Plug-in hybrids make recharging structure useless to EVs?

[DeaneG]

I was just thinking - if plug-in hybrids continue to outsell the Leaf by a wide margin, then there is a strong possibility that all the L2 chargers out there will be occupied by a plug-in when I pull up to charge.

I won't be able to safely plan a trip in my Leaf which exceeds its range, which kind of negates the whole purpose of building an L2 network and also tends to prevent "100 mile" EVs like the Leaf from achieving broader appeal.

 

[TomT]

Particularly by PiPs that have to stop every dozen miles or so to recharge if they want to stay purely on electric...

I was just thinking - if plug-in hybrids continue to outsell the Leaf by a wide margin, then there is a strong possibility that all the L2 chargers out there will be occupied by a plug-in when I pull up to charge.

 

[EricBayArea]

I both agree and disagree with you.

Yes, plug-in hybrids will begin occupying L2 charging spaces and it will make it more difficult for EVs like us to recharge to keep going. So right now there's the PiP and Volt (please, no remarks). Soon it'll be the C-MAX and Plug-in Fusion. However, for EVs there are LEAFs, iMiEV, CODAs, Active-E and Teslas. Soon to be Focus EV, Fit EV. So in general, those 2 parking spots your local grocery store has for plug-in use will begin to see some real competition in general.

However, hopefully with the advent of more EVs and Plug-In vehicles more EVSEs will pop up. Also, we may start seeing nominal charging fees as well - which will hopefully weed out plug-in vehicles that would rather save the charging time for their garage.

So only time will tell.

What I hope for is way more L3 DCQCs. I'd rather pay for L3 charging and know that my longest wait is 20 min. then "hope" for an open L2 and know I need to stay for a while.

 

[smkettner]

The possibility already existed when only LEAF was in production.
Best answer is more charging stations and possibly a nominal charge at the busiest of destinations.

 

[adric22]

However, hopefully with the advent of more EVs and Plug-In vehicles more EVSEs will pop up. .

That is the way I see it. Hopefully more PHEV's on the road will help drive demand for more charging stations, which can't be a bad thing. Where I live there are just a handful of them around right now. So there is no way they can make it worse for me than it is. I mean, what is worse? having a charging station that is often occupied by a Volt, or having no charging station at all?

 

[mitch672]

While its nice to get a charge in the PiP, its not needed. I only have charged at home, the parking garage at work (on a nearby 120V outlet), and at my sisters house when visiting, there are very few public EVSEs around here... the one I have used a few times is located at the "99" restaurant in Easton, MA... National Grid put about 30 of the dual headed ChargePoints in at local restaurants off major highways. My biggest problem with that lcoation? 9 times of of 10 it's ICEd by an SUV or other gas only vehicle, even though its labeled "electric vehicle charging". people just don't care. You're far more likely to have the charging spot blocked by a non-EV than to run into a PHEV.. besides the fact that if you unplug us, most of us are fine with it, a charge is a "nice to have" not a "must have" in a PHEV. FYI, at lower speeds (15-25 MPH), the PiP can go 15-16 miles in EV, I have done it.

 

[jcan]

What I know is that people are lazy. When I first got the leaf I went out of my way to find a L2 Charger and plug in... then wait and have a meal or something, it's really an inconvenience. So now I'll pull in and not worry at all about a charge unless I need one. I think if I had the Volt or something similar... why go thru the trouble of finding a spot to charge, hook the car up and now wait a few hours to get an extra 10/20 miles of electric when all I really want to do is go shopping/errand/pickup. Having to charge slows me or anyone else down so I don't think it will be a problem at all. The L2 network will be left for people that really need a charge as it's an inconvenience otherwise. Unless the parking spots are really good, and that I think will be the real problem. Make sure the parking spots are off in the distance and we'll be fine.... My 2 cents

 

[TomT]

No offense intended but If I'm going to go that slow, I'll take my bike...

FYI, at lower speeds (15-25 MPH), the PiP can go 15-16 miles in EV, I have done it.

 

[mitch672]

No offense intended but If I'm going to go that slow, I'll take my bike...

FYI, at lower speeds (15-25 MPH), the PiP can go 15-16 miles in EV, I have done it.

It's not by choice, it's called "traffic"
I93 (Southeast Expresswsy) into Boston, my morning commute.
40-55 minutes to go 15 miles. Please don't start suggesting subways and trains, been their done that.

Also when driving local roads 9-10 miles, speed limit is 30MPH on many of them.

BTW, you would be arrested driving your bike on the highway.

 

[dhanson865]

While its nice to get a charge in the PiP, its not needed. I only have charged at home, the parking garage at work (on a nearby 120V outlet), and at my sisters house when visiting, there are very few public EVSEs around here... the one I have used a few times is located at the "99" restaurant in Easton, MA... National Grid put about 30 of the dual headed ChargePoints in at local restaurants off major highways. My biggest problem with that lcoation? 9 times of of 10 it's ICEd by an SUV or other gas only vehicle, even though its labeled "electric vehicle charging". people just don't care. You're far more likely to have the charging spot blocked by a non-EV than to run into a PHEV.. besides the fact that if you unplug us, most of us are fine with it, a charge is a "nice to have" not a "must have" in a PHEV. FYI, at lower speeds (15-25 MPH), the PiP can go 15-16 miles in EV, I have done it.

That's a good point, unless I'm out of gas I won't mind someone unplugging my Prius to charge their Leaf, heck if I'm standing there and they pull up I'd offer them the charger just to be polite.

Same goes if I have the Leaf and I'm conveinence charging (charging at L1 when I have a partial charge already), if another vehicle needs the charger more I'd step out of the way.

You are going to have rude people out there but it's going to be the SUV/Pickup drivers more so than the Prius/Leaf drivers if my observations are valid.\

I see a Red Leaf charging in front of my work (L1) but 3 or 4 days a week they don't bother to plug it up, it is there 5 days a week but they only charge it if the weather is nice and they've driven enough to need more charge. There are 4 110 outlets between the two spaces (at the curb right in front of the entrence to the building, really primo spots). Most days the other spot is empty (reserved for EV only), I've seen the spare spot ICED once in the last two months and only for half a day. The Leaf always gets that same spot and has never been ICED.

I'm sure it'd be worse in a higher traffice area but this is a large office complex with a parking lot big enough to lose a car in and no one is ICEing a primo up front spot. I don't know if the owners tow or if we just have nicer drivers in this town.

 

[SteveInSeattle]

There will never be enough chargers to plan a trip reliably, there will always be risk of defective or unavailable charging stations. EV's are great commuter cars and terrible road trip cars.

 

[SanDust]

I was just thinking - if plug-in hybrids continue to outsell the Leaf by a wide margin, then there is a strong possibility that all the L2 chargers out there will be occupied by a plug-in when I pull up to charge.

How exactly would it help if you couldn't use the charger because it was occupied by a Leaf or an i-Miev rather than a Volt or a PIP? Not getting the point.

As a practical matter the more plug-ins there are the more likely you'll be to find a charger.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Crowded charge sites. Capitalism arrives. Problem solved.

 

[DeaneG]

...How exactly would it help if you couldn't use the charger because it was occupied by a Leaf or an i-Miev rather than a Volt or a PIP? Not getting the point..

Just that there will be a lot more Volts and PiPs potentially clogging the charge stations than pure EVs... but the plug-ins don't actually have to use them, and they will block someone who does have a real need.

 

[SanDust]

Just that there will be a lot more Volts and PiPs potentially clogging the charge stations than pure EVs... but the plug-ins don't actually have to use them, and they will block someone who does have a real need.

Hard to reach this conclusion. I've used public chargers but never have had an actual need to do so, if by need you mean that without using it I couldn't go where I needed to. If Balboa Park is 25 miles from my house I don't "need" to charge there if I go in a Leaf. I would if I went in a Volt. So which car would have a greater "need"? Without interviewing everyone who plugs in it's impossible to ascertain "need".

The other point is that you're assuming there will be a fixed number of charging stations. My point is that the more cars that can plug in the more chargers we'll see. I like my chances better if there are 10X more plugins and 10x more chargers. With a very small number of chargers and plugins it's much more likely that a given charger won't be available when you need it.

 

[DANandNAN]

...How exactly would it help if you couldn't use the charger because it was occupied by a Leaf or an i-Miev rather than a Volt or a PIP? Not getting the point..

Just that there will be a lot more Volts and PiPs potentially clogging the charge stations than pure EVs... but the plug-ins don't actually have to use them, and they will block someone who does have a real need.

First, I don't get calling a Leaf a pure EV while a Volt isn't. The Volt is just as "pure" as the Leaf is, the Volt just has a shorter range but has a much better back up plan. The Volt is EV exclusively for the first 40 miles and then switches to it's back-up plan, the on-board generator. Until you deplete the battery there's not much you can do to get the generator to start. OTOH, the PiP, with a 6-15 mile range, which turns on the engine if you drive too fast, accelerate too hard, or attempt to "climb" the ramp of a parking garage, probably should be reclassified as a hybrid.

Strangely (?) enough at GMV we have a poll going on about this. I think flmark's post is very OT

You are really asking about PRIORITY, not the right to use the charging station, because your options indicate that the poll is really about somebody else stepping in front of you. As such, it really is a matter of waiting for someone else who might have more NEED for the product than you- and that you can simply wait long enough for the product to become available.

I say it this way, because you could make a similar argument that a Hummer would have preference over a Prius at gas pump, because the Hummer needs the product more urgently. We could see who uses gas faster or who has an emptier tank. Or how about asking who has gone the longest without eating to a bunch of people standing in line at a deli counter. Yes, you could keep getting further and further away from this, more or less RIDICULOUS, question.

If you can use a product, free or not, typically it is FIRST COME FIRST SERVE as to who gets to use the product WHEN they desire. And just because a long wait is involved does make the matter any more RIDICULOUS. When I walk up to a restaurant with lots of people already waiting outside, I don't get to say 'I'm starving' and march to the hostess, demanding to be seated immediately.

Edit: I had to come back and add this as I kept thinking about the sense of entitlement that would have somebody assume you have less merit to something than they do- AND, oh by the way, THEY MADE THE CHOICE to buy a vehicle that could indeed leave them stranded-
After I exclaim to that crowd of people waiting for the last 45 minutes to be seated that I am starving, I say,
You see, I am starving because I decided to do this cold turkey diet where I told myself just don't carry any food with you. I figured if I didn't have any food with me, I'd just have to put up with being hungry and somehow make it through. It turns out that I made a mistake and now I just can't wait for all of you to eat before I do.

Remember this analogy if the owner of a BEV ever wants you to take a back seat to his desires!

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?14838-Should-Volts-be-allowed-to-use-public-charging-stations&p=162460#post162460" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't speak for any other Volt owners, but if a Leaf asked to interrupt my charge due to an emergency, I wouldn't be a jerk. But, otherwise I'd expect them to wait, just as I'd wait if I had to - I hate burning gas too.

 

[AndyH]

...How exactly would it help if you couldn't use the charger because it was occupied by a Leaf or an i-Miev rather than a Volt or a PIP? Not getting the point..

Just that there will be a lot more Volts and PiPs potentially clogging the charge stations than pure EVs... but the plug-ins don't actually have to use them, and they will block someone who does have a real need.

First, I don't get calling a Leaf a pure EV while a Volt isn't. The Volt is just as "pure" as the Leaf is, the Volt just has a shorter range but has a much better back up plan. The Volt is EV exclusively for the first 40 miles and then switches to it's back-up plan, the on-board generator. Until you deplete the battery there's not much you can do to get the generator to start. OTOH, the PiP, with a 6-15 mile range, which turns on the engine if you drive too fast, accelerate too hard, or attempt to "climb" the ramp of a parking garage, probably should be reclassified as a hybrid.

No. One can paint it a different color and cover it in 'EV' stickers, but at the end of the day the Volt is a PLUG-IN-HYBRID car. And that is PRECISELY why folks in this thread are making a distinction. It's not to upset you or any other sore-tail kittens - it's to have a factual discussion about different categories of vehicles.

I hope that's not a problem since we're all in complete and (hopefully) conscious control of our own rodent/trackball/pointing device... :roll:

At this point, I can't imaging that more EVSEs in the wild would do anything but help all the plug-ins.

In the 'be careful what you ask for' category, though: I lobbied for a L1/L2 EVSE in the parking lot at the University of Texas - San Antonio campus and finally they were installed - about six L2 units - in a paid parking garage - where I cannot take my electric motorcycle. Someday, maybe they'll plant one or two outside the garage. Sigh... :lol:

 

[AndyH]

...

Strangely (?) enough at GMV we have a poll going on about this. I think flmark's post is very OT

You are really asking about PRIORITY, not the right to use the charging station, because your options indicate that the poll is really about somebody else stepping in front of you. As such, it really is a matter of waiting for someone else who might have more NEED for the product than you- and that you can simply wait long enough for the product to become available.

I say it this way, because you could make a similar argument that a Hummer would have preference over a Prius at gas pump, because the Hummer needs the product more urgently. We could see who uses gas faster or who has an emptier tank. Or how about asking who has gone the longest without eating to a bunch of people standing in line at a deli counter. Yes, you could keep getting further and further away from this, more or less RIDICULOUS, question.

If you can use a product, free or not, typically it is FIRST COME FIRST SERVE as to who gets to use the product WHEN they desire. And just because a long wait is involved does make the matter any more RIDICULOUS. When I walk up to a restaurant with lots of people already waiting outside, I don't get to say 'I'm starving' and march to the hostess, demanding to be seated immediately.

Edit: I had to come back and add this as I kept thinking about the sense of entitlement that would have somebody assume you have less merit to something than they do- AND, oh by the way, THEY MADE THE CHOICE to buy a vehicle that could indeed leave them stranded-
After I exclaim to that crowd of people waiting for the last 45 minutes to be seated that I am starving, I say,
You see, I am starving because I decided to do this cold turkey diet where I told myself just don't carry any food with you. I figured if I didn't have any food with me, I'd just have to put up with being hungry and somehow make it through. It turns out that I made a mistake and now I just can't wait for all of you to eat before I do.

Remember this analogy if the owner of a BEV ever wants you to take a back seat to his desires![/url]

I don't speak for any other Volt owners, but if a Leaf asked to interrupt my charge due to an emergency, I wouldn't be a jerk. But, otherwise I'd expect them to wait, just as I'd wait if I had to - I hate burning gas too.

Overall the above position seems to be quite arrogant and very unlike the attitude of the EV community. EVers tend to help each other and work together.

In the aviation world, even with a full traffic pattern, the airplane with minimum fuel gets priority to the runway and everyone else gets out of the way until the problem is fixed. Similar in the military aviation world even if fuel level hasn't dropped to emergency status - low fuel or damage brings priority status. Additionally, in the air and on the water there is a hierarchy of vessels with various levels of right of way - powered planes give way to sailplanes or balloons in the air and smaller vessels move away from larger less maneuverable vessels or sailing vessels. There's a hierarchy of fuel and of maneuverability and of need.

Do we have to expect the area around EVSEs to become a testosterone-laced roller derby? :?

 

[SanDust]

There's a hierarchy of fuel and of maneuverability and of need.

You haven't provided any reasons why a Leaf should have special charging rights, you've only pointed out that other people in other circumstances get special rights. You seem to want to argue by analogy but there aren't any similarities between your examples and public charging, unless you believe that every Leaf is always short on fuel and ready to crash or that every Leaf on the road is less maneuverable than a Volt.

 

[DANandNAN]

Overall the above position seems to be quite arrogant and very unlike the attitude of the EV community. EVers tend to help each other and work together.

In the aviation world, even with a full traffic pattern, the airplane with minimum fuel gets priority to the runway and everyone else gets out of the way until the problem is fixed. Similar in the military aviation world even if fuel level hasn't dropped to emergency status - low fuel or damage brings priority status. Additionally, in the air and on the water there is a hierarchy of vessels with various levels of right of way - powered planes give way to sailplanes or balloons in the air and smaller vessels move away from larger less maneuverable vessels or sailing vessels. There's a hierarchy of fuel and of maneuverability and of need.

Do we have to expect the area around EVSEs to become a testosterone-laced roller derby? :?

Wait, you're comparing being 2,000 feet in the air, having to declare an emergency, answer questions and risk having your ticket pulled to being parked in a parking lot waiting for someone to finish charging? :lol: If you've ever been the pilot of an aircraft that was low on fuel you probably wouldn't make such a poor comparison. The weakest do get priority, and that includes those low on fuel, but only those with a death wish allow themselves into that situation more than once.

Priority is also given to those that have the least ability to maneuver - like blimps - who's pilots fly an aircraft that is at the mercy of the situation.

Here's another aviation rule, have enough fuel to fly to your planned destination plus enough to fly to your alternate. That's a great rule for range limited BEV because it's not fun to arrive and the charger is malfunctioning.

I don't know anything about the rule that says fly to your destination with no extra fuel and declare an emergency because of your poor planning.

You're not going to crash if you're waiting for someone else to charge. Like I said, if you truly had an emergency I'd let you in front, but a feeling of entitlement because your car is so range limited and someone else is using "your" back-up plan is silly.