar Lexus and other luxury sedans starting at $49,900. Ten take $10,000 off for incentives and you ave what I consider an incredible deal for a super luxury, high performance, hand crafted, and VERY environmentally responsible veicle for the upper middle class. See http://www.teslamotors.com/models" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Their cars should be blowing away the competition, and are AMERICAN BUILT!!!

As far as the link I posted, just google "Homeland.org" and be prepared to be dumbfounded by ignorance!

 

[GRA]

It seems to me to keep driving an old, inefficient, low mileage, or less EPA regulated vehicle and keep spewing more CO2 into the atmosphere is exactly what we need to prevent here! I have a 1982 Mazda RX7 that runs just fine but SPEWS exhaust as it also injects oil into the rotor chamber, ( and therefore burns it ), too keep the seals lubricated. I occasionally drive it, but feels a bit guilty when I do. It's a 30 old classic in great shape that I could probably get another 150-200k mile on, but it would be horribly irresponsible to do so. In Cuba you typically see cars from the 50's and 60's that have been kept alive. The world world would be far better off in just a few years time for ALL these vehicles to be scrapped, recycled, even with the emissions of producing new EV's. I think this is once again Oil Industry spin, disguised to look like something approaching environmentally sound reasoning. Saying it's better environmentally to keep your old ICE's running and use them to te fullest is just completely illogical reasoning from a greenhouse gas emission perspective.

For an example of a contrary view, with numbers included, you might try "How to Live a Low-Carbon Life: the individual's guide to stopping climate change" by Chris Goodall. Goodall's a Brit so the numbers he gives for the typical UK car aren't a straight read across to the U.S. (where we drive more miles and have larger, more powerful cars); however, he also gives some numbers for the U.S.

Added: Here's an online resource (first one I found) saying much the same thing:

http://environment.about.com/od/environmentfriendlyautos/a/new_old_cars.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, as far as lowering an individual's transport emissions he puts even more emphasis on flying, as in DON'T!

The article you posted says "The Environmental Cost of Hybrids and Electric Cars
And don’t forget that the new hybrids—despite lower emissions and better gas mileage—actually have a much larger environmental impact in their manufacture, compared to non-hybrids. The batteries that store energy for the drive train are no friend to the environment—and having two engines under one hood increases manufacturing emissions. And all-electric vehicles are only emission-free if the outlet providing the juice is connected to a renewable energy source, not a coal-burning power plant, as is more likely. "

Most ALL of this is complete Oil Industry spin.

1. EV batteries are 80 to 90% recycled at the absolute end of their life, (below 10-20% capacity). Between 20% and 70% capacity batteries can and will be used in home energy storage systems now in production my Nissan and a company called "4R-RENERGY"... and will actually help balance the new smart grids. Look it up.
2. Ev's don't have "two engines" they have one motor, which is FAR simpler, lighter, more reliable/dependable, and way lower emission in production than ICE's. Even a small engine and a motor is a far more efficient use of resources.
3. Even EV's using coal fired plants for power, (which are on their way out), are FAR more efficient and energy/emission economical than gasoline engines.

In closing, I'm not sure who you really are, but I am beginning to suspect there's a worm in the apple that is this forum...

You're free to believe whatever you wish, but I did say that it was the first response that popped up on google. If anyone wishes to repeat the search I used:

http://www.google.com/search?q=environment+keep+old+car+or+buy+new&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just skimming the quoted sections, opinions generally seem to be on the side of keeping the old car although some do qualify that with some variation on "depending on the specific conditions, i.e. mileage of the old car versus the new one, how far you drive, etc.", which is no more than reasonable, and is why I've said (repeatedly) that it's arguable. Judging by the sites, I think it fair to say that very few of them are likely to be fronts for big oil. And I'd say it's even more unlikely for Goodall, who is described in the author blurb on the book as "chair of telecommunications software company Dynmark International, a member of the UK Competition Commission and Utilities Appeal Panel, and the Green Party's Parliamentary Candidate for Oxford West and Abingdon. Pretty tricky of Big Oil, to infiltrate the UK Greens and get them to run their shill for Parliament :lol:

 

[mkjayakumar]

BTW, your link did not work.

Thanks. I fixed it now.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/553191-confessions-of-an-ev-pioneer-turned-heretic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Sarterfish]

No GRA, it's really not "tricky" at all. The Oil and status quo Auto Industry have HUGE MONEY,and HUGE POWER to lobby, shift agendas, and corrupt. They are so entrenched in government it is hard to tell them apart at times. Money and Power corrupt even the best intentioned governments, companies, and individuals... we see it happen every day.

This brings me back to another very important question; When one has knowledge of the damage to human health and well being and now even the health of all global life, at what point does it become criminal to continue to push one's agenda for the sake of yet more record profits, in every increasingly environmentally damaging ways? (I.e., the Alberta Tar sands bitumen mining project, and the associated Keystone Pipeline project). We've seen many successful suits against the tobacco industry for harm and misleading advertising and information that negatively affected peoples lives. I personally look forward to the days coming soon that we will see similar litigation levied toward any industry, (inclding Oil ,gas, and Auto) that degrades and threatens the health, safety, and living conditons of not just humans, but of all life on earth!

 

[Sarterfish]

...and NO, I'm not an attorney nor do I care for litigation. But human health and safety, and the health of our planet is FAR MORE IMPORTANT Than any industy's profits, or their survival even in my opinion.

 

[DaveEV]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/553191-confessions-of-an-ev-pioneer-turned-heretic

The author pushes about 1 article a week bashing EVs, in particular lithium batteries while promoting Axion which he is a large stakeholder of.

 

[Herm]

That doesn't really work that way. The new Tesla's have a HUGE battery pack, that's how they are getting close to 300 miles from their new Model "S" sedan. Still a VERY efficient vehicle!

Yes, it does work that way..

Has the EPA released the MPGe ratings for the Tesla Model S yet?.. so far the heavier Coda and Fisker have received relatively low MPGe ratings, most likely due to mass but aerodynamics will also affect that in the hwy portion of the test cycle.

 

[Herm]

The author pushes about 1 article a week bashing EVs, in particular lithium batteries while promoting Axiom which he is a large stakeholder of.

Oh!, that guy... pffff

There was some news from Axion recently, they may not be dead after all.. it could be a lower cost way of feeding high power to fast chargers and avoid demand charges:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/axion-power-receives-initial-norfolk-southern-order-for-pbc-batteries-2012-04-26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Axion Power International Inc , the developer of advanced lead-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, today announced that it has received an order from Norfolk Southern Corp (NS) for PbC batteries for use in a battery-powered locomotive. Axion Power said this first $400,000 purchase order is part of a $475,000 total purchase order, that will be used in the commissioning of Norfolk Southern's NS-999. The total purchase order will be shipped and deployed in the next 90 - 120 days. To date, this is the largest single PbC battery order that Axion has received. No further details were disclosed."

 

[Sarterfish]

That doesn't really work that way. The new Tesla's have a HUGE battery pack, that's how they are getting close to 300 miles from their new Model "S" sedan. Still a VERY efficient vehicle!

Yes, it does work that way..

Has the EPA released the MPGe ratings for the Tesla Model S yet?.. so far the heavier Coda and Fisker have received relatively low MPGe ratings, most likely due to mass but aerodynamics will also affect that in the hwy portion of the test cycle.

Wow, never thought I'd have to argue the merits of EV efficiency on this forum... I get 75 to 100 miles range on less than $1.50 of electricity. With gas at $4.50/gal that equats to between 225 to 300 mpg in dollar terms. I don;t think the EPA rated it that high, but that's my REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. Actual savings will vary according to your driving habits and city/hwy usage. I'm not going to bother replying to rediculous negative posts any longer unless they ave a very real point backed up by real world experience. It seems no place is safe from Big O & friends! Too bad, but that's the unfortunate reality of our current "free" corporate/political system. Here's to healthy debate but lies and misinformation, or just igniorance based on spin without real experience really bothers me.

 

[GRA]

No GRA, it's really not "tricky" at all. The Oil and status quo Auto Industry have HUGE MONEY,and HUGE POWER to lobby, shift agendas, and corrupt. They are so entrenched in government it is hard to tell them apart at times. Money and Power corrupt even the best intentioned governments, companies, and individuals... we see it happen every day.

This brings me back to another very important question; When one has knowledge of the damage to human health and well being and now even the health of all global life, at what point does it become criminal to continue to push one's agenda for the sake of yet more record profits, in every increasingly environmentally damaging ways? (I.e., the Alberta Tar sands bitumen mining project, and the associated Keystone Pipeline project). We've seen many successful suits against the tobacco industry for harm and misleading advertising and information that negatively affected peoples lives. I personally look forward to the days coming soon that we will see similar litigation levied toward any industry, (inclding Oil ,gas, and Auto) that degrades and threatens the health, safety, and living conditons of not just humans, but of all life on earth!

Last time I checked, the auto industry is also rather large and politically powerful. Since they're in the business of selling new cars, you might suppose that they are capable of counterbalancing Big Oil in their own interests. But it's really not worth arguing about -- there's plenty of information out there in print and on the web (including the link I provided), and people can easily determine which argument they find more convincing given their own particular circumstances.

 

[Sarterfish]

Unfortunately the US auto industry really doesn't want EV technology to take hold either... have you see any commercials AT ALL about the recent release of the Ford Focus EV? The US auto industry and the US Oil industry have ad a looong and happy marriage and many alliances have been indelibly formed. This is how and why they defeated EV legislature in the 90's, and as you should know, Exxon Mobile bought and shelved a patent then for a battery breakthrough with a 330 mile range. G.M. not only repossesed all the EV-1's they had out, (tHey chose ONLY to lease them), they then proceeded to not just mothball the fleet, they GROUND THEM UP INTO SMALL UNRECOGNIZABLE PIECES so on one could eve3r use them again!
Not an argument, just facts.

 

[Sarterfish]

If you all haven't already, see "Who KIlled the Electric Car", a small "Sundance Film Festival" award winning documentary film from 2005. If you're even a bit thoughtful and curious like I was it will shock and enrage you, and hopefully galvanize us all in how important a mission we are ALL part of. Here's the link. http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thankfully, I don't think the Auto and Oil industrty will succeed in supressing the technology and infrastructure this time around, as the whole world has woken up to the realities of Climate Change, and the rest of the thinking world WANTS the EV at least in part as an alternative. We as a nation are mostly the victims of huge pressure by very powerful industries to attempt to keep us ignorant and in the dark... THAT is why I started this thread in the first place!