Official BMW i3 thread

[BestPal]

I'm having a hard time understanding when people here complain about "miserable" EV range of the i3. For all practical purposes the i3 has essentially the same EV range as the Leaf...

Not exactly. LEAF has 84 miles combined cycle range, i3 REX rated at only 72 miles (before it starts burning tar juice) nine miles less on E than the I3 BEV.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35207&id=34918&id=35601&id=35279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wait a second. Lets compare apples to apples here. The i3's no REx (or BEV) version gets an EPA of 81 miles range:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35207" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As I said, for practical purposes it's virtually identical to Leaf. But when you throw in REx, sure, pure EV drops a little to 72 (but not really because at 72 miles there is still 7% reserve left) but you get all the freedom and it's not even in the same league with Leaf at this point and you don't need to own a second ICE car, so can't even begin to compare the two.

 

[GRA]

I'm having a hard time understanding when people here complain about "miserable" EV range of the i3. For all practical purposes the i3 has essentially the same EV range as the Leaf...

Not exactly. LEAF has 84 miles combined cycle range, i3 REX rated at only 72 miles (before it starts burning tar juice) nine miles less on E than the I3 BEV.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35207&id=34918&id=35601&id=35279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wait a second. Lets compare apples to apples here. The i3's no REx (or BEV) version gets an EPA of 81 miles range:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35207" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As I said, for practical purposes it's virtually identical to Leaf. But when you throw in REx, sure, pure EV drops a little to 72 (but not really because at 72 miles there is still 7% reserve left) but you get all the freedom and it's not even in the same league with Leaf at this point and you don't need to own a second ICE car, so can't even begin to compare the two.

The claim I highlighted is only true in a limited number of situations with the i3REx. You could make that statement about a Volt, Fusion/C-Max Energi or PiP and it would be accurate almost anywhere, but the i3REx, definitely not.

 

[TonyWilliams]

P.S. I personally dislike the entire idea of public DC charging, it's expensive, cumbersome and planning around it is a nightmare. If you only need an occasional trip beyond EV range, REx is a cheaper option to operate on per mile basis once you're beyond EV range. And a lot less headache too.

So, gasoline motorcycles engines are the answer to public DC charging?

Heck, gasoline stations are very expensive, too, and toxic, and a whole lot of other not-very-favorable things. I personally dislike public gasoline stations.

If cheaper is your only concern, electric wins HANDS DOWN.

 

[TomT]

I don't think anyone would want to drive very far on the wretched Rex, and also stop for fuel every 50 miles or so, so I refute your assumption.

you don't need to own a second ICE car, so can't even begin to compare the two.

 

[lorenfb]

"The one thing I've been saying is that if you understand how the car works, and keep an eye on the SOC once you are in REx mode, you can do nearly anything. If the buffer begins to erode because your doing a sustained climb you slow down a bit and it regains."

That's a problem when one needs to have near full power under all conditions which is not the case when
the capacity is very low and reliance is on the Rex.

"You can even pull over for a couple minutes if needed and allow it to regain the full 6.5% buffer and continue."

That's great, right? Having to pull over on an expressway or in an area where there's an unsafe shoulder.

Bottom line: The Rex provides an unsafe sense of security that most potential buyers don't realize
or for those new buyers who haven't encountered a problematic driving condition. With a Leaf or
any BEV without a Mickey Mouse backup ICE, one always basically knows what the range will be
and plans the trip accordingly.

 

[BestPal]

P.S. I personally dislike the entire idea of public DC charging, it's expensive, cumbersome and planning around it is a nightmare...

...
If cheaper is your only concern, electric wins HANDS DOWN.

Oh this is so much fun. Lets do the 3rd grade math together on DC charging on our occasional trips beyond EV range vs range extender option on the same trip, OK?
In San Diego area to charge a Leaf or an i3 from 0-80% will take about 30 minutes and will cost $10.95
http://www.nrgevgo.com/san-diego-county/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

80% added charge will give you 63 miles of range (give or take a mile or two).

Range extender will use 1.65 gal at 38mpg (EPA) and at today's $3.50/gal it adds up to $5.80 for the same 63 miles.

In what world $10.95 is less than $5.80 HANDS DOWN??

When I need an OCCASIONAL trip beyond my Leaf's EV range I would love to have a range extender just to avoid madness and time wasting around public DC charging. To each their own but the fact is that range extender saves time and money when compared to public DC not even mentioning madness around trying to find one when you really need it. And when you find one it's either down or has a car charging and another one waiting to charge before you. Now an hour or more of you time is gone. Yes, I'd rather pump in a couple of gal on that once a week trip and get home to drive on electricity, just like I do with my Leaf for another week or two until I need to take another longer trip.
You chose what suits you best I still hate public DC and if I could avoid it all together, I would.

 

[BestPal]

If it's a 200 mile trip to an airport in another city a couple of times a year, I would certainly stop once or twice to gas up, it would take less time than two DC charging session to complete the same trip and will cost less too. When the alternative is not making it there at all, or wasting hours at DC or owning a second car, I'd take REx. Heck I really want one in my leaf now, it would make EV ownership so much less of a pain in the neck.

I don't think anyone would want to drive very far on the wretched Rex, and also stop for fuel every 50 miles or so, so I refute your assumption.

you don't need to own a second ICE car, so can't even begin to compare the two.

 

[TomT]

OK, let's do the math with a 200 mile freeway trip at 65 mph...

Out of electricity at about 70 miles and switch to gas...
At about 50 miles we stop for gas (you are not going to want to risk running out by going the full 70).. Total range now about 120..
At about another 50 we stop for gas a second time... Total range now about 170 miles...
Arrive at destination with about half a tank...
Get a Volt! No need to stop at all!

If it's a 200 mile trip to an airport in another city a couple of times a year, I would certainly stop once or twice to gas up, it would take less time than two DC charging session to complete the same trip and will cost less too. When the alternative is not making it there at all, or wasting hours at DC or owning a second car, I'd take REx. Heck I really want one in my leaf now, it would make EV ownership so much less of a pain in the neck.

 

[BestPal]

OK, let's do the math with a 200 mile freeway trip at 65 mph...
Get a Volt! No need to stop at all!

Sure, I like the Volt, but I want my day-to-day driving be purely electric. Volt won't do. Not enough EV range plain and simple. I'd rather gas up twice on a very rare for me 200 mile trip, have 80 mile EV for day-to-day and not own a second car.

 

[TomT]

Based on my extended drive, the Rex version is not an 80 mile car unless you spend a lot of time on city streets at relatively lower speeds...

I'd rather gas up twice on a very rare for me 200 mile trip, have 80 mile EV for day-to-day and not own a second car.

 

[BestPal]

I stand corrected. 72 EV miles before REx kicks in (with 7% battery left in reserve). Still almost double the Volt's EV range. Works for me. Now if only BMW could bring the i3 REx price closer to Volt's price, or fully loaded Leaf's price it would probably dominate the market....

Based on my extended drive, the Rex version is not an 80 mile car unless you spend a lot of time on city streets at relatively lower speeds...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Oh this is so much fun. Lets do the 3rd grade math together on DC charging on our occasional trips beyond EV range vs range extender option on the same trip, OK?
In San Diego area to charge a Leaf or an i3 from 0-80% will take about 30 minutes and will cost $10.95
http://www.nrgevgo.com/san-diego-county/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

80% added charge will give you 63 miles of range (give or take a mile or two).

Range extender will use 1.65 gal at 38mpg (EPA) and at today's $3.50/gal it adds up to $5.80 for the same 63 miles.

In what world $10.95 is less than $5.80 HANDS DOWN??

When I need an OCCASIONAL trip beyond my Leaf's EV range I would love to have a range extender just to avoid madness and time wasting around public DC charging....
You chose what suits you best I still hate public DC and if I could avoid it all together, I would.

So, you support my statement. You chose gasoline over supporting electric vehicle infrastructure because of cost (which I stated) and convenience. Yes, it's tough to break the habit of 100,000 public oil dispensing stations.

Now let's compare my math (which I'm going to say is above third grade level, so I hope you can follow along). I drove my 2014 Toyota Rav4 EV with "JdeMO" port from beautiful San Diego to Northridge this past Saturday.

It was 75 miles from my house in San Diego to Irvine, where I stopped at the ChargePoint station at Marriott Courtyard Irvine Spectrum. There are two Nissan / Sumitomo built chargers there. Neither was taken, nor did anybody show up to use them while I was there. I'm going to call that "not crowded".

I paid about $4.50 for a thirty minute charge there, thanks to the fantastic billing structure of charge station owner EV Oasis of only 15 cents per minute, plus a fantastic new hotel with clean bathrooms 24/7, food, shopping mall across the street, seating areas, etc. (for folks that know me, how's the advertising going?).

I was running a little late, so I cranked it up to "hyperspeed" on the 405 freeway, with the intent to charge at the free CHAdeMO station in Tarzana. But, I didn't need to, and completed the 145 mile trip to Bob's Big Boy in Northridge with about 30-ish miles on the GOM. Total time enroute, two hours driving, 30 minutes charging.

Then, after lunch, I decided to take a few of my friends over to the free CHAdeMO stations at California State University, Northridge for a little charger show-and-tell. I charged for an additional 33 minutes, then drove up to Valenica / Santa Clarita (Magic Mountain area).

Gosh, that sure looks like a TON of driving for just 63 minutes of charging and $4.50.

How's my math so far? You keep pumping that gasoline, and the rest of us will drag transportation into the 21st century. Thanks for playing.

 

[BestPal]

So, you support my statement. You chose gasoline over supporting electric vehicle infrastructure because of cost (which I stated) and convenience. Yes, it's tough to break the habit of 100,000 public oil dispensing stations.

Look I'm a fan but not a fanatic. And you're wrong. I fully support electric cars and I put my money where my mouth is. I drive a Leaf and I have some investments into those people and companies that propel society towards getting off fossil fuel (including solar companies). That's one.
Two. I like the i3 REx approach because what BMW is offering is an electric car that will be used as electric most of the time by most of the drivers that choose to drive it but will also give them a peace of mind and convenience for a tiny percentage of driving that will be beyond EV range.
When I go pick up a friend or a family member from LAX (driving from San Diego) or if I'm trying to make a flight on time myself, the last thing that I want to worry about is availability of DC stations on the way to the airport. Taking friends to hang out for 30 minutes at a DC station could be yours but is not my idea of fun. i3 REx is a fully functional electric car for practical person. I'm all for moving society towards electric and i3 is helping to accomplish that by introducing people to EV world that otherwise wouldn't have entered but I'm against fundamentalism in any form. "all electric or nothing" is a form of fundamentalism. What about Leaf owners that have a gas burning second car in the garage? You gonna thank them for playing and write them off too?

How's my math so far? You keep pumping that gasoline, and the rest of us will drag transportation into the 21st century. Thanks for playing.

I think I was able to follow your 1st grade math; barely but I managed. Especially when you were able to hunt down that one free DC charging station, waste over an hour of your time and take that into your calculations all in effort to beat my presented REx numbers. Good for you. Not realistic or acceptable for masses. Only proves my point that public DC charging is not practical solution for mass market EV acceptance (if that's our common and ultimate goal here). As for the rest of the statement, I refuse to entertain childish nonsense and personal attacks. Thanks for the offer. Can we get back to discussing the i3 now?

 

[essaunders]

I like that you can get both DC fast charging and a range extender in the i3. If the DC charging network is there, you can use it and support it. If not, you aren't stuck. Inconvenienced, perhaps, by needing to gas up every hour or so, but you can get where you need to go.

 

[adric22]

It was 75 miles from my house in San Diego to Irvine, where I stopped at the ChargePoint station at Marriott Courtyard Irvine Spectrum. There are two Nissan / Sumitomo built chargers there. Neither was taken, nor did anybody show up to use them while I was there. I'm going to call that "not crowded".

That's nice for you. But not everyone has had that experience. I have personally, on several occasions, had the experience of driving up to a charge station to find it ICE'd or broken. Actually, I'd almost welcome seeing one in use. But that is rarely the case around here. Fortunately, in all of those situations I've been able to find an alternate place to charge.

Sadly, I think the charging infrastructure in Dallas/Ft.Worth has come to a halt. For a while we were getting a new station every few days. Now it is like every few months. So I realize it probably won't grow more for a while, maybe a few years. What's worse is that I recognize there are areas in the USA that have zero public charging infrastructure. What do you tell those people when they need to drive more than the range of their battery?

I think it is very short sighted of people to be such an EV purist that they dismiss PHEVs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So, you support my statement. You chose gasoline over supporting electric vehicle infrastructure because of cost (which I stated) and convenience. Yes, it's tough to break the habit of 100,000 public oil dispensing stations.

... for the rest of the statement, I refuse to entertain childish nonsense and personal attacks. Thanks for the offer. Can we get back to discussing the i3 now?

I've learned that the guy who throws the first jab in an Internet brawl (you) are the first to get self righteous and indignant, and just add to the attack. I rarely see that play any other way.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It was 75 miles from my house in San Diego to Irvine, where I stopped at the ChargePoint station at Marriott Courtyard Irvine Spectrum. There are two Nissan / Sumitomo built chargers there. Neither was taken, nor did anybody show up to use them while I was there. I'm going to call that "not crowded".

...I think it is very short sighted of people to be such an EV purist that they dismiss PHEVs.

The issue wasn't hybrid cars are bad as much as the outright statement that DC public charging is "bad". We just fundamently disagree. Next topic.

 

[TomMoloughney]

John Higham an i3 REX owner did a pretty good job of explaining his thoughts on the whole i3 REx situation, and why he thinks it should be changed. He's going to do a part 2 next week after he drives from the SF Bay area to Tahoe and the 7,000+ ft Donner Summit. It's pretty long, but a good read:

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-i3-rex-one-owners-thoughts-on-bevx.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

John Higham an i3 REX owner did a pretty good job of explaining his thoughts on the whole i3 REx situation, and why he thinks it should be changed. He's going to do a part 2 next week after he drives from the SF Bay area to Tahoe and the 7,000+ ft Donner Summit. It's pretty long, but a good read:

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-i3-rex-one-owners-thoughts-on-bevx.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tom, thanks to both you and John for that; it puts numbers to what was already apparent through both basic reasoning and experience here in the Bay Area, where a REX's inability to maintain safe speed over the Highway 17 grade between Silicon Valley and Santa Cruz after having depleted the battery driving to it from Contra Costa county was first noticed and mentioned on the myBMWi3 forum. Since this is an 1,800 + ft. climb from sea level, John's analysis make it obvious why the REx was unable to maintain safe speed.

One thing, though. John states that the i3REx counts as a BEVx, but as I read the BEVx requirements the i3REx failed to meet it, as the range on the REx (78 miles) is greater than the AER (72 miles), even with the (stupid) 1/2 gallon smaller tank. My understanding is that CARB classified the i3REx in the same TZEV category as the Volt, and that being the case, any regulatory justification for crippling the REx by not allowing a hold mode and shrinking the tank is gone. Is that your understanding?

The likelihood of there being conflicts for HOV lane/Bridge or Congestion toll areas etc. for PHEVs and the like when they aren't running on electricity (forcing them to do so whenever driving in an urban area is almost certainly the intent behind the CARB reg) was foreseen some years back, and the suggested solution was to require a forward-facing, tamper-proof light on the dash or similar (that wouldn't reflect into the driver's eyes) that would show toll takers or cameras when the car was running on the battery; alternatively, you could send this info to the toll transponders in wide use. I imagine the difficulty is making the thing tamper-proof, given that i3REx owners are already hacking the car to provide a hold mode. I'd think that hacking a 'running on battery' signal, whether used to illuminate a light or sent to a transponder, would be a lot easier.

 

[TomMoloughney]

John Higham an i3 REX owner did a pretty good job of explaining his thoughts on the whole i3 REx situation, and why he thinks it should be changed. He's going to do a part 2 next week after he drives from the SF Bay area to Tahoe and the 7,000+ ft Donner Summit. It's pretty long, but a good read:

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-i3-rex-one-owners-thoughts-on-bevx.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tom, thanks to both you and John for that; it puts numbers to what was already apparent through both basic reasoning and experience here in the Bay Area, where a REX's inability to maintain safe speed over the Highway 17 grade between Silicon Valley and Santa Cruz after having depleted the battery driving to it from Contra Costa county was first noticed and mentioned on the myBMWi3 forum. Since this is an 1,800 + ft. climb from sea level, John's analysis make it obvious why the REx was unable to maintain safe speed.

One thing, though. John states that the i3REx counts as a BEVx, but as I read the BEVx requirements the i3REx failed to meet it, as the range on the REx (78 miles) is greater than the AER (72 miles), even with the (stupid) 1/2 gallon smaller tank. My understanding is that CARB classified the i3REx in the same TZEV category as the Volt, and that being the case, any regulatory justification for crippling the REx by not allowing a hold mode and shrinking the tank is gone. Is that your understanding?

The likelihood of there being conflicts for HOV lane/Bridge or Congestion toll areas etc. for PHEVs and the like when they aren't running on electricity (forcing them to do so whenever driving in an urban area is almost certainly the intent behind the CARB reg) was foreseen some years back, and the suggested solution was to require a forward-facing, tamper-proof light on the dash or similar (that wouldn't reflect into the driver's eyes) that would show toll takers or cameras when the car was running on the battery; alternatively, you could send this info to the toll transponders in wide use. I imagine the difficulty is making the thing tamper-proof, given that i3REx owners are already hacking the car to provide a hold mode. I imagine that hacking a 'running on battery' signal, whether used to illuminate a light or sent to a transponder, would be a lot easier.

The i3 was indeed classified as a BEVx vehicle. You may have been confused by some articles that were published that said the opposite but were proven wrong. That is indeed the crux of the issue, BMW highly values that certification. Obviously, the best solution for the consumer would be to remove the restrictions and allow the REx to function as it does in Europe and there would never be any issue. However that doesn't seem like it will happen any time soon but, BMW is indeed working on a solution. It's going to take a couple months but there will be a software modification which will allow the REx to come on early if you need it. The only catch is you need to use the NAV to have it work. If you enter a destination (say Santa Cruz) the car will calculate that it cannot make it without reduced power so it will then turn the REx on early so it holds a higher state of charge to make the trip. No, this isn't as good as a manual hold, but let's see how well it works first before it is condemned. It should be ready in a couple months. That being said, I have over 11,000 miles on my REx, and have never had it go into reduced power mode. The REx works perfect for me as long as I keep it under 75mph while it's in REx mode. Even cursing at 75mph it has plenty of power to have bursts up to 90mph and climb hills if needed. The only issue are long, sustained climbs at highway speeds, which are more of an issue in California than here in NJ. One way or another, I believe this is going to get sorted out and these issues will be resolved. The people that live in areas that need to do frequent climbs like this need to know they can safely do so when they need to.