Official California PG&E Thread

[rclams]

Wow, I like my new meter running on the E9a schedule.

After two days, my off-peak usage is 33 kWh and my part peak usage is -22 kWh. So even though my net consumption is 11 kWh, my net cost will be

33*0.06186 - 22*0.11123 = -$0.41

i.e. a credit of $0.41 (not counting the additional meter fees). :mrgreen:

We have a similar setup: 1 LEAF and 3 kW peak PV.


==> How did you decide for E9a (TOU house + EV on one meter) vs E9b (EV only, second meter)?


PG&E has a (pretty good, IMO) "EV TOU meter selection spreadsheet" which suggested E9b for us but it does NOT CONSIDER PV. But PG&E does not have a spreadsheet for considering (EV + PV) as far as I know.


BTW, I have a PG&E rep inquiring with the Revenue Department about using the BLINK's built-in kW meter as my billing meter! We shall see ....

 

[idunk]

Anybody who actually switched to E9B? What was the cost of installing the second meter? What was the exact installation procedure? Thanks!

 

[edatoakrun]

PG&E is considering rate changes, E1 below:

Cordner said low-income customers pay about 8.3 cents per kilowatt hour for Tier 1 usage and about 9.5 cents for Tier 2. At the third tier the cost would rise to 12.5 cents per kilowatt hour.

In comparison, regular customers pay about 14 cents a kilowatt hour for Tier 2. Those at Tier 4, the highest level, pay about 40 cents. Under the proposal the Tier 4 cost would be lowered to about 32 cents per kilowatt hour.

Read more: http://www.mercedsunstar.com/2011/04/29/1871294/proposed-pge-hikes-criticized.html#ixzz1LOanx3v3

Unreported, is where E9 rates would go.

Does appear likely to give those pg&e LEAF owners, that "can't" do E9, a rate cut.

IMO, PG&E's motivation is not as stated.

The fact is, PG&E is facing the loss of it's most profitable customers, high-tier, high-use, high-income (30% tax credit) residents, to home fuel cells. If you want to charge your Tesla AND heat your tract mansion, complete with pool and spa, A fuel cell installation makes sense today. PG&E doesn't really want to see fuel cells move into middle-class neighborhoods, as they make a lot more money in "value added" electricity, than in natural gas sales.

 

[astrorob]

PG&E is considering rate changes, E1 below:

Cordner said low-income customers pay about 8.3 cents per kilowatt hour for Tier 1 usage and about 9.5 cents for Tier 2. At the third tier the cost would rise to 12.5 cents per kilowatt hour.

In comparison, regular customers pay about 14 cents a kilowatt hour for Tier 2. Those at Tier 4, the highest level, pay about 40 cents. Under the proposal the Tier 4 cost would be lowered to about 32 cents per kilowatt hour.

Read more: http://www.mercedsunstar.com/2011/04/29/1871294/proposed-pge-hikes-criticized.html#ixzz1LOanx3v3

so it looks like this did happen:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/05/27/BU1F1JLL1G.DTL

is moving to E9a or E9b compulsory for EV owners?

while it's hard to know how much corruption there is in the CARE program (meaning, people on CARE that actually have the means to pay regular rates), assuming people on CARE actually belong there, it sucks that this is being balanced on the backs of the poor.

 

[Spies]

is moving to E9a or E9b compulsory for EV owners?

It used to be mandatory but was change recently to be optional. From http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf

This optional experimental schedule applies to electric service to customers for whom (T) Schedule E-1 applies and who have a currently registered Motor Vehicle, as defined by the California Motor Vehicle Code, which is: 1) a battery electric vehicle (BEV) or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) recharged via a recharging outlet at the customer’s premises; or, 2) a natural gas vehicle (NGV) refueled via a home refueling appliance (HRA) at the customer’s premises.

 

[astrorob]

is moving to E9a or E9b compulsory for EV owners?

It used to be mandatory but was change recently to be optional. From http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf

This optional experimental schedule applies to electric service to customers for whom (T) Schedule E-1 applies and who have a currently registered Motor Vehicle, as defined by the California Motor Vehicle Code, which is: 1) a battery electric vehicle (BEV) or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) recharged via a recharging outlet at the customer’s premises; or, 2) a natural gas vehicle (NGV) refueled via a home refueling appliance (HRA) at the customer’s premises.

thanks, i was under the impression it was mandatory, i guess i must not have been looking at the latest version of that tariff sheet.

the ex-tesla CEO spreadsheet shows that E9a would work out in my favor, but i was still not convinced. with the lowering of the E1 tier 4 rate, staying on E1 might make sense now; i'll have to re-run the spreadsheet.

 

[planet4ever]

the ex-tesla CEO spreadsheet shows that E9a would work out in my favor, but i was still not convinced. with the lowering of the E1 tier 4 rate, staying on E1 might make sense now; i'll have to re-run the spreadsheet.

Have you seen the new baseline amounts or the new rates for E9? If so, I'd like a pointer. If you don't have those, I can't imagine how any spreadsheet could give a meaningful result.

Ray

 

[astrorob]

the ex-tesla CEO spreadsheet shows that E9a would work out in my favor, but i was still not convinced. with the lowering of the E1 tier 4 rate, staying on E1 might make sense now; i'll have to re-run the spreadsheet.

Have you seen the new baseline amounts or the new rates for E9? If so, I'd like a pointer. If you don't have those, I can't imagine how any spreadsheet could give a meaningful result.

Ray

wait, is the pdf linked above already out of date for E9? or is there a new proposed E9 rate that has not been ratified? it turns out i was using that tariff sheet but i missed the part about "optional" in the first few paragraphs. the excel spreadsheet is quite old and the rates are wrong for pretty much all the tariff schedules, so i at least fixed up E1 and E9.

the above pdf does not have a baseline amount table. i think i just used the amounts from my latest bill. are the baselines changing because of the E1 rate adjustment?

i guess so:

http://www.pge.com/about/newsroom/newsreleases/20100323/pge_proposes_simplified_system_of_electric_rates.shtml

but it should be pretty easy to convert the current baselines to the new ones; 0.55/0.60 * current_baseline = new_baseline if i understand the above correctly.

 

[oakwcj]

See http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf

 

[planet4ever]

wait, is the pdf linked above already out of date for E9? or is there a new proposed E9 rate that has not been ratified?

The document linked earlier (and that oakwcj listed just above) is the current E9 schedule, as of March 2011. The one we need is the one the report says will go into effect in June 2011.
No, wait! Scratch that:

In its new proposal, which would take effect next year, ...

So we won't be seeing, or worrying about, the new schedule for at least six months.

the above pdf does not have a baseline amount table. i think i just used the amounts from my latest bill. are the baselines changing because of the E1 rate adjustment? i guess so:

http://www.pge.com/about/newsroom/n...ses_simplified_system_of_electric_rates.shtml

but it should be pretty easy to convert the current baselines to the new ones; 0.55/0.60 * current_baseline = new_baseline if i understand the above correctly.

Duh! I wasn't thinking straight. You are right, of course.

Ray

 

[Spies]

So we won't be seeing, or worrying about, the new schedule for at least six months.

Wait, what? What new schedule? I know PG&E asked for changes to baseline quantities but they were turned down and the news release that was linked to previously was from March 23, 2010. The latest changes are in this news release http://www.pge.com/about/newsroom/newsreleases/20110526/pgampe_receives_approval_to_lower_top_residential_electric_rate_in_june.shtml and was also covered in the Chronicle here http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/05/26/BU1F1JLL1G.DTL

I admit I have no idea if and when this change will impact E9 rates.

Edit: I missed that part in the Chronicle article that PG&E was approved to move the baseline:

At the same time, the boundaries between the tiers - for all customers - will shift. Many people who now qualify as tier-one customers will end up in tier two, and many currently in tier two will move up to tier three. As a result, they will pay a higher rate than they do now, even if the amount of electricity they use doesn't change.

I have not been able to find links when this will go into effect and what the new official basline numbers are. This change certainly shifts the cost burden to those that use little power from those that use a lot of power. Makes getting a small solar system even more attractive.

 

[gascant]

Anybody who actually switched to E9B? What was the cost of installing the second meter? What was the exact installation procedure? Thanks!

Nope--got several quotes to have the 2nd meter installed and they were running $3000+ So I decided to go E9A and tough it out until I stop commuting. A friend of mine did a 2nd meter install himself (using the same hardware I would have used) and it ended up costing him $1700 and a lot of grief with PG&E. The electrician (Robert from A1) who came to BayLEAFs gathering #2 at Boardwalk Nissan was recommending against E-9B. I think you were there, right?

 

[astrorob]

I have not been able to find links when this will go into effect and what the new official basline numbers are. This change certainly shifts the cost burden to those that use little power from those that use a lot of power. Makes getting a small solar system even more attractive.

the chronicle article says the new E1 rates go into effect in june... so next tuesday at the earliest, i suppose.

as far as E9 is concerned, it sounds like only E9B is changing to become non-TOU. not sure if there are any changes planned to the E9A tariff schedule.

 

[planet4ever]

as far as E9 is concerned, it sounds like only E9B is changing to become non-TOU. not sure if there are any changes planned to the E9A tariff schedule.

Where did that come from? Not the Chronicle article so far as I can tell. It really seems like an odd thing to do. PG&E is saying, "We don't care what time of day or night you charge your EV." :?:

Ray

 

[astrorob]

as far as E9 is concerned, it sounds like only E9B is changing to become non-TOU. not sure if there are any changes planned to the E9A tariff schedule.

Where did that come from? Not the Chronicle article so far as I can tell. It really seems like an odd thing to do. PG&E is saying, "We don't care what time of day or night you charge your EV." :?:

Ray

oh, sorry, i was confused... they were told to offer a non-tiered TOU program. i guess that means that you will always pay the same amount for the energy, no matter how much you use. seems like PG&E would then ask for that non-tiered rate to be some average of the current tiered rates for a given time of day?

this is the thread in question: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3041

 

[idunk]

Anybody who actually switched to E9B? What was the cost of installing the second meter? What was the exact installation procedure? Thanks!

Nope--got several quotes to have the 2nd meter installed and they were running $3000+ So I decided to go E9A and tough it out until I stop commuting. A friend of mine did a 2nd meter install himself (using the same hardware I would have used) and it ended up costing him $1700 and a lot of grief with PG&E. The electrician (Robert from A1) who came to BayLEAFs gathering #2 at Boardwalk Nissan was recommending against E-9B. I think you were there, right?

Yup, you are right, I was at the . I haven't had a formal quote, but the informal ones I got (including one from Robert) were in the $3,000 range. At this point, I'll wait until after the summer to make an E1 vs. E9A to see how my AC usage + my EV usage affect my bill and then make a decision.

 

[edatoakrun]

New PG&E baseline levels chart linked below, June 2nd entry:

In almost all of PG&E's climate zones, the baseline will decrease on June 20. So if you've been using 100 percent of the old baseline, you'll end up in tier two rather than staying in tier one.

To figure out your old and new baselines, you'll need to do two things. First, click here to check PG&E's climate zone map. Note that each zone is identified by a letter.

Now, check the chart below, and look up the letter for your climate zone. The numbers you see are kilowatt hours used in a month.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/energy/index#ixzz1PLp24azP

 

[GeorgeParrott]

Fellow Leafers, and anybody who is a PG&E customer for electricity,

Here is a link to a really thoughtful posting on how much you will be paying, based on rates current in 2009, over the next 25 years or so as a prisoner of PG&E:

http://cleantechnica.com/2009/07/10/really-solar-is-actually-cheaper-than-pge/

I have posted earlier, but this current sub theme here on PG&E's most recent move to shaft us induces me to suggest once more:

GO SOLAR, Go wind turbine, but escape from the economic jail that PG&E puts the customer in !!!!

We left a "public utility area (SMUD in Sacramento) after 38 years to move just outside their service area, so we could be much closer to my wife's work (at UC, Davis). Our last monthly bill from SMUD for electricity was for almost exactly the same kW draw as our first month in the new house served by "wonderful" PG&E, the new house bill was FOUR TIMES what our previous month had been under SMUD !!!! Over the next 3 months I did everything I could to be more careful about power use in the new house and I was able to reduce our monthly PG&E electricity bill from that first shocking $320 to an amazingly low $250 (sarcasm OK?). By the 5th month in the new house, which by the way is HIGHLY energy efficient...much better construction and all energy star appliances, etc., I was getting bids for a solar PV system large enough to project WIPING OUT our actual PG&E monthly use fees. We ended up with a 3.7 kWh system, and at the end of our first "true up" 12 months, it had wiped out totally our monthly electricity use fees (though we still pay about $13/month as a grid connect fee). The second year in the new house, in anticipation of the "going electric" with both of our family cars, I had a second 1.4 kWh PV system installed, projecting that such capacity would give me TOU credits to fully cover the nighttime charging of both electric cars....and that projection is holding up perfectly and it appears that PG&E might even still have to PAY US BACK for some excess credit at the end of this year's true-up period, since we have only had our Leaf and Volt about 8 months of our 12 month PG&E annual payment period.

Here is a link to a CONSUMER REPORTS article on our cars and house:

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/04/a-tale-of-two-evs-california-man-shows-how-chevrolet-volt-nissan-leaf-can-pay-off-1.html

I just saw a report in today's Sacramento Bee about Google funding a loan program for the installation of home PV systems. IF you have not gotten a recent bid on the installation of PV, don't delay ! The Federal tax credit as of 2009 onward would have reduced the cost of our 3.7 kWh system by over $8000, since we installed that in 2008. The first link I posted analyzing the payoff and costs for installation of PV clearly takes into account this much more significant national incentive.

 

[Spies]

I just noticed that the new E9 rates and baseline quantities are available at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf and will go into effect June 20, 2011.

The lowering of the baseline and the increasing price of tier 3 is certainly going to sting and looks to be the single biggest price hike I will experience since being on the E9A rate going back to 1998.

 

[astrorob]

I just noticed that the new E9 rates and baseline quantities are available at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf and will go into effect June 20, 2011.

The lowering of the baseline and the increasing price of tier 3 is certainly going to sting and looks to be the single biggest price hike I will experience since being on the E9A rate going back to 1998.

thanks for posting that. i'm glad i downloaded the old E9 and E1 schedules before those came out.

looking at the E1 schedule, it seems a bit different than what was reported in the press earlier. the sfgate story i read said the top tier would be 0.333/kwh but in the new E1 document they give 0.3418/kwh. i thought maybe they were showing the 7.5% energy tax but it does not work out. i wonder what happened. other than the usual "the customer gets skrewd", that is.

does anyone have a solar installer in the east bay area that they trust? i talked to one big outfit and after lots of analysis they decided that my roof had too many penetrations and was too complex to install the proper-sized system. but now i'm thinking that even a small system would help a lot.