Range Recommendations from Gudy?

[DaveEV]

Have you adjusted for the added weight, drag, and other factors for the LEAF?

Nope - no other changes.

I figure they are actually fairly similar despite the drastic differences in vehicles.

The Tesla Roadster has a higher drag coefficient - but it has a smaller frontal area than the LEAF.
The Tesla Roadster weighs less - but it has stickier tires than the LEAF.

Those range numbers seem to exceed most anecdotal reports.

I would expect the numbers to slightly exceed anecdotal reports because most of those would likely include some amount of wind, hills, etc which would reduce range a bit.

 

[mwalsh]

I would expect the numbers to slightly exceed anecdotal reports because most of those would likely include some amount of wind

Ooh, thanks for the reminder....the headwinds were freakin' tornadic when I drove in Nashville too!

 

[gudy]

This article is interesting and I will be very curious to know more. I drive to Plesanton every day from Milpitas on 680 N and then back on 680 S. Its 26 miles one way to reach work. I have to deal with sunol grade each way and I drive at 70 miles/hr most of the time. I do not hypermile as I always get bombarded with stones.

So I have a 52 miles round trip commute. Often during the week @ lunch etc I run some errands (approx 10 - 15 miles). So I expect to drive atleast say 70 - 75 miles per day on average....

It will be interesting to see how the Leaf is going to work out for me. It would also change my driving habits so I am all excited. Worse case if it does have limitation I can give to my wife who has a 15 mile one way commute and I can drive her car.

Now if only Nissan can get my car delivered...

You'll be perfectly fine.

 

[Smidge204]

Okay, this spreadsheet uses raw data from the Roadster for the Wh/mile figure. If it happens to match real-world observed performance then it's probably more coincidence than anything else.

Here's the spreadsheet I made (Excel 97 format) which makes some rough assumptions and calculates drag as a function of speed.

Importing the data from the Tesla-based numbers and we get:

Edit Per gudy's request, graph and spreadsheet updated. I also added 300 watts ancillary power drain for on-board systems, which puts my estimates very much in line with the others. I think we're converging on a good model here! Needs more data to remove assumptions... battery performance would be nice.

Looks like I was pretty good with the assumptions at speeds above ~50MPH! Obviously missing is ancillary power losses, which would start to dominate at lower speeds similar to the range with the heat on (assuming maxed-out climate control for 5kW)

What we really need is more low-speed data, or can someone can use the Energy Use screen to get us an estimate of non-motive power use? Looks to be about 300 watts?
=Smidge=

 

[gudy]

Smidge204,

This so cool, I haven't looked a lot, but it seems to be fairly close to what I'm experiencing.
Could you re-run the range with climate control at 1.5kWh and 3kWh.
For anything above 45F/50F, I wouldn't expect the climate control to use more than 1.5kWh on average, and for 30F/40F, I think that it might average at 3kWh. I hardly see it being at 5kWh on average. (I'm setting the climate control between 68F and 71F).

 

[gudy]

Also I think that we need to look at the big picture here.
IF we assume that EVs are going to be successful, then we can't simply think about battery degradation without projecting ourselves to when that would happen.
I don't think that people will experience any significant battery degradation in the first 5 years (maybe 10-15%). The mass market will not buy this car without some "cushion" between their driving needs and the capabilities of the car, so a small battery degradation will not affect them in the first few years.
By the end of this year, there will be more than 10k charging stations in the US. Let's project ourselves in 5-10 years, when battery degradation might become a real limiting factor for us, the early adopters.
1. We'll likely have a new car by then.
2. The charging infrastructure will likely be strong enough so that you won't need to worry about round-trip range, but mostly 1-way range.
3. Getting L2 charging at work will likely be a commodity.

 

[kmp647]

Gudy , can you tell us what the max climate control consumption is when heating and defrosting? like max heat/front w/s defrost w/a/c

like when clearing ice from the w/s

also just in general how well does the heat work? how quick does it warm up?

thank you

 

[gudy]

Gudy , can you tell us what the max climate control consumption is when heating and defrosting? like max heat/front w/s defrost w/a/c

like when clearing ice from the w/s

also just in general how well does the heat work? how quick does it warm up?

thank you

Yesterday, 40F outside, I had climate control on and set at 90F (the max temp you can set). It was using between 1.5kWh and 4.5kWh (the scale goes to 6 though). It's not super strong, and I never felt too hot in the car (I should have at 90F), but I was also not feeling cold in the car with 40F outside, and climate control off
Defrost works really great, and is really fast. I'd guess that they add a/c to the mix when you want to defrost (I believe that a/c tends to dry the air). (by defrost I'm talking about removing the condensation from the windows, just to make sure, as english isn't my native language).

 

[kmp647]

thank you again!

one question I have not seen answered

if you charge at night say to 80% charge

what does the range indicate?

 

[gudy]

thank you again!

one question I have not seen answered

if you charge at night say to 80% charge

what does the range indicate?

I'm currently charging at 100%.
Usually the range is in the 80s at 100%, so I'd expect it to be 80% of that.

 

[csriram45]

Tks gudy for the encouraging words...

Also at 100% charge everyday.. how much $s are we talking daily? Trying to compare how much are we saving in terms of dollars in fuel compared to a new ICE car that gives say 30 miles/gallon.

 

[gudy]

Tks gudy for the encouraging words...

Also at 100% charge everyday.. how much $s are we talking daily? Trying to compare how much are we saving in terms of dollars in fuel compared to a new ICE car that gives say 30 miles/gallon.

it really depends on your electrical rates.

I'm charging at night, and it's costing me about 5 cents / kWh. A full charge is 24kWh, so $1.20 . Assuming the range is accurate, then $1 is giving me 66 miles , at $3.20 the gallon, my car costs the same as a gas powered car delivering 213 mpg (and I'm drive between 65 and 75 on the highway).

 

[csriram45]

Tks gudy for the encouraging words...

Also at 100% charge everyday.. how much $s are we talking daily? Trying to compare how much are we saving in terms of dollars in fuel compared to a new ICE car that gives say 30 miles/gallon.

it really depends on your electrical rates.

I'm charging at night, and it's costing me about 5 cents / kWh. A full charge is 24kWh, so $1.20 . Assuming the range is accurate, then $1 is giving me 66 miles , at $3.20 the gallon, my car costs the same as a gas powered car delivering 213 mpg (and I'm drive between 65 and 75 on the highway).

Nice.... Yeah even I would be charging at night most of the time. I guess if you were to take the charging at peak time then it would be almost as much as a gas powered car only without the tail pipe emissions?

 

[evnow]

A full charge is 24kWh...

Have you been able to confirm that ... I'm guessing not yet ...

 

[ecoobsessive]

Nice.... Yeah even I would be charging at night most of the time. I guess if you were to take the charging at peak time then it would be almost as much as a gas powered car only without the tail pipe emissions?[/quote]

You would have to have very expensive peek rates to make it cost as much as a gas powered car. In San Antonio we only have one rate, close to .10 cents kWh and the LEAF is going to cost much less per mile - much less even than the 50 mpg Prius. I calculated about $3.30 a day for the Prius and close to $2 a day for the LEAF. I think the only time charging the LEAF will cost more is if you have to pay alot at a commercial ESVE station.

On another note, I want to thank all of you who worked on the graphs/spreadsheets. I found them very helpful.
Now I think I may even be able to go with the 80% charge and still make my 60 mile commute - since I don't drive that fast or use much climate control.

 

[LEAFfan]

Now I think I may even be able to go with the 80% charge and still make my 60 mile commute - since I don't drive that fast or use much climate control.

Martha, a 60 mile roundtrip commute will be a piece of cake at the speed limit of 65 or lower and little to no climate control (80% charge).

 

[garygid]

OVER 60% capacity is NOT an event covered by the warranty.
Clearly 61%, 60.1%, etc. are OVER 60%, so NOT covered.

 

[LEAFfan]

OVER 60% capacity is NOT an event covered by the warranty.
Clearly 61%, 60.1%, etc. are OVER 60%, so NOT covered.

Right! 59.9% or lower is covered. :mrgreen:

 

[EVDRIVER]

OVER 60% capacity is NOT an event covered by the warranty.
Clearly 61%, 60.1%, etc. are OVER 60%, so NOT covered.

The pack warranty remains poor on capacity promises. So this clearly means you will not be buying a Leaf now, correct?

 

[garygid]

One never knows.
The darker interior color might sour my wife.

But, the 60% is better than 0%, so ...
maybe the warranty terms will change AGAIN.