NRG eVgo Freedom Station thread for San Diego

[Randy]

The second eVgo Freedom Station opened up today in San Diego region at the Las Americas Premium Outlet Center down by the border...It has a Nissan Chademo DC Fast Charging station and a Level 2 station.

This station is at the southern intersection of Interstate 5 and 805 at the last freeway exit before heading into Mexico...

I charged there today before heading back up north, and it worked great....

 

[DaveEV]

What's the cost for using the L2 station? Do you have to buy a membership or can you pay a la carte? The eVgo website doesn't say...

 

[Randy]

The information I have was printed out and distributed on brochures at the Fashion Valley grand opening...

California Special:
http://www.evgonetwork.com/charging-plans-california/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Current pricing is $7.95 one time fee for 60 days of DC Fast Charging and Level 2 charging

Once that special times out, then the following pricing below will be in effect....

DC Fast Charging:
$14.95 per month plus 10 cents per minute for electricity
or
$9.95 per single use for a 20 minute charging session

Level 2 charging:
$5.95 per month plus $1 per plugged in hour
or
$2.50 per single use for a 1 hour charging session

The brochure also says to call 855-600-3856 for more information.

 

[DaveEV]

So... if you want access to both DC and L2 charging you have to pay $26/month or pay the single-use rates?

Looks like the DCQC plan only makes sense if you plan on using it two times a month or more on average.

The L2 plan only makes sense if you plan on using it for 4 hours a month or more on average.

It's a great deal for people who use it frequently, but man, I really hate signing up for memberships when I might only use public charging 3-4x a month maximum and often will go months without using public charging at all.

Why can't they just create a single plan that works for everyone without a monthly membership? Not that hard - simply bill customers monthly and give them a discount based on usage.

 

[Wennfred]

Im a once in a while DCQC user, I will stick with Blink.

Like the other poster, don't like the membership idea when I might use it once in 6 months and their single time use is way too high in price compare to Blink or Charge point.

I've already told the rep this via email, hope they get the point by reading this forum.


Fred

 

[Randy]

So... if you want access to both DC and L2 charging you have to pay $26/month or pay the single-use rates?

Looks like the DCQC plan only makes sense if you plan on using it two times a month or more on average.

The L2 plan only makes sense if you plan on using it for 4 hours a month or more on average.

It's a great deal for people who use it frequently, but man, I really hate signing up for memberships when I might only use public charging 3-4x a month maximum and often will go months without using public charging at all.

Why can't they just create a single plan that works for everyone without a monthly membership? Not that hard - simply bill customers monthly and give them a discount based on usage.

Let me check the brochure I have at work to see if the DC FC plan also includes L2 charging...

 

[ttweed]

Current pricing is $7.95 one time fee for 60 days of DC Fast Charging and Level 2 charging
Once that special times out, then the following pricing below will be in effect....

From talking with Andy Hoskinson at the last plug-in day event (he went from Ecotality to eVgo), the $7.95 special is going to extend well beyond 60 days, in all probability. They won't begin the monthly subscription program until there are at least 6 DCFC installations around town. I went ahead and signed up based on his tip, though I am not likely to use their chargers very often, and certainly won't pay the monthly subscription fee.

TT

 

[Randy]

Current pricing is $7.95 one time fee for 60 days of DC Fast Charging and Level 2 charging
Once that special times out, then the following pricing below will be in effect....

From talking with Andy Hoskinson at the last plug-in day event (he went from Ecotality to eVgo), the $7.95 special is going to extend well beyond 60 days, in all probability. They won't begin the monthly subscription program until there are at least 6 DCFC installations around town. I went ahead and signed up based on his tip, though I am not likely to use their chargers very often, and certainly won't pay the monthly subscription fee.

TT

That is correct, Tom...Projections are looking like that threshold of stations will be reached by the end of the year. So for new people signing up, the 60 days is probably pretty close to accurate...

 

[davewill]

... I went ahead and signed up based on his tip, though I am not likely to use their chargers very often, and certainly won't pay the monthly subscription fee. ...

Probably a good idea in general. If they see a whole bunch of trials that don't convert, that may encourage them to come up with a plan that suits our needs better.

 

[walterbays]

The information I have was printed out and distributed on brochures at the Fashion Valley grand opening...

DC Fast Charging:
$14.95 per month plus 10 cents per minute for electricity
or
$9.95 per single use for a 20 minute charging session

Their web site does not list this subscription option, so either they're not going to advertise it until the 60 day trial times out, or like the extension of that trial until they have some stations built it's just something they're considering but will not commit to. Which could be good news if it means they're still flexible in considering what will work best for drivers and for their business.

I agree with Dave that if many people don't convert their trial memberships to subscriptions that may cause them to rethink their plan. Their prices are out of line with Blink and EVoasis, and way out of line with Chevron and Shell (just drive the SUV). Unfortunately their prices are probably about where they need to be to make money with utility demand fees. Another comparison could be pertinent for cars with aging batteries and declining range: better to pay evGo $15/month to keep your car fully functional than to pay Nissan $100/month to rent a new battery.

It's too bad that a monthly fee like this only makes sense if you will use it a lot, and so subscribers will be inclined to use it even when we don't really need it, resulting in more queuing and worse service. Yet it makes business sense for evGo to induce subscribers to waste resources in this way since the utility demand fee applies to a single charge event in a month, and it's better for them to be able to amortize it over a few hundred charge events. It's just one more example of the pernicious effect of utility demand fees on the EV market. Applied to ordinary electricity usage the demand fee is supposed to level utility loads across the day, but as it applies to EV QC it encourages load shifting from super off peak night into peak afternoon hours, exactly the reverse of what the grid needs.

 

[DaveEV]

I agree with Dave that if many people don't convert their trial memberships to subscriptions that may cause them to rethink their plan. Their prices are out of line with Blink and EVoasis, and way out of line with Chevron and Shell (just drive the SUV).

I disagree here.

Assuming you get a typical 20 minute charge starting at LBW, you'll pick up about 10-12 kWh on a 50 kW CHAdeMO. Twice as expensive than Blink member rates, but comparable to the guest rates at $8/session. I bet you that Car Charging Group will be raising their rates given their fees at other stations.

Now it takes at least 30 minutes to pick up a similar charge on the 25 kW Evoasis. Off peak ($10/hr), the Evoasis rate is similar to Blink member rates at least on a energy charge. But on-peak ($15/hr) you'll wait at about 30 minutes to pick up the same amount of charge, so again, the price is similar, but you wait a bit longer.

Yeah, the incremental cost of quick charging is 10-25c/mile at the above rates. But as I've always said, looking at the incremental cost is the wrong way to do it, you should be looking at the average cost since you are also picking up 50-70 miles of electricity at ~4c/mile, never mind that I didn't buy an EV because it was cheaper than a gas car. If I wanted the cheapest option I would have sold my last car and bought an old Civic or Corolla.

Anyway, I will pay $10/session if I need it. I just wish there was a lower cost option for those times when I don't need a full QC...

 

[walterbays]

Assuming you get a typical 20 minute charge starting at LBW, you'll pick up about 10-12 kWh on a 50 kW CHAdeMO.

That would be typical if QC stations were as ubiquitous as gas stations so you could fill up when you were near empty. But since they're few and far between, either you can do without QC or you may need to fill up when you're close to half full when you just happen to be near one of those rare QC stations. A $10 charge from 50% to 80% of 21 kWh usable capacity is $1.59/kWh, $0.40/mile - the same incremental cost as a 10 MPG SUV with $4/gallon gas.

Yeah, the incremental cost of quick charging is 10-25c/mile at the above rates. But as I've always said, looking at the incremental cost is the wrong way to do it, you should be looking at the average cost since you are also picking up 50-70 miles of electricity at ~4c/mile

I agree that total trip cost is more meaningful than incremental cost, and all my trips enabled by QC have been much cheaper than driving the ICE all the way.

Anyway, I will pay $10/session if I need it. I just wish there was a lower cost option for those times when I don't need a full QC...

I don't want evGo to rethink their total revenue that makes the business profitable, makes them want to expand, and makes other companies want to come compete with them. What I hope they rethink is having the same horrible flat session pricing as Blink, and the even worse flat monthly subscription.

A $10 session price, even more so than Blink, will cause people to stay longer than they need to get their full value. Since QC charge rate decreases as SOC increases the last few percent of charge will take much longer than the first few percent of charge, and we'll have longer waits in line to begin our charges. The monthly subscription is even worse since to get your best value for your money you might charge at evGo in preference to charging at home. The only mitigation there is that they do also have a per minute charge, but still the price structure encourages waste and long lines.

If instead they had a lower monthly fee for access to the network and a higher per minute fee for use, they'd get many more subscribers, shorter queues as people took only what they need, and they'd probably make more money.

 

[davewill]

Well, I was shopping at the Carlsbad Outlets and saw that they're putting in another Freedom Station there. Does anyone else find it odd that they are only putting in ONE J1772 at these locations? There are tons of cars that don't have DCQC, and at a busy mall like that, the single station will be perpetually occupied, I would think. Even with my LEAF, at these locations I would rather plug into J1772 and go shop, than have to babysit a QC session for 20 min, and raise my battery temp a bunch.

Another problem with the monthly plans is that EVGO isn't the only or even the biggest fish in the pond around here. How can I justify paying for "unlimited" use, only to have to turn around and pay Blink and Chargepoint when EVGO isn't available? ...and that's assuming I have enough use to even come close to justifying $30 a month or whatever they plan to charge.

I don't have a big problem with the per use pricing on DCQC, but I agree it would strongly encourage people to charge to 100%. I would prefer a per minute price instead. It would be ideal if it came in at about $5-7 for 20minutes and $10-15 for someone who insists on sitting for 40 min or more to get every last drop ...and I haven't seen anything on per use pricing for J1772.

 

[DaveEV]

davewill, where at the mall are they installing the stations? It's a great location - lots of restaurants and shopping there.

Completely agree with you on the number of L2 stations. At a location like this, they should be installing at least 4 to start with.

Randy posted the eVgo a la carte pricing for L2 earlier, it's $2.49/hr. Way too expensive for 16A charging unless you really need it. Seems to be designed to encourage people to sign up for the membership.

 

[davewill]

... Randy posted the eVgo a la carte pricing for L2 earlier, it's $2.49/hr. Way too expensive for 16A charging unless you really need it. Seems to be designed to encourage people to sign up for the membership.

It's at the south end of the lot near the flower fields. As far as the price, it's the same as Blink's guest pricing, and it seems to be the rate that some other providers are settling on. Granted you can sign up for a free Blink membership and get it down to $1.50. But even at that price, I can shop for 3 hours, get 9kWh on board for $7.50...which I might prefer to doing a QC when I don't need to. I do agree on the 16a charging though, honestly, I blame Nissan more than the charging companies. It was a stupid choice to ship the LEAF with 16a charging. Had they shipped with 30a charging, it would be the FLOOR for the car manufacturers now. My next EV certainly will have higher capacity charging.

 

[walterbays]

Completely agree with you on the number of L2 stations. At a location like this, they should be installing at least 4 to start with.

First off it's great to have more stations at all, anywhere, at any price, but...

It seems evGo has decided to place their stations at shopping malls. That's a great location for 5 to 10 L2 stations so you can charge while you shop. But it's not so nice for QC. How long will my 20 minute quick charge take? 10 minutes to fight my way through mall traffic to get to the station, 20 minutes to wait for the guy ahead of me, 20 minutes to charge, and 10 minutes to fight my way through mall traffic to exit. And that's if I'm lucky and there isn't a Chevy Suburban parked in the QC space. You don't have time during charging to go shop, unless you intend to block the charging station from use by others. So you wait in the car. The lobby of the Residence Inn (EVoasis) with its sofas, Wifi, snacks, and restrooms, is a much nicer place to wait than the parking lot of Fashion Valley mall. For that matter the parking lot of SDSU (Blink) is a better place with its free Wifi and absence of mall traffic.

That could all change if they had 8 L2 stations. You could quick charge to 80%, then move to an L2 space to top off while you do a little shopping. I wonder whether the decision to locate their stations at malls was because they hope finally to reach that scenario. Or because they're able to tie into mall electrical circuits and demand management systems to mitigate ruinous utility demand charges. Or just because that's where they happened to make the deals with property owners.

 

[DaveEV]

It's at the south end of the lot near the flower fields.

Thanks, drove by and found it, that's Starbucks, Subway and Rubio's in the background from left to right.

As far as the price, it's the same as Blink's guest pricing, and it seems to be the rate that some other providers are settling on.

Well, it's 25% more than Blink guest pricing ($2.49 vs $2.00 / hour).

But even at that price, I can shop for 3 hours, get 9kWh on board for $7.50...which I might prefer to doing a QC when I don't need to.

Great point!

I do agree on the 16a charging though, honestly, I blame Nissan more than the charging companies. It was a stupid choice to ship the LEAF with 16a charging. Had they shipped with 30a charging, it would be the FLOOR for the car manufacturers now. My next EV certainly will have higher capacity charging.

Another good point. For sure on any EV I buy in the future, I will be opting for at least 30A charging. For a PHEV - don't think it's that big a deal since you have backup, but 30A charging would probably increase the amount of EV miles on days when you make a lot of shorter trips. Admittedly, I have only wished for > 16A charging a handful of times over the last 2.5 years, the bigger issue is just finding convenient charging (that works and isn't ICEd or otherwise unusable) in the first place.

First off it's great to have more stations at all, anywhere, at any price, but...

Definitely...

It seems evGo has decided to place their stations at shopping malls. That's a great location for 5 to 10 L2 stations so you can charge while you shop.

Malls are definitely good places for lots of L2. In fact, they are good locations for multiple QCs as well, which eliminates some of the other issues you describe as well since you won't have to worry as much about leaving the car parked there too long... As you say, though, per-session charging really kills the opportunity to do a bit of QC and then move to L2. Even 5 minutes of QC if you're down at LBW and then switching to L2 for the rest if you'll be staying a while would work great.

I still wonder how eVgo was able to get these last two QC stations installed where Blink failed... Blink at least probably would have gotten at least 3-4 L2 stations installed here to go with the QC station...

 

[davewill]

I still wonder how eVgo was able to get these last two QC stations installed where Blink failed... Blink at least probably would have gotten at least 3-4 L2 stations installed here to go with the QC station...

The answer to most questions like this is "money", but in this case it may also be because they DIDN'T ask for 5-10 parking spaces.

 

[Randy]

I still wonder how eVgo was able to get these last two QC stations installed where Blink failed... Blink at least probably would have gotten at least 3-4 L2 stations installed here to go with the QC station...

The answer to most questions like this is "money", but in this case it may also be because they DIDN'T ask for 5-10 parking spaces.

Blink's model was to provide free (subsidized) hardware and partially subsidized installation, and revenue sharing since the electric service is in the name of the host. So the host was potentially on the hook for some serious money and took some risk on the energy bill with the usage and demand charges (depending on the host).

On the other hand, as part of the CPUC settlement, eVgo pays for all hardware, all installation, all electricity and just arrives at an agreement with the host for the space required. My personal opinion is that this method is more attractive to potential hosts...

 

[DaveEV]

Drove by the eVgo station at the Carlsbad Premium Outlets to see what they looked like after checking it out last week. The construction fence around it is down, but nothing is powered up. The L2 station seems to be missing the holster that holds the plug. There is a 120V plug on the side of the L2 station as well. That L2 station is massive!