palmermd
Well-known member
Interesting read. I think the post has more to do with Tesla coporate culture than model s but either way thanks for sharing it.
RegGuheert said:I expect that the reduction in battery resistance that has been achieved in the Model 3 should pay off in much longer battery life.
That's what I am referring to. My understanding is that they chose the 2170 size based on a detailed study which traded off (mainly) capacity and thermal performance. I'm guessing they have tried to minimize the temperature rise from the case to the hottest internal point.lorenfb said:Yes, the 2170 battery is more efficient than the 18650, but haven't seen any comparative numbers.
RegGuheert said:I'm impressed that Tesla is willing to replace it after under warranty!
Valdemar said:RegGuheert said:I'm impressed that Tesla is willing to replace it after under warranty!
A PR stunt? 20k additional loss on their balance sheet is nothing. Is there any data how other high-mileage Teslas batteries are doing?
RegGuheert said:That's what I am referring to. My understanding is that they chose the 2170 size based on a detailed study which traded off (mainly) capacity and thermal performance. I'm guessing they have tried to minimize the temperature rise from the case to the hottest internal point.lorenfb said:Yes, the 2170 battery is more efficient than the 18650, but haven't seen any comparative numbers.
I guess time will tell.
In order to further improve cell efficiency and lower costs Tesla has built a large battery factory in Sparks, NV near Reno called Gigafactory 1 that is now producing a new cell design called the 2170 because it is 21 mm in diameter and 70 mm high to be used initially in Tesla Powerwall home storage products and Powerpack utility storage products as well as the new Model 3 sedan, designed to be smaller and less expensive than the Model S. The 2170 design is 46% larger in volume than the 18650 and 10-15 % more energy efficient than the 18650 cells, according to J. B. Straubel, CTO of Tesla.
The Model 3 uses a different battery, handily this isn’t standard but is 21mm x 70mm so larger and they are about 10-15% more efficient and 46% bigger. This means that for the same volume, if the Model X and S were to switch to the 2170 battery, they but delivers double the current at 6A vs 3A in the 18650.
Perhaps they've been watching too many Tesla vs. whatever drag race videos - is testosterone contagious? Meanwhile, via IEVS:cwerdna said:Two women Tesla drivers try to ram each other
The black Tesla nearly runs over the other woman, who then gets in her blue Tesla and rams the black one with a crunch.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=Cn4Nc_1535331831
They're speaking Mandarin but my Mandarin's poor and the audio isn't great. The ramming is at the end.
https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-seats-evolution/Watch Tesla Model S Seats Evolve Over Time
EVDRIVER said:Valdemar said:RegGuheert said:I'm impressed that Tesla is willing to replace it after under warranty!
A PR stunt? 20k additional loss on their balance sheet is nothing. Is there any data how other high-mileage Teslas batteries are doing?
Doubtful. They have done some work on my S that clearly should not have been under warranty. They are generally pretty good about this type of thing depending on the situation.
I think the S60 battery/drive unit warranty was eight years and 100k (or 120k) miles originally, but I believe that the mileage limit was changed to unlimited miles, as was already the case for all larger batteries. If so, that five year old battery was still under warranty.RegGuheert said:60-kWh Tesla Model S battery in Denver dies after five years and 142,000 miles. I'm impressed that Tesla is willing to replace it after under warranty!...
I believe https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty-ms-mx does accurately reflect the older Model S once Elon announced the 8 year/"infinite mile" warranty on the 85 kWh car packs and DUs:dgpcolorado said:I think the S60 battery/drive unit warranty was eight years and 100k (or 120k) miles originally, but I believe that the mileage limit was changed to unlimited miles, as was already the case for all larger batteries. If so, that five year old battery was still under warranty.RegGuheert said:60-kWh Tesla Model S battery in Denver dies after five years and 142,000 miles. I'm impressed that Tesla is willing to replace it after under warranty!...
There have been some S85 batteries replaced under warranty. The highest mileage one I've heard of is 197k miles.
Numerous folks on TMC have had their entire packs replaced for various reasons, not necessarily w/high miles.The Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement of any malfunctioning or defective Model S or X lithium-ion battery for a period of 8 years or unlimited miles/km, with the exception of the original 60 kWh battery (manufactured before 2015) that is covered for a period of 8 years or 125,000 miles (200,000 km), whichever comes first.
If the new 2170s do not hold up *significantly* better than the 18650s Tesla will begin replacing a lot of very large batteries beginning about two years after the Tesla Semis begin shipping.dgpcolorado said:Whether the 2170 cells will hold up better than the older cells remains to be seen — internal features have changed, in addition to the cell size.
Good point. Semis will rack up mileage and cycles quickly! It may be that battery costs will be low enough that replacements can be factored into the sales price or considered part of the operating cost.RegGuheert said:If the new 2170s do not hold up *significantly* better than the 18650s Tesla will begin replacing a lot of very large batteries beginning about two years after the Tesla Semis begin shipping.
There are multiple Li-ion battery technologies out there which live through tens of thousands of cycles with very little degradation, some with very high specific energy. Also, Tesla is making important improvements in cycle life on their own, partly through the efforts of Dr. Jeff Dahn.dgpcolorado said:I would guess that periodic battery replacements (and recycling) would be factored into the operating cost equation.
I never paid much attention to the battery warranty mileage because I figured I would time out at eight years (as happens for all the large battery cars). It would be fairly uncommon that an S60 that would exceed 125k miles in eight years; 15,625 miles per year is a lot for cars mostly used for local driving. My ~19k miles per year is likely on the high side for S60s.cwerdna said:I believe https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty-ms-mx does accurately reflect the older Model S once Elon announced the 8 year/"infinite mile" warranty on the 85 kWh car packs and DUs:
The Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement of any malfunctioning or defective Model S or X lithium-ion battery for a period of 8 years or unlimited miles/km, with the exception of the original 60 kWh battery (manufactured before 2015) that is covered for a period of 8 years or 125,000 miles (200,000 km), whichever comes first.
Yes, although they remain a small proportion of the fleet. As you well know, people with a problem are more inclined to report it than those who don't have issues. With the Model 3 out in large numbers — VINs over 106k have already been assigned for delivery only one year after launch — such reports should increase.Numerous folks on TMC have had their entire packs replaced for various reasons, not necessarily w/high miles.
I'm guessing the battery replacement year is wrong.Tonyt said:I recently purchased a 102k mile 2013. Battery was replaced around January 2013.
Google and read their Annual report filed with the SEC, they have many, many pages of risks associated with investing and after reading it completely I am convinced there is way too much that can go wrong. The two biggest risks are inability to raise enough money (especially if they are forced to refund the $5,000 deposits if they are ruled a violation of California State law) and the biggest risk is the most likely risk factor, that a major company that has a distribution and production network develops a competing car. What chance do they have if AUDI or BMW, or Mercedes makes something competitive top the Model S? And, think about it, are these companies likely to stand by and let Tesla just have this market to themselves? The auto industry is far too competative. The other companies can absorb far more development costs and early losses since the have ICE cars to offset those costs.
Early investors thought they had some super proprietary patented technology and invested on that basis.. but how valuable can their patents be when Nissan can produce the Leaf? What could they possibly have that is really that beneficial? The Leaf proves the flaw in Tesla's business plan. All Nissan needs to do is throw the Leaf technology and some extra batteries into a G37 Coupe body, or something similar, offer it for 55K and they have ten times more dealers from day one. Plus when Nissan offers an eight year warranty you are pretty sure they will be there in 2020.
As you can see I have pretty strong feelings on this-- it just makes no sense to me that people are buying their stock at this stage.
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