Official Tesla Model S thread

[Ogi]

Nissan is surveying Tesla owners...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1090478_nissan-surveys-tesla-owners-for-intelligence-on-electric-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Same old churn marketing mentality from Nissan. They would be smarter to actually take the feedback from Leaf owners seriously - most of it is utterly ignored. Instead they are running around chasing someone else's customers.

We are the ones that use your car every day and can tell you what is missing. We are the ones that will defect to Tesla and many already have. In Europe many will defect to the electric Golf as well. Why not take the customer feedback seriously and up your game from making a sideshow car into having a serious well considered vehicle brand.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Nissan is surveying Tesla owners...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1090478_nissan-surveys-tesla-owners-for-intelligence-on-electric-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For Nissan to really understand use patterns, they need to do a lot more than just look at a "typical week". they'd be best to look at an "atypical week", or even better, several years of use patterns. inconvenience is what stands out, even if it's infrequent. Tracking Leaf use is self fulfilling, it's too tempting to look at the total miles driven and so forth as proof of adequacy, but to really get the real picture they need to look at what was omitted, the places the Leaf was not taken by the owner because of limitations. To understand where the gaps are, they'd need to track when the Leaf was left at home and another car was taken and they'd need to track user stress and fast charging reliability.

For our family, we've "only" had the car towed once and "only" been stuck at a charging station once over these years of ownership. it doesn't really sound that bad and yet those two experiences left a lasting impression. sitting for 3 hours with two kids in diapers in a fogged up car in a cold, dark parking garage till the middle of the night forever changed our impression of the car and what we considered reasonable. our use patterns changed after that, my wife simply was not willing to get in that kind of a position again. The Leaf introduced us to many of the benefits of EV ownership but also to the biggest limitation. As more reports came in of fast chargers malfunctioning and people even having to spend the night in their car while it charged on the adjacent L2 charging station, we drove began only driving the Leaf within it's single charge range. When we got our Tesla S, it was sweet release to never have to contend with messed up public chargers or lines again. We went from driving 12K Leaf miles a year to driving 3-4K. a 150-200 mile range Leaf would dramatically improve user experience, not day to day user experience, but overall, long term experience. daily commute is the lowest common denominator, people buy cars more for their greatest common denominator, the infrequent long distance travel needs. The Leaf can certainly work as a decent second car, but sometimes both cars in a household need to go long distances on the same day. For the mass market to accept the Leaf, it need to be able to be used more than "most of the time".

The Tesla S, so far, has met all of our needs with respect to range all the time and that is the metric by which people tend to choose their next vehicle.

 

[DeaneG]

re: Nissan polling Model S owners - Since it seems that the majority of EV owners are generally older, more affluent and well-educated, using the Nissan brand (youthful blue collar, moderate income, moderate education) to sell a barely-capable Leaf was one bad idea on top of another. At best you get the environmentalist end of the Prius market, a niche.

An Infiniti branded car would have been a better fit for those older, wealthier and perhaps more aspirationally-oriented buyers.

Hard to say why every EV manufacturer except Tesla talks themselves into believing that selling a 70-mile range for an "average" driving day is a good idea. It's old knowledge that people buy cars to fulfill their 99 percentile needs, not their average needs.

If you had an electric razor that shaved your face properly 95% of the time, but was useless 1.5 times per month, even though on average it was fine, you'd certainly throw it out and get a more capable razor.

 

[GlennD]

So far it 2 1/2 years of Leaf ownership I have found the range adequate. I Initially figured I would rent a car for longer trips. So far I have not needed to and now that I am retired the range is fine.

 

[TomT]

Initially the range was adequate for 90% of my trips. Now, with the level of battery degradation, that has dropped to about 80%... It also now often requires charging at work and/or to 100%...
We use our ICE for trips that are beyond the Leaf's convenience range.

So far it 2 1/2 years of Leaf ownership I have found the range adequate. I Initially figured I would rent a car for longer trips. So far I have not needed to and now that I am retired the range is fine.

 

[abasile]

The Tesla S, so far, has met all of our needs with respect to range all the time and that is the metric by which people tend to choose their next vehicle.

Back in 2010 when many of us paid the $99 reservation fee for our LEAFs, I think we generally took it for granted that no EV could possibly meet all of our range needs all the time. The fact that we were about to be able to purchase a mass-market EV with enough range for the majority of our driving seemed like a huge step forward (and it was). Owning both a LEAF and a Prius seemed ideal, at least to me.

Tesla changed the rules of the game much more quickly than I had anticipated. The idea that one can own a battery-only car and use it for all driving, even long-distance trips, really is quite radical. Sure, Superchargers aren't everywhere, yet. Still, there is sufficient infrastructure, even today, for a great many people to buy Teslas and go ICE-less.

Their mistakes notwithstanding, Nissan is to be commended for their ongoing commitment to EVs. At least they had the market mostly to themselves for 1.5 years before Tesla changed everything. Even now, I suspect that to a significant extent LEAF sales are riding the coattails of the Model S.

 

[Ogi]

Isn't the point of having the market alone to yourself for 1.5 years that you get to "change everything" yourself, instead of blowing your lead and then interviewing the customers of the newcomer that bypassed, so that you can "learn"? Bizarre...

This whole thing is the auto industry establishment in a nutshell - simply clueless. They have had the football on the one yard line for about 20 years and still managed to blow it.

No govt should be bailing or subsidising these guys out. They are dinosaurs and need to die, instead of being kept alive to block the next generation.

 

[Zythryn]

I suspect Nissan is more interested in how people use the greater range if they have it available.
If people aren't using more than 70 miles, then the draw towards a 200 mile pack is temporary.
If people are actually using well over 100 miles, or 150, then this is something that needs to be known before Leaf 2.0 comes out.

It is good information to have and I am glad Nissan is researching it.

 

[Ogi]

If people aren't using more than 70 miles, then the draw towards a 200 mile pack is temporary.

This logic would for example lead to car makers dropping four seat cars, four door cars, and 4 wheel drive, ostensibly because demand would be "temporary".

On the bright side maybe Nissan will get rid of the useless solar panel and prove better wiper coverage, nonalien external styking and an Navigation/AV system with an interface from this side of the 1980s.

 

[Zythryn]

If people aren't using more than 70 miles, then the draw towards a 200 mile pack is temporary.

This logic would for example lead to car makers dropping four seat cars, four door cars, and 4 wheel drive, ostensibly because demand would be "temporary".

On the bright side maybe Nissan will get rid of the useless solar panel and prove better wiper coverage, nonalien external styking and an Navigation/AV system with an interface from this side of the 1980s.

Not sure if they are applicable.
The battery pack is the most expensive element of the car.
Sure, everyone is going to want a buffer zone.
But if Nissan can figure out where the cost vs range sweet spot is, it will be a benefit to them.

Competition is good! Nothing wrong with seeing if you can learn anything from your competition.

 

[Ogi]

Yes, but I will go back to my point. Nissan has had the market to themselves and wasted that "beta" time.

Instead of paying marketing companies for anecdoctal surveys from Tesla owners, they should have put out variants of the Leaf with different battery pack sizes and they would have hard proprietary empirical data on how those bigger batteries were being used - frequency, distance, geolocations - everything. Free data. Hard numbers. Own customers.

 

[Zythryn]

Yes, but I will go back to my point. Nissan has had the market to themselves and wasted that "beta" time.

Instead of paying marketing companies for anecdoctal surveys from Tesla owners, they should have put out variants of the Leaf with different battery pack sizes and they would have hard proprietary empirical data on how those bigger batteries were being used - frequency, distance, geolocations - everything. Free data. Hard numbers. Own customers.

I agree completely.

However, I also give Nissan credit for what they have done.
The Leaf has sold more BEVs than anyone worldwide.
They dedicated much more to electrification than any of the other major players.

Yes, they could have done better. But since we live in this universe and not some parallel universe where the did do things differently, I still feel this is a good move for them.

 

[WetEV]

If people aren't using more than 70 miles,

But the Leaf really doesn't have a "no worries" 70 mile range. More like maybe 35 miles. Probably less, in very cold places. Good enough for a sizable fraction of people, and I like mine.

How far could a Leaf with a 69% battery travel on a cold wet windy day at 60 mph, using climate control to keep the car comfortable, without going below Very Low Battery warning? Not 70 miles. How about in snow, at -30 (F or C, take you pick) at 30 mph? Not 70 miles.

An EPA rated range of 150 miles would mean a "no worries" range closer to 70 miles, which would be useful for a lot larger fraction of people. At least, in my never humble opinion.

 

[qwk]

Yes, but I will go back to my point. Nissan has had the market to themselves and wasted that "beta" time.

Instead of paying marketing companies for anecdoctal surveys from Tesla owners, they should have put out variants of the Leaf with different battery pack sizes and they would have hard proprietary empirical data on how those bigger batteries were being used - frequency, distance, geolocations - everything. Free data. Hard numbers. Own customers.

This. Taking a survey, and then not paying attention to it is pathetic. The majority of Model S sales are 85kwh cars, why would anyone need to take a survey. The writing is on the wall. It's simple, people want range.

 

[evnow]

... they should have put out variants of the Leaf with different battery pack sizes and they would have hard proprietary empirical data on how those bigger batteries were being used - frequency, distance, geolocations - everything. Free data. Hard numbers. Own customers.

They would have - if it was possible.

People simply don't understand - Leaf doesn't have the space for any more battery (unless they eat up trunk space).

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The majority of Model S sales are 85kwh cars, why would anyone need to take a survey. The writing is on the wall. It's simple, people want range.

Thank you.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many businesses look to "data" to glean insights that should be obvious to anyone with a little common sense.

 

[qwk]

The majority of Model S sales are 85kwh cars, why would anyone need to take a survey. The writing is on the wall. It's simple, people want range.

Thank you.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many businesses look to "data" to glean insights that should be obvious to anyone with a little common sense.

Bean counters have absolutely no common sense. That is why so many big companies eventually fail.

I'm sure Tesla will someday face the same fate(after Musk is gone), but for now, seems to be the best at adapting to their surroundings very fast.

The saddest part is, somebody up the chain at Nissan will most likely read this post, and thread, but fail to act on the obvious.

 

[Ogi]

... they should have put out variants of the Leaf with different battery pack sizes and they would have hard proprietary empirical data on how those bigger batteries were being used - frequency, distance, geolocations - everything. Free data. Hard numbers. Own customers.

They would have - if it was possible.

People simply don't understand - Leaf doesn't have the space for any more battery (unless they eat up trunk space).

Anyone who has owned the Leaf will tell you that if that's the case, then this was the wrong platform to build on.

Sorry, but there is no excuse for blowing a lead like this basically due to complete lack of vision and ambition. I dont understand why they even bothered if the were not going to show any guts along the way. It's not Tesla customers that Nissan should be interviewing - it's Tesla management.

 

[evnow]

Anyone who has owned the Leaf will tell you that if that's the case, then this was the wrong platform to build on.

I've owned Leaf(s) - and I don't say that

Sorry, but there is no excuse for blowing a lead like this basically due to complete lack of vision and ambition. I dont understand why they even bothered if the were not going to show any guts along the way. It's not Tesla customers that Nissan should be interviewing - it's Tesla management.

Last time I checked Tesla can't build a Leaf & Nissan can't build Model S. Looks like they are equal. What happens in 3 years is a different question. Counting out Nissan because Tesla gets all the press (mostly because of various TSLA plays) is being short-sighted.

 

[Nubo]

The majority of Model S sales are 85kwh cars, why would anyone need to take a survey. The writing is on the wall. It's simple, people want range.

Thank you.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many businesses look to "data" to glean insights that should be obvious to anyone with a little common sense.

Why use human intelligence when you can spend millions of dollars mining "Big Data"?