Official BMW i3 thread

[Boomer23]

Title: Review From the Track: BMW i3 Gets Driven to the Limit by Pro Driver – I Ride Shotgun (w/video)

http://insideevs.com/review-from-the-track-bmw-i3-gets-driven-to-the-limit-by-pro-driver-i-ride-shotgun-wvideo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty impressive article.

I'm certainly impressed.

Heck, I'm impressed that there will be a semi-affordable EV available from a company that demostrates that they even think about the words "EV" and "performance"'in the same sentence. Nissan may show performance concepts, but where is a realistic producable concept? Instead, they reduced the torque on the 2013 LEAF motor and took away some of its pop. Someone will bring up the famous torque number on the Spark EV, but who's seen Chevy put one on a track? The Fiat talks sporty, but it's slow and some examples have had serious torque steer. And again, where is the track day footage?

I'm impressed that BMW still thinks sport, even with their city car.

 

[GRA]

Title: Review From the Track: BMW i3 Gets Driven to the Limit by Pro Driver – I Ride Shotgun (w/video)

http://insideevs.com/review-from-the-track-bmw-i3-gets-driven-to-the-limit-by-pro-driver-i-ride-shotgun-wvideo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty impressive article.

I'm certainly impressed.

Heck, I'm impressed that there will be a semi-affordable EV available from a company that demostrates that they even think about the words "EV" and "performance"'in the same sentence. Nissan may show performance concepts, but where is a realistic producable concept? Instead, they reduced the torque on the 2013 LEAF motor and took away some of its pop. Someone will bring up the famous torque number on the Spark EV, but who's seen Chevy put one on a track? The Fiat talks sporty, but it's slow and some examples have had serious torque steer. And again, where is the track day footage?

I'm impressed that BMW still thinks sport, even with their city car.

The question, of course, is how is all this track performance relevant to an city car traveling over cratered, congested urban streets? Not much, I'd say. Much as I like to drive a car fast on twisty roads (a friend's modified M3 convertible was the first car I could say had ultimate limits that unquestionably exceeded my own), so much of this seems to be excess to the job this car is designed to do. I'll certainly take the opportunity for a test drive, but I just can't see the value relative to the Spark.

 

[Boomer23]

I'll certainly take the opportunity for a test drive, but I just can't see the value relative to the Spark.

I've driven both, and I think you'll find that it's all about what you're looking for in the car. You might well be extremely satisfied with the Spark, and I might not. Aside from being wicked quick, I'm also looking for a faster on board charger, more features like parking sensors as well as a rear view cam, collision warnings, more interior space, better displays and improved interior materials. I also value a clean sheet design over a retrofit.

So the Spark is not on my list. Those features might mean little to you or not be worth the cost, and the Spark might be perfect. We're so lucky to have the choices.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I am sorry, I don't get it. Why would I pay $10K more for the i3 that has the same range as the Leaf and one that is effectively a two door car and seats 4? For the extra zippy performance and few bells and whistles and a BMW tax ?

I will be closely looking at any 24 month lease they may offer if it is anything more than $250-$280/month with no down payment I don't see the point.

 

[surfingslovak]

We're so lucky to have the choices.

Indeed, this has always been my motto as well. It's good to have choices, and to see more competition in the EV market. Not only it helps bring about the sea change we need, it also validates the efforts and investment in new mobility. I, for one, hope that all the serious players (Nissan, Tesla, GM and BMW) are successful in their efforts to find customers, and that they meet or exceed their sales projections.

Title: Review From the Track: BMW i3 Gets Driven to the Limit by Pro Driver – I Ride Shotgun (w/video)

http://insideevs.com/review-from-the-track-bmw-i3-gets-driven-to-the-limit-by-pro-driver-i-ride-shotgun-wvideo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty impressive article.

I'm certainly impressed.

It's worth noting that Chris Neff is a MINI-E pioneer and ActiveE electronaut. I'm not sure if he needed any introduction, but in case you were wondering, he is a marketing professional and an all-around nice guy. You can meet him in the BMW i3 Facebook group, where he is a frequent contributor.

 

[ELROY]

Title: Review From the Track: BMW i3 Gets Driven to the Limit by Pro Driver – I Ride Shotgun (w/video)

http://insideevs.com/review-from-the-track-bmw-i3-gets-driven-to-the-limit-by-pro-driver-i-ride-shotgun-wvideo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty impressive article.

I'm certainly impressed.

Heck, I'm impressed that there will be a semi-affordable EV available from a company that demostrates that they even think about the words "EV" and "performance"'in the same sentence. Nissan may show performance concepts, but where is a realistic producable concept? Instead, they reduced the torque on the 2013 LEAF motor and took away some of its pop. Someone will bring up the famous torque number on the Spark EV, but who's seen Chevy put one on a track? The Fiat talks sporty, but it's slow and some examples have had serious torque steer. And again, where is the track day footage?

I'm impressed that BMW still thinks sport, even with their city car.

The question, of course, is how is all this track performance relevant to an city car traveling over cratered, congested urban streets? Not much, I'd say. Much as I like to drive a car fast on twisty roads (a friend's modified M3 convertible was the first car I could say without a doubt had ultimate limits that unquestionably exceeded my own), so much of this seems to be excess to the job this car is designed to do. I'll certainly take the opportunity for a test drive, but I just can't see the value relative to the Spark.

Wow. The Spark I test drove had torque steer. Spun its tires with little acceleration. And quite frankly, my Nissan LEAF felt so much better after stepping out of the Spark. The acceleration of the Spark on the highway was nothing special. And I think 0-30mph, the LEAF is just as quick. The Spark also felt cheap. and more cramped than the i3. The i3 on the other hand felt solid. No matter how hard I accelerated, I could not get the rear tires to chirp. Yet we know this thing is quicker than the Spark. No comparison really. And for those who wonder what's the point of performance in the city. That environment is probably where you would have the most fun accelerating. Unless you have a ton of HP, most cars don't have exciting acceleration above 70mph anyways. Most of the roads around my city are smooth and well maintained. No problem enjoying tons of HP around here.

 

[RegGuheert]

...it would seem to me that the REx option would be ideally suited to your occasional long trips since performance is not overly critical.

Well, I guess that's how you define both "performance" and "critical".

Check out the video of the road to the nearest (55 mph limit) highway.

In the beautiful hills just outside Redding, CA are some of the most awesome canyons to carve. Check your Google satelite image of Oak Run, CA and see the twisties down the hill to State Hwy 299...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVqPlQwZ-OA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The ~300 lbs and $4,000 of ICE/BEVx ballast I'd have to carry would significantly degrade the driving experience on the ~ 90% of my trips on roads like that one, as well as the BEV range and efficiency every time I took it out on the road.

Sorry. I didn't realize that part of your drive was at the end. I thought that was in the middle of the drive.

 

[GRA]

I'm certainly impressed.

Heck, I'm impressed that there will be a semi-affordable EV available from a company that demostrates that they even think about the words "EV" and "performance"'in the same sentence. Nissan may show performance concepts, but where is a realistic producable concept? Instead, they reduced the torque on the 2013 LEAF motor and took away some of its pop. Someone will bring up the famous torque number on the Spark EV, but who's seen Chevy put one on a track? The Fiat talks sporty, but it's slow and some examples have had serious torque steer. And again, where is the track day footage?

I'm impressed that BMW still thinks sport, even with their city car.

The question, of course, is how is all this track performance relevant to an city car traveling over cratered, congested urban streets? Not much, I'd say. Much as I like to drive a car fast on twisty roads (a friend's modified M3 convertible was the first car I could say without a doubt had ultimate limits that unquestionably exceeded my own), so much of this seems to be excess to the job this car is designed to do. I'll certainly take the opportunity for a test drive, but I just can't see the value relative to the Spark.

Wow. The Spark I test drove had torque steer. Spun its tires with little acceleration. And quite frankly, my Nissan LEAF felt so much better after stepping out of the Spark. The acceleration of the Spark on the highway was nothing special. And I think 0-30mph, the LEAF is just as quick. The Spark also felt cheap. and more cramped than the i3. The i3 on the other hand felt solid. No matter how hard I accelerated, I could not get the rear tires to chirp. Yet we know this thing is quicker than the Spark. No comparison really. And for those who wonder what's the point of performance in the city. That environment is probably where you would have the most fun accelerating. Unless you have a ton of HP, most cars don't have exciting acceleration above 70mph anyways. Most of the roads around my city are smooth and well maintained. No problem enjoying tons of HP around here.

Sure, the Spark won't be as nice a car as the i3, I've said as much. I've also said that I don't see that the i3 is $15k nicer than the Spark, and that $15k only buys you about 0.5 sec. shorter 0-60 time; a Spark will beat any other BEV out there in the stoplight drag race, other than a Tesla (IIRR that Tony did some drags against one with his RAV4, and the Spark won). And then there's the 500e, assuming you can get one, which R&T recently named best EV (Tesla S would have won it last year, but they didn't have this category):

http://www.roadandtrack.com/bestof2013/best-cars-of-2013-4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you are good with 3 doors and a 2+2, the 500e is a hoot. It doesn't have the Spark's accel, but may be better in many other categories, although the higher price hurts.

The Spark's biggest disadvantage versus any of the others is its 3.3 kW charger, and thus its total reliance on CCS for longer trips.

 

[surfingslovak]

I've also said that I don't see that the i3 is $15k nicer than the Spark, and that $15k only buys you about 0.5 sec. shorter 0-60 time; a Spark will beat any other BEV out there in the stoplight drag race, other than a Tesla (IIRR that Tony did some drags against one with his RAV4, and the Spark won).

Guy, as ELROY said above, it appears that you are seeing it very one-dimensionally. Road handling is not just about the 0-60 mph time and drag racing. Whether the i3 is worth the sticker is one thing, and how it compares against a conversion EV derived from the Daewoo Matiz platform is another. Personally, I cannot believe that you would attempt such a comparison in all seriousness, and apparently without having driven either vehicle.

That's not to knock the Chevy Spark, I have seen several of them on the road, and I'm glad that GM has produced it. That said, I still remember some of the very unflattering comments on this forum, when the Spark was still a concept, and all we knew about it was what one could read in the press. What I mean to say with this is that we can be a tough crowd. As I already mentioned, I'm glad that you like the Spark, and that it's doing well.

I would hope that the i3 will do well too, and that BMW has correctly assessed what their prospective customers will want to see in the vehicle. I drove German cars nearly exclusively all my life, and although I had some doubts, the second test drive convinced me that the i3 has great road handling. I was amazed by the stiffness of the chassis.

And then there's the 500e, assuming you can get one, which R&T recently named best EV (Tesla S would have won it last year, but they didn't have this category):

http://www.roadandtrack.com/bestof2013/best-cars-of-2013-4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for referencing this. I passed it along to someone interested in the 500e. Although I love this EV, when I test drove it in Laguna Seca, I found the drive uninspiring. If I didn't have the ActiveE and didn't want another LEAF, I think I would be looking at the Honda Fit, if I could get one, and the Fiat 500e. In Europe, I would be looking at the Renault ZOE and the i3, which is on sale there now, but has a considerable wait time.

While the range of the LEAF is a very good fit for our needs, my view of what the market needs has changed since we purchased it. For a wide variety of reasons, I now feel that 125 miles of EPA range can comfortably fit into the vast majority of multi-car households within the U.S. Convenience and flexibility are tops among the reasons, but weather is another significant factor.

Agreed! I think the minimum viable product will feature about 30 kWh battery capacity in the next generation of EVs. When you look at the MINI-E field trial, virtually everyone was happy with the 35 kWh pack this EV had. If I recall correctly, the range on LA4 cycle was about 150 miles. When looking at the i3 and the ZOE, it looks like EVs could get more efficient too, which could help save some weight, and optimize the size of the battery pack for the target range of 120-130 miles EPA.

 

[JeremyW]

I've driven the Spark, 500e, and the i3. The spark is much smaller (to me at 6'4" anyway) than the other two but it's a fast little car. It handles ok but is no BMW. Overall handling goes to the i3 hands down and I'd say that it's worth the $15k more than the spark. I have a feeling that if I had an extended test drive over a few days of commuting with the i3, I'd have a really hard time going back to the leaf. It drives as well as it is ugly! I also really like the interior of the i3.

Looks: 500e (needs more regen, CHAdeMO or CCS, and L2 on the front of the car)
Performance: i3 (needs a new nose and L2 on the front of the car)
Value: Spark (needs faster L2 badly)

Put the spark or i3 motor in the 500e (or better yet give it rear wheel drive) with gobs of adjustable regen and I'd fall in love. I really like the 500e for some strange reason. Perhaps its because of my squished living conditions at the moment.

 

[surfingslovak]

I really like the 500e for some strange reason. Perhaps its because of my squished living conditions at the moment.

Didn't you bring the ICE 500 to Laguna Seca earlier this year?

 

[JeremyW]

I really like the 500e for some strange reason. Perhaps its because of my squished living conditions at the moment.

Didn't you bring the ICE 500 to Laguna Seca earlier this year?

Yup! I've tried to rent the 500 for other things but haven't gotten lucky at the Enterprise counter.

 

[GRA]

I've also said that I don't see that the i3 is $15k nicer than the Spark, and that $15k only buys you about 0.5 sec. shorter 0-60 time; a Spark will beat any other BEV out there in the stoplight drag race, other than a Tesla (IIRR that Tony did some drags against one with his RAV4, and the Spark won).

Guy, as ELROY said above, it appears that you are seeing it very one-dimensionally. Road handling is not just about the 0-60 mph time and drag racing. Whether the i3 is worth the sticker is one thing, and how it compares against a conversion EV derived from the Daewoo Matiz platform is another. Personally, I cannot believe that you would attempt such a comparison in all seriousness, and apparently without having driven either vehicle.

I have driven the Spark, and posted a review of it in that thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6198&start=670" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I'm well aware that 'Road handling is not just about the 0-60 mph time and drag racing'; actually, handling has nothing whatsoever to do with acceleration, and AOTBE, I'll take a car that's well balanced in both performance and handling over one that's excellent in one and so-so in the other. I enjoyed my Datsun 2000 Roadster for that reason, crude copy of a '60s British roadster that it was, and if I'd have fit in a 1st gen Miata would have enjoyed that too. I had a blast in a 1st gen Honda Civic, and the Mini (original and BMW) are just as much fun for the same reason. Given my druthers an S2000 would be my choice for an affordable roadster now, although for pure looks I'd take an Oxford green metallic Z3 with a brown top in a heartbeat.

And how could I possibly be accused of seeing it one-dimensionally, when I'm comparing price versus performance versus intended driving environment, rather than just 0-60, or skidpad g, or number of doors or MSRP?

That's not to knock the Chevy Spark, I have seen several of them on the road, and I'm glad that GM has produced it. That said, I still remember some of the very unflattering comments on this forum, when the Spark was still a concept, and all we knew about it was what one could read in the press. What I mean to say with this is that we can be a tough crowd. As I already mentioned, I'm glad that you like the Spark, and that it's doing well.

I would hope that the i3 will do well too, and that BMW has correctly assessed what their prospective customers will want to see in the vehicle. I drove German cars nearly exclusively all my life, and although I had some doubts, the second test drive convinced me that the i3 has great road handling. I was amazed by the stiffness of the chassis.

As I've said, I fully expect the i3 to be better than the Spark; for $15k more it had better be. My issue is whether any sub-100 mile EPA city car, no matter how good it may be, can justify a price increment of $10-$15k over a reasonably competent competitor, or a price upwards of $40k. To me, it can't. Now, if you were to _give_ me an i3, then sure, I'd probably prefer it over a Spark or 500e; I'll let you know once I drive one, although any car I would consider had better have intuitive controls, and so far my experience with iDrive hasn't been particularly positive. I'm not a fan of touchscreens, menus or toggle-up-down controls in cars, especially for HVAC.

And then there's the 500e, assuming you can get one, which R&T recently named best EV (Tesla S would have won it last year, but they didn't have this category):

http://www.roadandtrack.com/bestof2013/best-cars-of-2013-4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for referencing this. I passed it along to someone interested in the 500e. Although I love this EV, when I test drove it in Laguna Seca, I found the drive uninspiring. If I didn't have the ActiveE and didn't want another LEAF, I think I would be looking at the Honda Fit, if I could get one, and the Fiat 500e. In Europe, I would be looking at the Renault ZOE and the i3, which is on sale there now, but has a considerable wait time.

For me, I just wouldn't consider any BEV that lacks a liquid-cooled TMS, until a car without one demonstrates that the battery can tolerate heat over a period of years, although I have high hopes for the Fit's Li-Titanate chemistry. The Fit wins on utility, the 500e hands-down on looks, and in Europe I'd definitely be considering the Zoe.

 

[surfingslovak]

And how could I possibly be accused of seeing it one-dimensionally, when I'm comparing price versus performance versus intended driving environment, rather than just 0-60, or skidpad g, or number of doors or MSRP?

Thanks for clarifying that. I would recommend that you test drove the i3, if you had a chance. And to be clear, I'm not accusing you of anything, even it that's how it might have been interpreted. I'm just surprised how anyone could honestly compare the Spark to the i3. You are certainly not the only one who has drawn this parallel. We should have an i3 at the January 18 joint BayLEAFs/EAASV meeting at HP in Palo Alto.

My issue is whether any sub-100 mile EPA city car, no matter how good it may be, can justify a price increment of $10-$15k over a reasonably competent competitor, or a price upwards of $40k. To me, it can't.

Well, we are about to find out. BMW priced the base model much closer to its relative EV peers in Europe, but took a different approach in the US market. They apparently think that different optioning will justify the price difference, and most prospects will be OK with the range. Time will tell. If you asked me, I would prefer more range over some options. Alternatively, I would pay a premium for it too. That's the reason why I'm considering the REx. Looking at what you wrote above, you might tend to favor more basic packaging, and have an appreciation of good performance and road handling. If that's the case, and BMW offered a base model similar to the one in Europe, with an MSRP in mid to low $30K, then the argument for Spark EV you offered up above would be no longer worth debating.

Now, if you were to _give_ me an i3, then sure, I'd probably prefer it over a Spark or 500e; I'll let you know once I drive one, although any car I would consider had better have intuitive controls, and so far my experience with iDrive hasn't been particularly positive. I'm not a fan of touchscreens, menus or toggle-up-down controls in cars, especially for HVAC.

The i3 rides very well. If you read Chris' write-up on InsideEVs, that gives you a good idea. The unconventional design aspects make it a very unique EV. Ride quality, efficiency, connected services and comfort seem to have received more emphasis than other aspects. Whether that's something one would weigh over other priorities depends on individual circumstances and preferences.

For me, I just wouldn't consider any BEV that lacks a liquid-cooled TMS, until a car without one demonstrates that the battery can tolerate heat over a period of years, although I have high hopes for the Fit's Li-Titanate chemistry. The Fit wins on utility, the 500e hands-down on looks, and in Europe I'd definitely be considering the Zoe.

The MINI-E did spectacularly well in this regard, but we are not sure what the exact chemistry was. The cells were supplied by Molicel. I would tend to agree otherwise, with the caveat that LiFePO can do quite well in the field without liquid cooling. Also, and perhaps more interestingly, there appear to be several ZOE drivers in Europe, who might be looking at the i3 very closely. This would confirm that these two EVs are being cross-shopped. LEAF drivers are typically not content with having less space when doing the initial evaluation. I don't know enough Spark drivers to say anything about their purchasing criteria.

 

[RegGuheert]

Well, we are about to find out. BMW priced the base model much closer to its relative EV peers in Europe, but took a different approach in the US market. They apparently think that different optioning will justify the price difference, and most prospects will be OK with the range. Time will tell. If you asked me, I would prefer more range over some options. Alternatively, I would pay a premium for it too. That's the reason why I'm considering the REx.

+1

To me, it appears that BMW-USA's marketing is being influenced more by CARB than by common sense. By limiting range extension to only be suitable for emergencies, I feel they have really limited the market potential for a vehicle which could otherwise be very well received in this country.

 

[TomMoloughney]

To me, it appears that BMW-USA's marketing is being influenced more by CARB than by common sense. By limiting range extension to only be suitable for emergencies, I feel they have really limited the market potential for a vehicle which could otherwise be very well received in this country.[/quote

The range extender will have it's limits, but suitable for emergencies only would not be an accurate description. You'll be able to do just about anything with the car in range extender mode, not everything, but just about everything. There is no sense arguing here and now what it can and cannot do because nobody can back it up with actual data or personal experience. I've driven in REx cars and I can assure you the "emergency only" classification is not nearly accurate (Although that term can vary from person to person I suppose). Within a few months the information will be out there, many journalists will have driven them and we'll have videos of how it performs.

Of course you'll be able to overwhelm the range extender if you purposely try to do so (Broder it, lets say) but if you drive it properly, and understand how it works, you'll have no issue driving as long or as far as you need to when it's in REx mode, with the exception of extremely long mountain-climbs. It won't tow a 40 foot boat either. Horses for courses.

 

[GRA]

And how could I possibly be accused of seeing it one-dimensionally, when I'm comparing price versus performance versus intended driving environment, rather than just 0-60, or skidpad g, or number of doors or MSRP?

Thanks for clarifying that. I would recommend that you test drove the i3, if you had a chance.

Which I plan to do at the first opportunity, as previously stated. I enjoy test driving cars as much as the next person, even when the drive is much too short to get a real feel for the car.

And to be clear, I'm not accusing you of anything, even it that's how it might have been interpreted. I'm just surprised how anyone could honestly compare the Spark to the i3. You are certainly not the only one who has drawn this parallel. We should have an i3 at the January 18 joint BayLEAFs/EAASV meeting at HP in Palo Alto.

It's simple, the Spark gives say 80-90% of what the i3 gives you for 2/3rd of the price. The question is how much that last 10-20% is worth to you, or in this case how many customers in the U.S. will consider it value for money. If the decision were based purely on rational reasons the answer would be 'very few', but then if the majority of car buying decisions were so based we'd have a very different car industry from the one we have. I'm interested to see just how many people in the U.S. are willing to pay so much extra for that last 10-20%, not forgetting the 'value' of the propeller and kidneys.

My issue is whether any sub-100 mile EPA city car, no matter how good it may be, can justify a price increment of $10-$15k over a reasonably competent competitor, or a price upwards of $40k. To me, it can't.

Well, we are about to find out. BMW priced the base model much closer to its relative EV peers in Europe, but took a different approach in the US market. They apparently think that different optioning will justify the price difference, and most prospects will be OK with the range. Time will tell. If you asked me, I would prefer more range over some options. Alternatively, I would pay a premium for it too. That's the reason why I'm considering the REx. Looking at what you wrote above, you might tend to favor more basic packaging, and have an appreciation of good performance and road handling. If that's the case, and BMW offered a base model similar to the one in Europe, with an MSRP in mid to low $30K, then the argument for Spark EV you offered up above would be no longer worth debating.

That's close to it, although for what I need a car for, range is king, more important than any other major feature let alone the luxury bells and whistles. I recognize that I am not the typical consumer - I'd happily accept manual windows and the like to get more range for the same price, and I still don't understand why BMW came out with a BEV with essentially the same range as every sub-$35k BEV available. That's one of the Spark's major advantages for me - Tony's test demonstrated that its real-world range was at least 10 miles more than the LEAF's in freeway driving.

Now, if you were to _give_ me an i3, then sure, I'd probably prefer it over a Spark or 500e; I'll let you know once I drive one, although any car I would consider had better have intuitive controls, and so far my experience with iDrive hasn't been particularly positive. I'm not a fan of touchscreens, menus or toggle-up-down controls in cars, especially for HVAC.

The i3 rides very well. If you read Chris' write-up on InsideEVs, that gives you a good idea. The unconventional design aspects make it a very unique EV. Ride quality, efficiency, connected services and comfort seem to have received more emphasis than other aspects. Whether that's something one would weigh over other priorities depends on individual circumstances and preferences.

Right. To me, 'connected services' is just another way of saying 'distracted driver', and I refuse to use such while driving. Of course, given my increasing deafness that's largely a moot point, but if any lawmaker were to suggest imposition of the death penalty for using a cell phone while driving, I'd be an enthusiastic supporter OTOH, I recognize that if the automakers hope to sell cars to a largely uninterested Gen Y, they have to provide this sort of thing. Which is why I pray that autonomous cars arrive sooner rather than later, lest the millennials first kill themselves and the rest of us off while talking/texting/tweeting. :roll:

For me, I just wouldn't consider any BEV that lacks a liquid-cooled TMS, until a car without one demonstrates that the battery can tolerate heat over a period of years, although I have high hopes for the Fit's Li-Titanate chemistry. The Fit wins on utility, the 500e hands-down on looks, and in Europe I'd definitely be considering the Zoe.

The MINI-E did spectacularly well in this regard, but we are not sure what the exact chemistry was. The cells were supplied by Molicel. I would tend to agree otherwise, with the caveat that LiFePO can do quite well in the field without liquid cooling. Also, and perhaps more interestingly, there appear to be several ZOE drivers in Europe, who might be looking at the i3 very closely. This would confirm that these two EVs are being cross-shopped. LEAF drivers are typically not content with having less space when doing the initial evaluation. I don't know enough Spark drivers to say anything about their purchasing criteria.

I'm a big fan of LiFePO4 for its heat tolerance, especially with liquid-cooled TMS, which is one reason why i think the Spark is far better suited to be sold universally in the U.S. than the LEAF is. But LiFePO4 loses more capacity (temporarily) when cold, so you've got to provide heating as well. And Li-Titanate anodes have the best cycle life and widest SoC range, but combined with LiFePO4 cathodes have the lowest specific energy and density. Given the choice, I'll take longevity and durability over maximum performance.

At the moment, there isn't a single BEV now or near-term that's meets my major criteria, never mind the minor ones. I'd like the LEAF's cargo space (so I can sleep in the back, carry my bike or my dive gear etc.), but better handling and acceleration, AWD for choice, fast L2 charging plus QC, considerably more range, a battery system that I don't have to baby that will last for many years, and all at a price that doesn't make me snort in derision. There's a long way to go.

 

[RegGuheert]

The range extender will have it's limits, but suitable for emergencies only would not be an accurate description. You'll be able to do just about anything with the car in range extender mode, not everything, but just about everything. There is no sense arguing here and now what it can and cannot do because nobody can back it up with actual data or personal experience. I've driven in REx cars and I can assure you the "emergency only" classification is not nearly accurate (Although that term can vary from person to person I suppose). Within a few months the information will be out there, many journalists will have driven them and we'll have videos of how it performs.

But we still won't know at that time whether using the car in that fashion is ill-advised. IIUC, there is no hold mode on the range extender in the U.S. and it does not come on until the SOC is 6%. So the question I have is whether repeated trips down to 6% SOC will harm the battery.

Note that Chevrolet has put that limit at about 20%. Granted, the i3 has more range than the Chevy Volt, comparable to the Nissan LEAF. And the Nissan LEAF can go down to about 4% before the battery is disconnected. But I will contend that LEAF drivers (Tony Williams excepted!) do not regularly approach this SOC due to the shear inconvenience involved with a shutdown.

I contend that a hold mode would go a long way toward allowing an i3 owner to enjoy the freedom of the extender without the potential penalty of premature battery degradation.

 

[surfingslovak]

The first month of sales typically means little, and even the first year might not be a reliable indicator of actual demand. That said, I asked Mark Kane of InsideEVs if they had any numbers for the i3, and he responded with this article:

BMW i3 Sales Exceed 400 Units in Debut Month of November in Europe

 

[TomMoloughney]

But we still won't know at that time whether using the car in that fashion is ill-advised. IIUC, there is no hold mode on the range extender in the U.S. and it does not come on until the SOC is 6%. So the question I have is whether repeated trips down to 6% SOC will harm the battery.

Note that Chevrolet has put that limit at about 20%. Granted, the i3 has more range than the Chevy Volt, comparable to the Nissan LEAF. And the Nissan LEAF can go down to about 4% before the battery is disconnected. But I will contend that LEAF drivers (Tony Williams excepted!) do not regularly approach this SOC due to the shear inconvenience involved with a shutdown.

I contend that a hold mode would go a long way toward allowing an i3 owner to enjoy the freedom of the extender without the potential penalty of premature battery degradation.

I'm not arguing with you about having a hold mode. It would make the car better without a doubt. It won't have it tough. I'm certain it won't be long before there is a hack for it, but the car will not have it in the US, period.

The question about frequent deep discharges is a good one. When the i3 is at zero percent(usable) it still has about a 10% lower end buffer, so you are really at 15% to 16%. Plus, how frequently do you expect to need it? I see you are a LEAF owner. Lets say for argument sake the i3 and LEAF have the exact same range. How often do you dip your SOC below 6%, where the REx would turn on? I think if the answer is very frequently, you probably shouldn't have bought the LEAF and shouldn't get an i3 REx. However for those that need some extra range a couple times a month, or just don't want to deal with the white knuckle RA experience every now and then when you are pushing the limit -or arrive at a public charger to find it inoperable or blocked, I think this will be a good option. Not the perfect one, and an expensive one, but I think it will get more "butts in seats" of electric vehicles and that's the ultimate goal, because we all know once they get their first plug-in, they'll never go back!