Poll : Do you plan to Buy or Lease (take 2) ?

[evnow]

We had a poll about buying/leasing intentions sometime back.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=755&hilit=poll

One of the dealers here requested me to post a new poll to see the mood. Ofcourse, when we get the actual numbers (residual, money factor etc), we will have a better idea. Still, here it goes.

edit : Check the CampbellNissan thread. Apparently you need to provide tax proof to get full 7,500 off for the lease. So, if you are thinking of leasing because you may not pay 7.5K in taxes - and you thought by leasing you can get that benefit - you would be wrong.

edit2 : Apparently the law states "Beneficiary: The party placing the vehicle in service which is typically the purchaser in a sale transaction or the lessor in a lease transaction. Not a lessee in a lease transaction.". SO may be we have been right all along ...

 

[IBELEAF]

Anyway I look at this, leasing to me seems just throwing money away, unless Nissan will surprise us with amazingly low residual value, but I highly doubt.

 

[Boomer23]

I'm so surprised by the high percentage of people buying.

For me, leasing is by far the best choice because:

Given that I want to be an EV early adopter and support the movement toward alternative fuel cars and away from oil:

a) We have no idea whether there is going to be ANY resale market for these cars, and if there is, what will the value be?

b) Almost everyone agrees that range on the next generations of EVs is going to improve significantly and replacement batteries are going to be expensive.

c) We think that a more powerful Level 2 charger is in the offing for the Leaf's future model years. I'd hate to be stuck with the first gen equipment and no real resale market to allow me to move up.

d) The first generations of EVs are going to try to appeal to as many buyers as possible, and therefore will be fairly bland family cars, as the Leaf is. I'd really rather have something sportier and more luxurious, so I'm very interested in seeing the choices that will be out there in three years.

e) I've been screwed on enough tax rebates already due to AMT and other catches that I love the idea that the Federal tax credit is rolled into the lease cost and we get the benefit of it immediately.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

up until recently, i was buying 100 percent. But lately a possible change in my situation might make leasing a better deal. My 1 concern is Leasing it allows me a much smaller financial commitment. Also leaves my options open should we have a large leap in battery technology coupled with lower production costs that my provide an EV With greater range and better price.

But at same time, I don't like to lease. I'd much rather own. The actual financing Will be the determining factor

What i hope will happen Is a leaf will open the floodgates 4 Innovative ev enhancements at a much quicker pace when we as americans prove that we are ready to accept and utilize electric vehicles

 

[Spies]

I already had a leased electric vehicle ripped from my life once. Not going to let it happen again. Definitely buy.

 

[UnlimitedMPG]

I'm so surprised by the high percentage of people buying.

For me, leasing is by far the best choice because:

Given that I want to be an EV early adopter and support the movement toward alternative fuel cars and away from oil:

a) We have no idea whether there is going to be ANY resale market for these cars, and if there is, what will the value be?

b) Almost everyone agrees that range on the next generations of EVs is going to improve significantly and replacement batteries are going to be expensive.

c) We think that a more powerful Level 2 charger is in the offing for the Leaf's future model years. I'd hate to be stuck with the first gen equipment and no real resale market to allow me to move up.

d) The first generations of EVs are going to try to appeal to as many buyers as possible, and therefore will be fairly bland family cars, as the Leaf is. I'd really rather have something sportier and more luxurious, so I'm very interested in seeing the choices that will be out there in three years.

e) I've been screwed on enough tax rebates already due to AMT and other catches that I love the idea that the Federal tax credit is rolled into the lease cost and we get the benefit of it immediately.

If you lease don't you miss out on the tax credit? Something you might want to consider.

 

[planet4ever]

e) I've been screwed on enough tax rebates already due to AMT and other catches that I love the idea that the Federal tax credit is rolled into the lease cost and we get the benefit of it immediately.

If you lease don't you miss out on the tax credit? Something you might want to consider.

We've been through this many times. As Boomer23 implied, you don't see the tax credit in your own income tax forms a year later, but the leasing company does, and they give you credit up front for it, specifically by subtracting $7500 from the Net Capitalized Cost of the Leaf. Your tax status is irrelevant, no worries about AMT, no limits if you pay less than $7500 in FIT.

 

[AndyH]

If you don't mind a point by point alternative view.

I'm so surprised by the high percentage of people buying.

For me, leasing is by far the best choice because:

Given that I want to be an EV early adopter and support the movement toward alternative fuel cars and away from oil:

a) We have no idea whether there is going to be ANY resale market for these cars, and if there is, what will the value be?

I don't care about resale because 1. I don't plan on selling and 2. My crystal ball is broken so guessing the future is not an option.

b) Almost everyone agrees that range on the next generations of EVs is going to improve significantly and replacement batteries are going to be expensive.

Current range is more than sufficient. If necessary (or if the urge to upgrade overcomes common sense!), it's just a battery pack that can be swapped or dropped and rebuilt with newer cells.

c) We think that a more powerful Level 2 charger is in the offing for the Leaf's future model years. I'd hate to be stuck with the first gen equipment and no real resale market to allow me to move up.

Level 1 will satisfy 90% of my use. If I need something faster than 3.3kW, we'll likely be able to swap the charger or use an aftermarket charger on the L3 port or direct to the pack. The folks with legacy vehicles have been doing this for years - and the types of system hacks necessary are more than done in Prius PHEV conversions. Geeks unite - We won't have to sell to upgrade.

d) The first generations of EVs are going to try to appeal to as many buyers as possible, and therefore will be fairly bland family cars, as the Leaf is. I'd really rather have something sportier and more luxurious, so I'm very interested in seeing the choices that will be out there in three years.

Can't argue with this at all.

e) I've been screwed on enough tax rebates already due to AMT and other catches that I love the idea that the Federal tax credit is rolled into the lease cost and we get the benefit of it immediately.

Tax rebate status isn't a factor for me. I plan to drive more than the lease mileage so that also removes the lease as an option.

I'm glad we have plenty of options!

 

[LEAFfan]

Anyway I look at this, leasing to me seems just throwing money away, unless Nissan will surprise us with amazingly low residual value, but I highly doubt.

Actually, it isn't necessarily throwing any money away. The payments are MUCH lower with a lease (I can afford an under $400 payment, but not almost $600). If I could deduct the full $7500, then I would definitely consider buying. I just wonder how many of the people buying realize that the $7500 isn't a rebate, but a tax credit, and they may not be able to receive it all. Also, what isn't used can't be rolled over into the next tax year. I wish it were a rebate! And I LOVE the idea of being able to have lots of choices at the end of the third year.

 

[TimeHorse]

I am quite ambivalent on the Lease/Buy argument, though I lean still toward buy for reason a):

Buy

a) If VA adds EVs to it's HOV easement, it's likely to work like Hybrids did and cut off for vehicles after a certain year (for Hybrids, no cars made and purchased after 2006 are eligible for the easement -- yes, older Hybrids can use it, but not newer, more efficient ones!) I fear they'll do that again here and don't want to end up never being able to get into the HOV easement program if I have to swap out for another EV after 3 years if the cutoff becomes 2012 or something!

b) Yeah, the EV1 -- and the Mini-E! If you don't own it, they (Petrochemical conspiracy MIB) come and take your beloved car away from you at the end of the lease.

c) I may end up driving more than the lease terms anyway.

d) Even if they do offer a buy at the end of the lease, it could end up being beyond my budget.

e) The resale value may be sweet.

Lease

a) I may not be able to get the VA legislature to amend the rules on the HOV easement to support a limited number of EVs and therefore that argument is mute so who cares if I keep my first LEAF.

b) Don't need to secure a loan or worry about down-payment size.

c) Upgrade-ability

d) Range anxiety solved: can't get me to and from work: at least I only have to keep it for 3 years.

e) The buy in at the end of the lease may be reasonable so I can keep my car and the HOV easement can remain.

f) Resale value may be abysmal once Jay Leno and Bill Nye have one.

g) 6.6kW charging in the next car.

h) No worries about battery degradation.

 

[evnow]

Buy :

1. If I get $700 worth L3 for free, does that tip the scale ?
2. Leaf is $350 for leasing and so is Volt, even though much more expensive to buy. So, we are in effect getting a better buy deal than lease ... ?
3. In 3 years we may be ready to trade in our other ICE car (it is 7 years old now). So upgrading Leaf may be difficult ...
4. Will we still get $7.5K off in 3 years ? If not, upgrade may be difficult.

Lease :

1. This will help upgrade easily (no problems of tradein negotiations) - esp from WAF
2. Can get a better car in 3 years, may be Model S or a 2 door sport (I'll be ready for my early midlife crisis) ?
3. Not happy with 2011 Leaf in some ways - Weight, 3.3 kw charger, possibly obsolete L3 ...
4. Now that battery warranty is 8 yrs, this is generally not a concern now, yet with lease comes peace of mind
5. I'll be driving less than 10K miles (unless Jeevan's paradox takes over), so lease works for me

 

[Yodrak]

I've never leased, because I've always kept my cars for a long time and, until the last couple of years, have always put more miles on a car than leases typically allow without extra mileage charges. I prefer to buy a used, low-mileage car that I know I'll like based on the history of the model.

If I want to get into an EV right away, none of the above apply. Everything is speculative. I think I'll like it, can live with the limitations, and it will be a safe, reliable vehicle. But will it? No way to know at present, only hope.

So a lease it is for the first time, then if the promise becomes a reality I'll go back to buying for the next one.

 

[Gavin]

Yeah, I was a sure buy until recently...now i'm 50/50.

Buy

I've never leased...I like to own
I will likely keep the LEAF in the family for many many years...we hand down cars to the kids and keep our cars usually 10-15 years minimum.
But those are really the only two solid reasons

Lease

350 to 400 payment is much easier than 600 or so.
I will only be putting 5 to 6k miles a year on the LEAF
I really want the Fiat 500EV, so I will only be the LEAF driver for 2 or 3 years anyways.


My current possible option is actually bailing on the LEAF and getting a Fiat 500 (they are actually coming to Albuquerque for sale this Winter) and keeping on gas til the Fiat 500 EV comes in 2012...I will likely do that if they bring the 500 with the 2 cylinder engine this year---but I don't think that will happen. But I feel as many of us as possible need to get EVs so the market grows...so I'm torn. If I don't get a LEAF and buy a gas Fiat 500, Fiat might say, hey the gas 500 is doing great, why even make the EV version...and then I would be a sad panda.

So for me, Lease actually makes more sense...but I hate the thought of leasing for some reason...so I might not know 100% till I get to the dealership and start to put my money down.


Gavin

 

[Gavin]

I've never leased, because I've always kept my cars for a long time and, until the last couple of years, have always put more miles on a car than leases typically allow without extra mileage charges. I prefer to buy a used, low-mileage car that I know I'll like based on the history of the model.

If I want to get into an EV right away, none of the above apply. Everything is speculative. I think I'll like it, can live with the limitations, and it will be a safe, reliable vehicle. But will it? No way to know at present, only hope.

So a lease it is for the first time, then if the promise becomes a reality I'll go back to buying for the next one.

+1.

Good post...that just might lean me toward lease...

Gavin

 

[evnow]

I really want the Fiat 500EV, so I will only be the LEAF driver for 2 or 3 years anyways.

Unfortunately given Chrysler's history - I'm not sure about any EV from them. I'll keep my fingers crossed untl they start taking orders. BTW, A123 announced that they will no longer supply to Chrysler ... hope that means Chrysler has chosen a different supplier and is moving ahead instead of a delay.

 

[Yodrak]

Fiat's history would be a better indicator, and not because the car Gavin mentions carries the Fiat badge.

I really want the Fiat 500EV, so I will only be the LEAF driver for 2 or 3 years anyways.

Unfortunately given Chrysler's history ....

 

[evnow]

Fiat's history would be a better indicator, and not because the car Gavin mentions carries the Fiat badge.

But the EV conversion was supposed to be done by Chrysler ...

 

[Gavin]

I think he is talking about the fact that Fiat is now running Chrysler, so Fiats management history and the history of Fiats priorities would trump Chryslers...

But really nobody has much history in making EVs.

Gavin

 

[Yodrak]

Chrysler's history under Daimler management is not necessarily an indication of Chrysler's present and future under Fiat management. Some things may not change, some things definitely will change.

In any event, given the significant change, Fiat's history is likely to be the better indicator.

Fiat's history would be a better indicator, and not because the car Gavin mentions carries the Fiat badge.

But the EV conversion was supposed to be done by Chrysler ...

 

[LEAFer]

Remember, even if you lease, you can BUY the car at the end of the term, but you are in the "driver's seat" (pardon the pun!) as to making that decision in 3 years. The only ... still unknown ... factor is "is it a good deal" to lease ? We won't know until the residual is published.

So ... if you can afford $400/mo now, by the time the lease ends, you can refi the remaining balance and (guessing here) still end up with around $400 on the lower balance.