Official Mercedes B-class EV thread

[Weckel]

use CHAdeMonster ? no thanks, this huge plug it is not the future. I don't waste my money on that.

 

[TomT]

So very true! Our BMW with the Sports Seats was the benchmark there...

I've driven it for an extended time and found it to be quite roomy for me in the driver's position. My wife preferred the passenger side of the MB to that of the Leaf, though she likes both and said she would be perfectly happy in either... She did comment, though, that both the MB front seats were better than the Leafs... ......snip......

..... not that it takes a Herculean effort to accomplish that .....

 

[TonyWilliams]

use CHAdeMonster ? no thanks, this huge plug it is not the future. I don't waste my money on that.

Oh, then which of the several worldwide plugs are "the future"?


DC fast charging system standards IEC 61851-23 gives the requirements for "DC chargers" and provides the general requirements for the control communication between a DC fast charger and an EV. IEC 62851-24 defines digital communication between a DC fast charger and an EV.


1) CHAdeMO (System A)

2) GB/T (B)

3) COMBO1 by the US and COMBO2 by Germany (C)

4) Tesla Supercharger (not recognized by IEC)

5) Other



USA Quick Charge data, sometimes colloquially referred to as "L3"

1. SAE CCS Combo1, or "J1772 DC" - approximately 23 in the USA (and worldwide)
http://standards.sae.org/j1772_201210/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
up to 100kW eventually, probably limited to 62.5kW
EVs compatible include:

*GM Spark EV - less than 1000 cars
*BMW i3 - less than 1000 cars
*VW eGolf (coming 2014)



2. CHAdeMO - 3800 worldwide, 700 in the USA, adding about 1 per day
http://www.chademo.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
up to 100kW eventually, currently limited to 62.5kW
EVs compatible with CHAdeMO include:

*Nissan LEAF - over 60,000 in the USA and over 140,000 worldwide
*Nissan e-NV200 (coming 2015)
*Citroen C-Zero - not sold in USA
*Citroën Berlingo - not sold in USA
*Mitsubishi i-MiEV - over 30,000 worldwide with its variants C-Zero & iON
*Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (coming 2015)
*Mitsubishi Fuso Canter truck
*Peugeot iON - not sold in USA
*Peugeot Partner - not sold in USA
*Kia Soul EV (coming Oct 2014)
*ZERO motorcycles
*Tesla except Roadster with Tesla supplied adaptor



3. Supercharger - 200 worldwide, 120 stations in the USA, each with 4-8 stalls, growing fast
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
up to 135kW eventually, currently limited at some sites to 120kW
EVs compatible with Supercharger include:

*Tesla only, except Roadster - 55,000 worldwide


*******

Neither GB/T and CCS-Combo2 are offered outside of China and Europe respectively

 

[Weckel]

For me the best is Combo Type 2, more energy and only one socket in the car, or Tesla version of Type 2 Mennekes with 115Kw in the same socket. And if America sould be diferent (not always better, just diferent) and don't want have Type 2, they have the Tesla socket powerfull and small, and free of patent. Pay to Tesla for access to their Superchargers sould be the best solution.

Now are more chademo, but in the future I don't think so, when BMW sell his cheap Fast Charger for their Franchises or sell to GM, for example, and it's cheaper than Chademo.

In Europe, KIA put his Chademo with AC Fast Charger too, because they don't trust in Chademo.

 

[TonyWilliams]

For me the best is Combo Type 2, more energy and only one socket in the car, or Tesla version of Type 2 Mennekes with 115Kw in the same socket. And if America sould be diferent (not always better, just diferent) and don't want have Type 2, they have the Tesla socket powerfull and small, and free of patent. Pay to Tesla for access to their Superchargers sould be the best solution.

Now are more chademo, but in the future I don't think so, when BMW sell his cheap Fast Charger for their Franchises or sell to GM, for example, and it's cheaper than Chademo.

In Europe, KIA put his Chademo with AC Fast Charger too, because they don't trust in Chademo.

Well, there are a number of problems with your thoughts.

1) America doesn't have Type 2 Menekkes in the USA, in part, becasue it requires three phase power. Unlike the rest of the world, that is not common in residential areas in the country that invented three phase power, USA. So, short of a complete rework of the USA electrical grid, let's just say that it isn't going to happen.


2) Tesla socket would be ideal for USA (and the world) except they are a company with a proprietary plug. It is not public domain, nor recognized as a world standard. Unless auto manufacturers PAY Tesla for the rights to Superchargers, that's not going to happen either. Even if one or two companies did buy into Supercharger in the future, that will still leave all the rest needing public charging. Free of patents does not mean free to use... it's a common misconception.


3) if Bosch can build a small 25kW charger, so can any company in the world do the same for CHAdeMO (there are actually already 20-25kW CHAdeMO chargers in the world). The difference is how much money will the several companies lose installing these? Nissan, Mitsubishi, Kia, etc, all subsidizes chargers. There's no magic. Nissan actually gives their 44kW CHAdeMO chargers away.


4) Kia is "afraid" of CHAdeMO, which is why CHAdeMO is the only plug on their car? Fear is a powerful thing to throw around... they are "AFRAID" of some undisclosed and unknown bad thing! Ya, good luck with that craziness. Now, why did they buy chargers with both a CHAdeMO and CCS plugs? I have no idea, but I can guess:

a) they got a good deal on them

b) they are built in the "home" country of Korea, and therefore grossly subsidized by that government

c) the charger manufacturer is trying to promote their product with "earned advertising" through Kia. That means that other folks who might want to buy a CCS charger learned about this product at no direct cost to the charger manufacturer.

d) Kia wants to bring OTHER car brands into the dealership to sway them into a "conquest" sale.

e) Fear


Yep, fear is probably it, you're right.

*********

Let's just say that CHAdeMO wins by default... in a "landslide". That why our "JdeMO" will be a CHAdeMO inlet on the Mercedes B-Class ED, just like the Toyota Rav4 EV.

We will likely also look at the BMW i3. You do know that they put CHAdeMO plugs on the i3 in Japan, right?

 

[padamson1]

Let's just say that CHAdeMO wins by default... in a "landslide". That why our "JdeMO" will be a CHAdeMO inlet on the Mercedes B-Class ED, just like the Toyota Rav4 EV.

Not sure there is enough room for a CHAdeMO in that tiny gas cap area, while the FrankenPlug would fit, it would still be tight. They'll have to move the port, enlarge the gas cap area, or add a new door someplace. I guess we'll see when the 2015 comes out.

More importantly the CHAdeMO cables are so short they might not be able to reach the port on the B-Class in its current location (even if you back in) because it's at a right angle to the charger...Kia did it right...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Let's just say that CHAdeMO wins by default... in a "landslide". That why our "JdeMO" will be a CHAdeMO inlet on the Mercedes B-Class ED, just like the Toyota Rav4 EV.

Not sure there is enough room for a CHAdeMO in that tiny gas cap area, while the FrankenPlug would fit, it would still be tight. They'll have to move the port, enlarge the gas cap area, or add a new door someplace. I guess we'll see when the 2015 comes out...

More importantly the CHAdeMO cables are so short they might not be able to reach the port on the B-Class in its current location (even if you back in) because it's at a right angle to the charger...Kia did it right...

The JdeMO port goes under the hood. All those issues are resolved that way, plus it can be removed for a lease return if desired.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I simply don't understand why all EVs other than Leaf have their Chargeports in the side, mimicking Gas cars. It just doesn't make any ergonomic sense. Given that in general higher the power, shorter the cables, it is asinine to expect people to back in to a charging station. I blame the ICE mentality

Nissan did it right. It is such a breeze to park, pop the door and plug it in.

 

[padamson1]

The JdeMO port goes under the hood. All those issues are resolved that way, plus it can be removed for a lease return if desired.

Hmmm this sounds risky on cars that aren't designed for QC.

From your posting about JdeMO on the Tesla site, I must assume the RAV4 EV has a Tesla SC port on it. If RAV4 EV does have Tesla SC, then the battery charge controller and surrounding electrical components wil have the correct firmware and infrastructure to handle that high current & voltage, so things should be OK. If it does not, then it will need to be added so that something doesn't fry and that means meddling with stuff I don't think owners I supposed to meddle with on their EVs.

So I wouldn't be doing this to a B-Class until I know that there is software and electrical components before and inside the battery compartment that are ready for QC voltage and current. e.g. I'd wait for Mercedes to implement their version of QC on the car before I added a CHAdeMO converter.

 

[GRA]

I simply don't understand why all EVs other than Leaf have their Chargeports in the side, mimicking Gas cars. It just doesn't make any ergonomic sense. Given that in general higher the power, shorter the cables, it is asinine to expect people to back in to a charging station. I blame the ICE mentality

Nissan did it right. It is such a breeze to park, pop the door and plug it in.

Considering that many cities including some in the US require back-in angle parking, which is safer than nose in, the best position of the charge port is by no means obvious or universal. See:

http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/data/faq_details.cfm?id=3974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Weckel]

I simply don't understand why all EVs other than Leaf have their Chargeports in the side, mimicking Gas cars. It just doesn't make any ergonomic sense. Given that in general higher the power, shorter the cables, it is asinine to expect people to back in to a charging station. I blame the ICE mentality

Nissan did it right. It is such a breeze to park, pop the door and plug it in.

Considering that many cities including some in the US require back-in angle parking, which is safer than nose in, the best position of the charge port is by no means obvious or universal. See:

http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/data/faq_details.cfm?id=3974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

YES, for me the best position is back because not all people in the word have his own garage in house, many people parking in a condo building parking and in this case the best is parking in reverse .

 

[TonyWilliams]

The JdeMO port goes under the hood. All those issues are resolved that way, plus it can be removed for a lease return if desired.

Hmmm this sounds risky on cars that aren't designed for QC.

From your posting about JdeMO on the Tesla site, I must assume the RAV4 EV has a Tesla SC port on it.

If the Rav4 EV had a Tesla Supercharger port on it, I most certainly wouldn't be wasting time for a CHAdeMO port. Rav4 EV owners could just stroll into Supercharger sites for free electrons, plus buy the $1000 CHAdeMO adaptor if they wanted to use those stations.

So, no, Rav4 EV does not have such a port.

If RAV4 EV does have Tesla SC, then the battery charge controller and surrounding electrical components wil have the correct firmware and infrastructure to handle that high current & voltage, so things should be OK. If it does not, then it will need to be added so that something doesn't fry and that means meddling with stuff I don't think owners I supposed to meddle with on their EVs.

Well, where to begin. There is no "high voltage" above what the battery is currently at. If the battery is 400 volts like it is in the Tesla Model S-85, or Nissan LEAF, or Toyota Rav4 EV, then that is how many volts the car will ask for. It is the car that controls the charger, not the other way around.

By the way, it gets the same 400 volts whether it comes from the onboard charger, or from an external DC charger like Supercharger or CHAdeMO. So, to reiterate, there isn't any difference in voltage REGARDLESS of the charging apparatus used.

The amount of amperage that the battery can handle is dependent on a whole bunch of factors, primarily the size of the pack, temperature of the cells, SOC%, etc. Currently, a Nissan LEAF charges at "2C", which means that a 24kWh battery can accept 48kW. Since the battery is 400 volts, that means 48kW divided by 400 volts equals 120 amps. Pretty easy, right?

Then, all the variables of temperature and SOC% are mapped in a program FROM THE CAR SIDE that controls how many amps that the car should request.

As to owners having some kind of interaction with high voltage DC, no, owners won't have anything to do with it. JdeMO is wholly produced by Quick Charge Power, LLC for electric vehicles, and professionally installed. There is no owner servicing or handling beyond plugging and unplugging a CHAdeMO plug.

So I wouldn't be doing this to a B-Class until I know that there is software and electrical components before and inside the battery compartment that are ready for QC voltage and current. e.g. I'd wait for Mercedes to implement their version of QC on the car before I added a CHAdeMO converter.

Again, the battery is capable of both. How many volts and amps do you think normal regeneration provides?

 

[padamson1]

First off. You are clearly more of an expert in this area than I am. I am merely approaching the question from a logic standpoint.

If the Rav4 EV had a Tesla Supercharger port on it, I most certainly wouldn't be wasting time for a CHAdeMO port. Rav4 EV owners could just stroll into Supercharger sites for free electrons, plus buy the $1000 CHAdeMO adaptor if they wanted to use those stations.

Definitely, logical. Why bother with a CHAdeMO port if I can use a Tesla SC for free? Well, for one thing, in many areas there are a lot more CHAdeMO stations than Tesla SC's.

By the way, it gets the same 400 volts whether it comes from the onboard charger, or from an external DC charger like Supercharger or CHAdeMO. So, to reiterate, there isn't any difference in voltage REGARDLESS of the charging apparatus used.

Again, logical. However QC is DC, not AC. So to connect a QC charger one is going to bypass the onboard Rectifier and tap into that supply line. That is not something that I expect that manufacturers believe owners are supposed to do to the vehicle.

The amount of amperage that the battery can handle is dependent on a whole bunch of factors, primarily the size of the pack, temperature of the cells, SOC%, etc. Currently, a Nissan LEAF charges at "2C", which means that a 24kWh battery can accept 48kW. Since the battery is 400 volts, that means 48kW divided by 400 volts equals 120 amps. Pretty easy, right?

Educational: I was unaware that the pack accepted such a high voltage, I figured there were Voltage Regulators manipulating things so that the rectifier could just take the voltage that came in. While the 120Amps is informative, I don't need to do the math to know that QC is going to supply a lot more current than that which came from the 6.6kW AC charge source. If the B-Class and RAV4 EV have exactly the same battery pack circuitry as the SC capable Tesla, well the question is moot, they should have the circuitry that I had mentioned and everything should be fine. But if the pack did not, maybe b/c the manufacturer knew that the vehicle did not have a QC/SC port so they wanted to save money, then there COULD be an issue. The question is does the Battery Firmware and circuitry (diodes, etc) have the capacity to shunt that added current and dissipate it if the EVSE failed to throttle down properly? If the pack was designed for QC then sure, if not, we'll maybe they spent more on the circuitry, but I don't want to bet my warranty on that.

Then, all the variables of temperature and SOC% are mapped in a program FROM THE CAR SIDE that controls how many amps that the car should request.

Again this is sensible and EXACTLY ON POINT. The car circuitry and firmware controls everything. Of course the firmware will have logic to only accept a certain amount of current, based on different SoC levels. But the car was shipped for a charger that tops out at 40Amps (actually less than that, but lets keep it simple). When it gets 3 times it's design load (120Amps), decides that it cannot accept it, but only has circuitry that was only designed for 40Amp what happens? Will the battery charger firmware ask the CHAdeMO to throttle down correctly? I hope so. But there should always be a backup plan if too much current comes in, typically safety diodes. That is where my fry statement came from. My experience in the computer industry is that no one pays for parts that are out of design spec. If those safety dissipation parts are outside of the battery case well then they can just be replaced (but again what is the manufacturer going to say about that?).

As to owners having some kind of interaction with high voltage DC, no, owners won't have anything to do with it. JdeMO is wholly produced by Quick Charge Power, LLC for electric vehicles, and professionally installed. There is no owner servicing or handling beyond plugging and unplugging a CHAdeMO plug.

Well here's the question. I don't think I'm supposed to mess with that part of the car, whether I paid someone else to do it or not.

Again, the battery is capable of both. How many volts and amps do you think normal regeneration provides?

Now here is something that does make me question my concerns. However regen is capped at some level, the question is what is that level?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well, for one thing, in many areas there are a lot more CHAdeMO stations than Tesla SC's.

Exactly. There are over 700 CHAdeMO stations in the USA, and most of them on are on the west coast (by a very large margin). There are at least dozens Supercharger stations on the west coast, and a handful of the SAE-CCS-Combo1.


CHAdeMO wins easily.

By the way, it gets the same 400 volts whether it comes from the onboard charger, or from an external DC charger like Supercharger or CHAdeMO. So, to reiterate, there isn't any difference in voltage REGARDLESS of the charging apparatus used.

Again, logical. However QC is DC, not AC. So to connect a QC charger one is going to bypass the onboard Rectifier and tap into that supply line. That is not something that I expect that manufacturers believe owners are supposed to do to the vehicle.

Every external charger bypasses the onboard "rectifier" (née, charger). Whether auto manufacturers want you modifying your car, or not, thankfully there are laws protecting you from the auto manufacturer's whims. A common one is the "modifications will void your warranty", which is countered by federal law since the 1970's.

The amount of amperage that the battery can handle is dependent on a whole bunch of factors, primarily the size of the pack, temperature of the cells, SOC%, etc. Currently, a Nissan LEAF charges at "2C", which means that a 24kWh battery can accept 48kW. Since the battery is 400 volts, that means 48kW divided by 400 volts equals 120 amps. Pretty easy, right?

Educational: I was unaware that the pack accepted such a high voltage, I figured there were Voltage Regulators manipulating things so that the rectifier could just take the voltage that came in.

The charger, whether onboard the car, or off-board like a CHAdeMO station, provides the exact DC voltage requested by the car. No more, and no less. The "rectifier" part is done in the charger.

While the 120Amps is informative, I don't need to do the math to know that QC is going to supply a lot more current than that which came from the 6.6kW AC charge source.

6.6kW divided by 400 volts DC = 16.5 amps

48kW divided by 400 volts DC = 125 amps

Yes, a lot more current.

there COULD be an issue. The question is does the Battery Firmware and circuitry (diodes, etc) have the capacity to shunt that added current and dissipate it if the EVSE failed to throttle down properly?

Well, not even Supercharger equipped cars can "shunt" that kind of power !!! You could heat up a city block with that kind of energy!!!

It's done differently; the programmed mapping FROM THE CAR tells the charger how many volts and how many amps. For CHAdeMO, it actually checks this one amp at a time, and it's actually how the charger is automatically shut off... by the car requesting zero amps.

That's how the charger and car "handshake" to ensure that each knows it can properly control the charge. If there's any issue, it just wouldn't charge at all.

Then, all the variables of temperature and SOC% are mapped in a program FROM THE CAR SIDE that controls how many amps that the car should request.

Again this is sensible and EXACTLY ON POINT. The car circuitry and firmware controls everything. Of course the firmware will have logic to only accept a certain amount of current, based on different SoC levels. But the car was shipped for a charger that tops out at 40Amps (actually less than that, but lets keep it simple). When it gets 3 times it's design load (120Amps), decides that it cannot accept it, but only has circuitry that was only designed for 40Amp what happens?

Well, just like any DC off-board charger capable car, the onboard charger parameters are not used. Your Nissan LEAF doesn't ask the onboard charger to provide anything when the CHAdeMO plug is installed. Actually, Nissan uses a completely separate CAN-bus message system for CHAdeMO, and so does our JdeMO.

You are confusing what the capabilities are of the onboard charger to the capabilities of the battery. Even without charging, the Nissan LEAF battery can provide 80kW under maximum acceleration, and regenerate about 30-50kW... all day long.

Regeneration *is* charging, but coming from the motor when it turns into a big generator during braking.

Will the battery charger firmware ask the CHAdeMO to throttle down correctly?

Not the onboard charger, no. Again, the onboard battery charger on the car is completely out of the loop during an off-board charge, whether Supercharger, CHAdeMO, GB/T, or CCS.

I hope so. But there should always be a backup plan if too much current comes in, typically safety diodes.

We don't provide anything beyond the EXTENSIVE safety protocols of CHAdeMO V1.0. We absolutely won't be re-engineering their fine work. CHAdeMO specs can be found at http://www.chademo.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As to owners having some kind of interaction with high voltage DC, no, owners won't have anything to do with it. JdeMO is wholly produced by Quick Charge Power, LLC for electric vehicles, and professionally installed. There is no owner servicing or handling beyond plugging and unplugging a CHAdeMO plug.

Well here's the question. I don't think I'm supposed to mess with that part of the car, whether I paid someone else to do it or not.

Can you find that documentation from the manufacturer? You won't, because it doesn't exist. Can a manufacturer stop you from installing fuzzy dice hanging from your mirror? No. What about fancy wheels, no matter how ridiculous they look or how unsafe they are? No.

What they can and will do is if the fuzzy dice weigh 100 pounds and break the mirror, and you stroll in to get warranty work done on the mirror, it is absolutley guaranteed that if they know about the 100 pound fuzzy dice, they will deny that warranty claim. You will lose in court, too.

Same for the wheels. If the wheel bearings wear out, they will likely blame it on the wheels, and you will lose in court. But, if you have 100 pound fuzzy dice and 75mm offset Ridiculous brand wheels on the car and you roll in for a battery issue, they CAN NOT deny your warranty claim becasue you "modified" your car with things that do not affect the battery. You will likely win this in court.

So, let's say you stroll into the dealer with your JdeMO on your Mercedes B-Class. Can they deny a battery warranty claim based on that. Absolutely. Will you win in court? I don't know; but I do know that they will try, of that I have no doubt.

Again, the battery is capable of both. How many volts and amps do you think normal regeneration provides?

Now here is something that does make me question my concerns. However regen is capped at some level, the question is what is that level?

The amount of power the battery can accept in continuous charging is determined by a number of variables. Again, Nissan determined 2C was OK. Tesla is slightly more conservative at 1.6C.

We will charge the Toyota Rav4 EV at 1C maximum, and the Merecedes B-Class ED @ 1.3C.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I learnt a lot from this exchange, guys. Thanks to both of padamson1 & Tony. This is what makes this a great forum.

 

[padamson1]

I learnt a lot from this exchange, guys. Thanks to both of padamson1 & Tony. This is what makes this a great forum.

+1. Thanks TonyWilliams for your in-depth (and patient) replies.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I learnt a lot from this exchange, guys. Thanks to both of padamson1 & Tony. This is what makes this a great forum.

+1. Thanks TonyWilliams for your in-depth (and patient) replies.

You're welcome. I'd like to think that most of my posts were "high quality", if not always patient. ;-)

 

[Berlino]

The amount of power the battery can accept in continuous charging is determined by a number of variables. Again, Nissan determined 2C was OK. Tesla is slightly more conservative at 1.6C.

Some Tesla 60s have seen 105kW (1.75C) at Superchargers.

 

[gsleaf]

Has anyone noticed windshield distortion with the Mercedes B-class EV? My wife is a bit shorter, but she is getting a headache from looking through the front windshield because it's distorting things funny.

 

[GRA]

Has anyone noticed windshield distortion with the Mercedes B-class EV? My wife is a bit shorter, but she is getting a headache from looking through the front windshield because it's distorting things funny.

Although the number of B-Class owners is quite small, I'd think you've still got a better chance of getting a question such as this one answered on their own forum:

http://www.mybclasselectricdrive.com/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;