Official Tesla Model S thread

[tbleakne]

Thanks, Ingineer, for the great battery pictures. It is clear Tesla takes thermal management very seriously.

Now that 60 kWh model is being delivered, is there any information on its curb weight as compared to the 85 kWh model? The web site still just gives one value of 4647 lbs, presumably for the 85 kWh model.

I believe I saw an opinion some months ago that the weight of the 60 kWh model was about the same as the 85 kWh model because it used lower energy-density cells, not fewer cells of the same density. Has this been confirmed?

Now that the 65 kWh model is shipping, I would think they would have to publish an accurate weight.

 

[GRA]

Thanks, Ingineer, for the great battery pictures. It is clear Tesla takes thermal management very seriously.

Now that 60 kWh model is being delivered, is there any information on its curb weight as compared to the 85 kWh model? The web site still just gives one value of 4647 lbs, presumably for the 85 kWh model.

I believe I saw an opinion some months ago that the weight of the 60 kWh model was about the same as the 85 kWh model because it used lower energy-density cells, not fewer cells of the same density. Has this been confirmed?

Now that the 65 kWh model is shipping, I would think they would have to publish an accurate weight.

IIRR, it was Tesla themselves who said that the weight of the 60 and 85kWh packs would be the same; they used Panasonic's new higher-density cells in the 85kWh pack. Both are supposed to be in the 1,200-1,300 lb. range.

 

[TonyWilliams]

That's my understanding; 2200mah Panasonic 18650 in the Rav4 and 40kWh and 60kWh Model S, and 3100mah in the 85kWh Model S.

 

[Train]

Cup o' Joe to the winner.

Where are you at, Train?

The Train is everywhere. :mrgreen:

 

[NotTarts]

Thanks, Ingineer, for the great battery pictures. It is clear Tesla takes thermal management very seriously.

Now that 60 kWh model is being delivered, is there any information on its curb weight as compared to the 85 kWh model? The web site still just gives one value of 4647 lbs, presumably for the 85 kWh model.

I believe I saw an opinion some months ago that the weight of the 60 kWh model was about the same as the 85 kWh model because it used lower energy-density cells, not fewer cells of the same density. Has this been confirmed?

Now that the 65 kWh model is shipping, I would think they would have to publish an accurate weight.

IIRR, it was Tesla themselves who said that the weight of the 60 and 85kWh packs would be the same; they used Panasonic's new higher-density cells in the 85kWh pack. Both are supposed to be in the 1,200-1,300 lb. range.

Tesla are now saying that they use the same cells, but the 60kWh pack just uses less of them . There's a weight difference of about 200lbs.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12879-60-kwh-vs-85-khw?p=261350&viewfull=1#post261350

Received email confirmation of 60 kWh curb weight and battery cell type today from Tesla:

"The curb weight of the 60kWh Model S is listed at 4464lb. As for the battery cells, the 60kWh uses the same cell type as the 85kWh battery, but less of them."

Recapping the 85 kWh vs the 60 kWh car:
-Curb weight: 4647 lbs 85 kWh, 4464 lbs 60 kWh
-EPA miles per charge: 265 miles 85 kWh, 208 miles 60 kWh
-EPA MPG electric equivalent: 89 MPGe 85 kWh, 95 MPGe 60 kWh
-Battery cells: Both cars use Panasonic 3.1 ah 18650 Li-Ion cells, the 60 kWh cars use fewer.

 

[abasile]

Tesla are now saying that they use the same cells, but the 60kWh pack just uses less of them . There's a weight difference of about 200lbs.

Interesting. So, if one were to purchase an 'S' with the 60 kWh pack, it seems that in theory it could later be upgraded to 85 kWh. I wonder if Tesla will at some point support this.

 

[TomT]

I suspect that the logistics and cost would make it impracticable...

Tesla are now saying that they use the same cells, but the 60kWh pack just uses less of them . There's a weight difference of about 200lbs.

Interesting. So, if one were to purchase an 'S' with the 60 kWh pack, it seems that in theory it could later be upgraded to 85 kWh. I wonder if Tesla will at some point support this.

 

[palmermd]

Interesting. So, if one were to purchase an 'S' with the 60 kWh pack, it seems that in theory it could later be upgraded to 85 kWh. I wonder if Tesla will at some point support this.

the answer is no. http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/when-it-comes-time-replace-my-battery-can-i-exchange-it-different-size-battery-pack" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

IIRR, it was Tesla themselves who said that the weight of the 60 and 85kWh packs would be the same; they used Panasonic's new higher-density cells in the 85kWh pack. Both are supposed to be in the 1,200-1,300 lb. range.

Tesla are now saying that they use the same cells, but the 60kWh pack just uses less of them . There's a weight difference of about 200lbs.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12879-60-kwh-vs-85-khw?p=261350&viewfull=1#post261350

Received email confirmation of 60 kWh curb weight and battery cell type today from Tesla:

"The curb weight of the 60kWh Model S is listed at 4464lb. As for the battery cells, the 60kWh uses the same cell type as the 85kWh battery, but less of them."

Recapping the 85 kWh vs the 60 kWh car:
-Curb weight: 4647 lbs 85 kWh, 4464 lbs 60 kWh
-EPA miles per charge: 265 miles 85 kWh, 208 miles 60 kWh
-EPA MPG electric equivalent: 89 MPGe 85 kWh, 95 MPGe 60 kWh
-Battery cells: Both cars use Panasonic 3.1 ah 18650 Li-Ion cells, the 60 kWh cars use fewer.

Thanks for that. Tesla apparently changed their plans in the interim, maybe because the price of the batteries dropped? The weight savings is small, but it helps around town or climbing hills.

 

[Herm]

There are Panasonic cells with even higher capacity

 

[TonyWilliams]

There are Panasonic cells with even higher capacity

Tesla will probably use the upcoming 4000mah cells soon, over the existing 3100 and 2200.

 

[aries]

Interesting. So, if one were to purchase an 'S' with the 60 kWh pack, it seems that in theory it could later be upgraded to 85 kWh. I wonder if Tesla will at some point support this.

the answer is no. http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/when-it-comes-time-replace-my-battery-can-i-exchange-it-different-size-battery-pack" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder why this would technically be so? I understand tesla might not offer it, support it, or choose to do it... But are the three pack variants so different that they're not swappable?

Also, Ingineer -- what capacity pack are your photos of and is this pack from a model S or a RAV?

 

[NotTarts]

There are Panasonic cells with even higher capacity

Tesla will probably use the upcoming 4000mah cells soon, over the existing 3100 and 2200.

It really depends on the characteristics. Higher density doesn't exactly translate to better energy per kg. There's a pretty huge weight difference, for example, between a 1000mAh and 2400mAh AA NiMH.

 

[Zythryn]

Interesting. So, if one were to purchase an 'S' with the 60 kWh pack, it seems that in theory it could later be upgraded to 85 kWh. I wonder if Tesla will at some point support this.

the answer is no. http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/when-it-comes-time-replace-my-battery-can-i-exchange-it-different-size-battery-pack" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder why this would technically be so? I understand tesla might not offer it, support it, or choose to do it... But are the three pack variants so different that they're not swappable?

Also, Ingineer -- what capacity pack are your photos of and is this pack from a model S or a RAV?

We don't know if it is technically feasible or not. Just that officially Tesla is saying they don't support it.
I suspect Tesla has enough on their plate at the moment they can't afford the resources to nail down any upgrading procedures or policies. And why promise something now, when you aren't sure you will be able to do it in the future?

 

[GRA]

There are Panasonic cells with even higher capacity

Tesla will probably use the upcoming 4000mah cells soon, over the existing 3100 and 2200.

It really depends on the characteristics. Higher density doesn't exactly translate to better energy per kg. There's a pretty huge weight difference, for example, between a 1000mAh and 2400mAh AA NiMH.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've been assuming that for purposes of this discussion most of us are using 'higher density' to mean 'higher specific energy' (i.e. Wh/kg), rather than energy density (Wh/l).

 

[evnow]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've been assuming that for purposes of this discussion most of us are using 'higher density' to mean 'higher specific energy' (i.e. Wh/kg), rather than energy density (Wh/l).

Also there is good correlation between them.

 

[mitch672]

Consumer Reports tests out a SuperCharger: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2013/01/rapid-charging-at-a-tesla-ev-supercharge-station.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Train]

Interesting the author considers 45 minutes a "rapid" charge. I would it consider it anything but rapid. Tesla appropriately named them Superchargers.

If you get there and they're all being used, now you're waiting an hour or more.

 

[Randy]

It's going to be a few years until EVs approach the 1 GW effective transfer rate of gasoline...

MAybe a gas car would work better for you...

 

[NotTarts]

Interesting the author considers 45 minutes a "rapid" charge. I would it consider it anything but rapid. Tesla appropriately named them Superchargers.

If you get there and they're all being used, now you're waiting an hour or more.

If you can't deal with this, don't buy an electric car. Thankfully most people can, considering how fast the Model S replenishes range compared to other electric cars.

Personally I think the benefits of not having to use a gas station to fill up in everyday life beats out the small inconvenience of a slightly longer roadtrip that only occurs a few times a year anyway.