OC register article - let's tell half the story

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go for it.
that article was ridiculous.
Aside from all the wrongheadedness about the utility and range, he made all those half-told arguments about how electricity is dirty and from coal, and forgot to mention that crude oil has extraction, refining, transportation and other pollution costs, and that is before it gets hauled as gasoline to your gas station.
it doesnt grow on trees and fall into your ICE's gas tank.

I sent Mark and email. I dont want to be in the Register.
 
It seemed to be more a rant about tax credits for EVs than the vehicles themselves. Popular topic right now with the tight government budgets.
Anyway I agree that what ever the agenda it was poorly researched.
 
I read about half of the article before I gave up. He just doesn't get it. The problem with EVs today has little to do with the EV itself, it is that there's very little charging infrastructure, but that can change. If there were very few gas stations, ICE cars would have the same problem. As a matter of fact, the problem would be worse, unless everyone had gas tanks at their houses to refill their cars.

Right now, due to this lack of charging infrastructure, one either has to stay close to home (which most people do more often than they think), or one has to carefully plan their route between the few charging opportunities which are available.

History is full of (often) important people who were not able to see the future too clearly in their crystal balls, such as:

"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of DEC
 
smkettner said:
It seemed to be more a rant about tax credits for EVs than the vehicles themselves. Popular topic right now with the tight government budgets.
Anyway I agree that what ever the agenda it was poorly researched.

absolutely. The Register is one of the Freedom Newspaper chain, the same group that refers to public schools as the tax-supported schools. They did that for years, and may still be doing it.
Landsbaum, who used to work at the LATimes, has obviously drunk the Kool Aid.
 
I wrote him the following email:

Hi,
I'm almost speechless. I've never read such an uninformed, one sided piece of writing getting published. I can quote you portions of John Hofmeister's (you're probably unaware that he is former President of Shell Oil North America) book "Why We Hate the Oil Companies", or Alan Greenspan's (Economist and former head of the Federal Reserve Bank) book "The Age of Turbulence", or Seth Fletcher's (Senior Editor at Popular Science magazine) book "Bottled Lightning - Superbattereis, Electric Cars, and the New Lithium Economy". All of which would say you are probably one of the least informed people regarding Electric Vehicles.
I own a Nissan LEAF. It satifies 90% of our driving needs. It is powered by photovoltaic panels on our roof (if you want to have a discussion on that, I'd be happy to oblige). It saves us about $200 per month in fuel costs and over the life of the vehicle is $7,000 less cost of ownership WITHOUT ANY SUBSIDY than the PT Cruiser we traded in. And that doesn't even include the oil changes, or filter chances or tune ups etc.
It is not worth my time to inform you of all of the counter arguements that true journalistic integrity should have caused you to investigate. Leave journalism up to true journalists. Write your opinion letters to the editor to be published on the editorial page, don't try to pass them off as journalistic reporting.
Bruce J. Becker
 
Writing the author and editor emails is great. But what about posting comments directly below the article? Isn't that effective as an immediate rebuke that everyone can read right away?
 
I plan to send the following reply to the editor. I'll give it a bit to see if there are any factual or source errors anyone can see.



After reading Mark Landbaum’s article “Future not now for electric cars”, there are only two reasonable conclusions that would explain the level of factual error contained therein: 1) he honestly knows absolutely nothing about what he decided to report, or 2) he willfully misrepresented fact after fact in order to convey a political point. So, may I ask, which is it? Several far-from-complete points:

1) The article continually harps on subsidies, ignoring the fact that 30+ BILLION per year is spent in long-term, ongoing gasoline/oil subsidies; Compare this to the short-term EV incentive: If it drives as much adoption of EVs as targeted - a long target of 1 million EVs by 2015 - it will have spent 7.5 billion over the course of 4 years, at which point it expires. Add to that the article’s much-maligned 2.4 billion, and you're almost up to 10B - ALMOST a THIRD of one year's oil subsidies.

2) The article repeatedly use quotes from political organizations to make points about technical capabilities; this would be illogical even if the points were correct.

3) I'm personally not dying to find out what using the A/C will do, I already know quite well. It's been 100-110 here 30 of the 42 days I've had my leaf. Still getting 50+ miles a day out of it, with some left over at the end of the day, and I'm only charging to 80%. A/C impact is minimal. Heater impact is more significant, by most estimates around 10%. There are NUMEROUS sources available where the author could have seen this tested. Either nearly no research was done, or facts were ignored in order to imply the opposite to further the author’s political viewpoints.

4) The co2 emissions numbers seem to be factually incorrect.
My leaf is getting 3.5 mpk or better (that's consumed at the meter vs. driven, so that accounts for all losses in the charger, car, acc, etc.), and published numbers for the volt are similar. In 2000, the US Average rate of co2 production was 1.35 lbs/kwh. http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/co2_report/co2report.html#table_1
In 2008, that had improved to 93% of the 2000 level, so 1.25 lbs/kwh.
http://205.254.135.24/oiaf/1605/ggrpt/carbon.html#electric
As such, even at current rates, co2 production per mile for the US average is under .36 lbs per EV mile and dropping.

Comparing that to gasoline: http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/420f05001.htm at 19.4 lbs/gallon, only vehicles 37mpg or better will be at the .53 lbs/mi you quoted. The US average is around 20mpg, meaning it’s well above your figure.

That's, at minimum, compared to new, efficient gas vehicles, that’s a reduction of over 30% in co2 emissions, much more in comparison to average vehicles.

And of course, you ignore the fact that these cars are being primarily targeted in regions where electricity production is much more renewable than the US average.


5) They are not "about twice as expensive as comparable gas-powered cars". Even if you do ignore the subsidy, the leaf is around $35k, and includes quite a few luxury features. Even if you took a base model hatchback versa and equipped it with matching options, it would be above $22k. When you then assume $3.70/gal gas and $0.10/kwh electricity (again national averages), and assume average driving (1k miles/month), even if you assume an efficient (35mpg) car, that's still a difference of $74/mo. The US average gas mileage, however, is still a relatively low 20mpg, and compared to that the difference is $155 per month. In other words, you'll save money in 5 years compared to the US average, and you'll pay an extra $8500 after 5 years as compared to a more efficient gas car..

But here's the kicker: that's if you IGNORE the EV subsidies, but keep the gasoline subsidies in place. As noted above, that's nonsensical considering that EV subsidies are a tiny fraction of gas subsidies. So, comparing apples to apples including BOTH subsidies equally, you could find a cheaper car with the same options, but not by much.

6) the batteries do not "drop dead in about 8 years". Both these vehicles actually include an 8 year battery warranty, and expect the range to be in the 70% range after that term. At that pace they could still be usable without exchange for well into the 15 year range. That's a similar usable lifetime to a gasoline engine.

7) Every leaf and every volt ever produced has been sold as quickly as it could be produced; there are still thousands of people waiting for cars. The manufacturers are producing them in a slow ramp-up. Citing those numbers as proof of low demand is an unsurprising, at this point, additional example of deception.


You might have had some good points in there about how the government handles its tax money. I couldn't tell, as it was buried under a mountain of lies and misdirection.
 
A year from now, when there are thousands of LEAFs zipping quietly down the streets, this guy is going to look like an idiot.

When some people are paying $4.00, $5.00, $6.00 for a gallon of gas and others are paying 3 cents per mile using electricity pretty much everyone is going to understand that electric cars should NOT be confined to "golf carts and bumper cars."

Over and over again I've heard LEAF owners say that they thought they would have to use their ICE cars more than it turned out. They are saying that yes, once or maybe twice a month they need to take a trip that will exceed the range the LEAF allows. That means that the LEAF turned out to be their MAIN car and the ICE vehicle is the backup.

The flood gates have been opened. It's time to either support EVs or get out of the way.


Mx5racer said:
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/electric-310154-volt-cars.html

He starts by saying that he likes electric vehicles, and ends up with only for use on the golf course.
With the government spending to help support and encourage the use of EV's, how much does this type of poor journalism cost in setbacks in opinion
 
Luft said:
Over and over again I've heard LEAF owners say that they thought they would have to use their ICE cars more than it turned out. They are saying that yes, once or maybe twice a month they need to take a trip that will exceed the range the LEAF allows. That means that the LEAF turned out to be their MAIN car and the ICE vehicle is the backup.


My backup ICE (2003 Chrysler mini-van) has sat so much, I'm worrying about the gas going bad. I probably will not be filling up the gas tank in the future, but instead, just putting in enough fresh gas for the day's planned driving. Also, it's good to get one of those cheap solar trickle battery charges (like the LEAF has) to keep the battery up.

I had planned to pick up my son, with his bicycle, from a town 40 miles away. Easy round trip with the LEAF, and the destination was near a charge point, so it could add a few miles during dinner there.

But, then three people wanted to go, plus pick up my son and his bike. If I the bike rack on, I would have still taken the LEAF. But, it was easier to take the big ICE. The limitation wasn't the fuel source, but the size of the car.

I will add to the discussion that, of course, this article is a political hatchet job designed to get you to squeal (and fill their paper print). Then other people will counter your comments. It's flamebait, and it seems to be working well.

I won't be responding.
 
Another item that the article doesn't mention is the price we are paying our military to stabilize the Middle East. I saw a CNN interview where Fareed Zacaria interviewed a recently retired admiral that was a member of the intelligence community while active. He commented that there were four reasons we were so heavily involved in Middle East peace and the first was OIL. The other three were more humanitarian reasons.

Anyway, I took the annual cost of our defense budget and divided it by our annual number of barrels of imported oil and came up with a figure of around $120 per barrel. Obviously, not all defense spending is just for oil stabilization and not all of a barrel of oil goes into gasoline, but it was an interesting exercise to see some relative magnitude of the cost. I'm sure some of you out there can come up with a much more accurate analysis.
 
I searched around and found the personal email to Mark and decided to send him the following email:

Dear Mark, I read you’re article in the Register about electric cars. I would ask that you take another look, your article implies many of the same assumptions I had years ago before taking a more in depth look, since the advent of li-ion batteries. I was recently so amazed at what I discovered researching this subject that I ended up buying the Nissan Leaf a few months ago. Turns out most Americans live within metropolitan or suburb areas and drive less than 40 miles each day and with a charging station in the garage, which I now have, it is very convenient to charge up. My family has a second car, so for us, it’s a great match for the bulk of our driving and the savings will practically make the car pay fore itself in just 10 years… and that’s just the first generation. Within just a few short years, the battery capacity is set to double. In my first month of driving the Leaf I drove the car 1,500 miles for $33 worth of electricity. The car has more instant torque than any other vehicle I’ve driven, making it very responsive. This new generation of batteries is unlike anything you’ve likely ever seen, they are a game changer. I would encourage you to actually go drive one, read the book "Bottled Lightning" and write another, more informed article.

Kind Regards,

George
 
Mark wrote me back:

Thanks for your comments.

Get back to me when the battery capacity doubles. They've been saying that for a century.

Also, how economical do you think your electric car would be without taxpayers underwriting your hobby?

I don't much care what other people drive, as long as they don't ram into me. What's offensive is being forced to subsidize other peoples' indulgences so they can feel green.

Thanks again for writing.

At your service in Christ . . .

Mark Landsbaum
Editorial Writer
Orange County Register

___________________________________________

I replied:

Mark, I appreciate you getting back to me so quickly. As for tax payer subsidy, there is nothing more subsidized than gasoline. Taxpayers pay an outlandish amount of money to pay for military operations that secure our oil interests, and our proud men and women who serve our country in the military pay with their lives. A short term subsidy to help this technology reach economy of scale is a very good investment of my taxes and it allows us the opportunity to generate the energy needed for the bulk of our transportation needs right here in the good old USA without sending money oversees to the middle east where certainly some of those funds end up right in the hands of terrorists!

Kind Regards,
George

oh, and PS, there is already an EV that gets over 200 miles to a charge and one coming next year that will get 300 miles to a charge.
 
I'm beginning to agree with some of the other posters' suggestion that we should not waste our breath on this guy based on his response to you.
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
Mark wrote me back:

Thanks for your comments.

Get back to me when the battery capacity doubles. They've been saying that for a century.

Also, how economical do you think your electric car would be without taxpayers underwriting your hobby?

I don't much care what other people drive, as long as they don't ram into me. What's offensive is being forced to subsidize other peoples' indulgences so they can feel green.

Thanks again for writing.

At your service in Christ . . .

Mark Landsbaum
Editorial Writer
Orange County Register

___________________________________________

I replied:

Mark, I appreciate you getting back to me so quickly. As for tax payer subsidy, there is nothing more subsidized than gasoline. Taxpayers pay an outlandish amount of money to pay for military operations that secure our oil interests, and our proud men and women who serve our country in the military pay with their lives. A short term subsidy to help this technology reach economy of scale is a very good investment of my taxes and it allows us the opportunity to generate the energy needed for the bulk of our transportation needs right here in the good old USA without sending money oversees to the middle east where certainly some of those funds end up right in the hands of terrorists!

Kind Regards,
George

oh, and PS, there is already an EV that gets over 200 miles to a charge and one coming next year that will get 300 miles to a charge.

Maybe your response should have been "What would Jesus drive?"
 
Wow! No doubt a right-wing, fundamentalist, douche!

Well, I've been invited to write a rebuttal for publication this coming weekend, though I have to keep it down to 500 words. Here it is:

As an electric vehicle owner, I found Mark Landsbaum’s narrow-minded editorial very disheartening. It pretty much ignores any positive aspects of EV ownership in favor of trotting out familiar, negatively-biased (and mostly incorrect), talking points.

So let’s take some of these and debunk them, just for giggles:

Electric vehicles can’t go very far.

Research shows that most Americans drive just 40 miles a day. My own car, the 2011 Nissan LEAF, is capable of 80-85 miles of highway speed driving before recharging, and that is with creature comforts like air conditioning.

I’ve been able to use my car for 98.5% of my driving during the last seven months. The balance being represented by just two journeys for which it was not entirely suitable – a trip to Las Vegas and a run to San Diego. Though the latter would have been feasible had I been able to allocate enough time to recharge before the return journey.


Electric vehicles take too long to charge.

Mr. Landsbaum is correct that the recharge time for my car is 21 hours from a 120v source and 7 hours from a 240v source. However, he conveniently omits mentioning DC Quick Charging at 400v, which recharges my car to 80% full in just 25 minutes. Nor does he mention that the 120v and 240v recharge times are a consequence of my car’s relatively slow 3.3kWh charger. Many electric vehicles will be fitted with a more robust 6.6kWh charger, which will naturally recharge them in half the times stated.

But in any eventuality, 7 hours for a full charge is convenient enough when it nearly always takes place overnight, while I’m sleeping. And fueling at home sure beats making special trips to the gas station, especially since it’s just 25% the cost of gasoline.


Electricity is just as dirty (or dirtier) than gasoline.

Mr. Landsbaum twists a few facts here, the worst of which is that his low CO2 figures for gasoline vehicles only show carbon footprints you’d see in very highly efficient gasoline engines (those giving over 37mpg), and they don’t represent the figures you’d see if one were to factor in gasoline production and delivery from well to pump.

It also fails to recognize that many states get a good percentage of their electricity from renewable sources, such as wind, solar, geothermal, and hydro-electric. And further fails to recognize that many EV drivers are committed to fueling their vehicles with green energy exclusively, in many instances produced by their own home solar systems.


The government over-subsidizes electric vehicles.

While it’s true there are significant near-term subsidies for electric vehicles, there are subsidies and tax breaks going to highly profitable oil companies, every year, which make those for green technology look like peanuts. And that’s before making a case for the costs of Middle East conflicts being factored into the true cost of gasoline, which is probably closer to $14 a gallon with them included. If you’re going to stand on a playing field railing about liberal government agendas, at least make sure it’s a level one.
 
Very well written post, Mike. Please let us know when they publish it so we can actively support you in the "Comments" section.
 
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