Leaf vs. Volt

[Deleted member 9549]

I'm debating between a Volt and Leaf and curious about members thoughts comparing the two. Why did you go with the Leaf? For leaf owners, how happy are you with the car? What sort of real world range do you get?

I've found what seems like a good deal on the Leaf S w 6.6kw charger for $193/mo for 24 months, 24k miles w 1k cash. Much better than anything I can find on a volt.

I'd generally prefer a BEV if the range is sufficient. I'm looking at using a Leaf as a replacement for a minivan to shuttle kids around lots of homeschool events. We log 35-75 miles a day, the longer days are usually multiple trips with a few hours at home so quick charging might give a buffer. Many of the miles are highway at 70-75 mph. It's hard to get a feel for real world range on the Leaf. Range is not an issue with the Volt, but its a much more expensive car, has worse visibility, less room inside and in the trunk, seats 4 not 5.

 

[Boomer23]

We MUST have your home region in order to answer in a useful way.

If you live in a hot summer region, like Arizona, those 75 mile days at freeway speeds in the LEAF won't be possible after the second summer, possibly after the first. In the northwest or the SF Bay Area, you should be okay. If you live in very cold winter regions, winter will sap your range due to the cold and your use of the heater.

If you can effectively charge at 30 Amps at home (6 kW charger), for a few hours in the middle of the day, you should be fine.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

We MUST have your home region in order to answer in a useful way.

Raleigh, NC. I saw on some list that it has the same zone rating as LA although our weather is more variable. We have had as much as two weeks with highs over 100. Other summers with none. Winters are typically in the 40s for highs, but we've had nights as low as single digits. But that's exceptionally rare.

I had also debated the S vs SL for the hybrid heater. The car would normally be in a garage. I assume there's a way to preheat the cabin while its plugged in?

 

[Boomer23]

We MUST have your home region in order to answer in a useful way.

Raleigh, NC. I saw on some list that it has the same zone rating as LA although our weather is more variable. We have had as much as two weeks with highs over 100. Other summers with none. Winters are typically in the 40s for highs, but we've had nights as low as single digits. But that's exceptionally rare.

I had also debated the S vs SL for the hybrid heater. The car would normally be in a garage. I assume there's a way to preheat the cabin while its plugged in?

Right. With the SL, you can use a convenient phone app or computer to send a message to the car through Carwings to start preheating. That's not available with the S. With both cars you can set a preheat timer inside the car ahead of time, but I seem to recall reading that it is less convenient to do on the S. On those cold days, you will probably appreciate the hybrid heater to keep the kids comfortable without sapping your range. The stock heater really is a range hog.

I'm near LA and in two years and 22,000 miles, I still have all 12 battery capacity bars, but my full charge range has dropped about 15%. I'm now hard pressed to get 70 miles on a full charge, and that's cruising gently at 50 mph or less.

As I said, if you can charge at home for a couple of hours using the 6 kW charger (make sure that your home is set up to charge at 30 amps to get the full charging amps), you'll do fine on a 2 year lease. You will need an EVSE that can supply that amperage and a 40 amp breaker in your power panel.)

 

[smkettner]

You will want to be slowing down on the long days with the LEAF.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

You will want to be slowing down on the long days with the LEAF.

As I understand it, the 2013 Leaf also has an Eco mode that's supposed to give you an extra 10% and you can push the max charge for extra range. I've read that the 73 range on the 2013 is conservative and that it should be higher.

We wouldn't want to get stuck away from home so I wouldn't want to risk less than 20 mile buffer, but I figure charging a few hours during the day should be able to do that.

So... with Eco mode, extra charge mode, charging during the day but still driving w traffic at 70-75, does it seem remotely possible to go 75 miles with a comfortable buffer? Very hard to get a feel for real world range on a test drive.

 

[cgaydos]

I think you're asking all the right questions. Based on what you've written the LEAF will probably work for you, especially if you get a 2013 with the 6.6kW charger and a 30 amp EVSE at home. You probably should check that you can install one of these easily in your home ... Best is if you have at least a 200 amp service and a electric panel already in your garage. The good news is that once you do this you can use that EVSE for a long time, including your futue electric cars.

The truth is that you won't know the LEAF range for sure until you've driven one for a while. So much depends on your driving style and the local conditions. Hills, high speeds (over 60), very cold temps, and resistance factors like high wind or snow all reduce range. Using hypermiling techniques, described in many posts in this forum, you can greatly extend your range. In our case, over time we've learned to assess conditions and adjust our driving styles accordingly.

Given that the Volt is a safer bet if you have any doubts. But for us, after we decided to get a second EV earlier this year I test drove a Volt and found out, as you did, that the net cost was significantly higher and it had less utility than a LEAF. So we went with a second LEAF with zero regrets. Frankly I'm also very glad that I don't have to deal with the gasoline aspects of the Volt. Once you get used to it you'll probably find it's really liberating to simply plug in at home and never think about stopping by a gas station or Jiffy Lube.

Let us know how you progress in your decision.

 

[KeiJidosha]

...So... with Eco mode, extra charge mode, charging during the day but still driving w traffic at 70-75, does it seem remotely possible to go 75 miles with a comfortable buffer? Very hard to get a feel for real world range on a test drive...

Check out Tony Williams Range Chart. New battery range, no HVAC, is 62-68 miles at 70-75mph. If you can charge at home mid-day, you add ~20 miles per charge hour at those speeds. If you need to go 75 miles at 75 mph without hitting a charger, you need a Volt.

 

[cgaydos]

You will want to be slowing down on the long days with the LEAF.

As I understand it, the 2013 Leaf also has an Eco mode that's supposed to give you an extra 10% and you can push the max charge for extra range. I've read that the 73 range on the 2013 is conservative and that it should be higher.

We wouldn't want to get stuck away from home so I wouldn't want to risk less than 20 mile buffer, but I figure charging a few hours during the day should be able to do that.

So... with Eco mode, extra charge mode, charging during the day but still driving w traffic at 70-75, does it seem remotely possible to go 75 miles with a comfortable buffer? Very hard to get a feel for real world range on a test drive.

Alas it's complicated. The 2011/2012 had an EPA range of 73, which probably is a reasonable average range for the car over all conditions. The 2013 would have had a range of about 84 with the same methodology but the EPA heard that a lot of people charge to just 80% so they averaged the range to 75.

There are debates about how much Eco mode actually helps, and it works somewhat differently in the 2013 so I can't comment from experience. However I wouldn't suggest counting on more than 5-6 miles for planning purposes.

To me the real red flag in your situation is driving at 70-75. Those speeds reduce range in all cars but especially so with the LEAF. I cannot imagine getting 75miles range - let alone with a comfortable buffer - at 70 mph. Then subtract 15% for expected battery degradation after 2 years for your climate ... Not at all realistic.

If this is going to work you're going to have to do a 30 amp charge mid-day for an hour or so. Then you can get that range.

 

[cgaydos]

...So... with Eco mode, extra charge mode, charging during the day but still driving w traffic at 70-75, does it seem remotely possible to go 75 miles with a comfortable buffer? Very hard to get a feel for real world range on a test drive...

Check out Tony Williams Range Chart. New battery range, no HVAC, is 62-68 miles at 70-75mph. If you can charge at home mid-day, you add ~20 miles per charge hour at those speeds. If you need to go 75 miles at 75 mph without hitting a charger, you need a Volt.

This chart is for 2011/2012 - and I greatly appreciate Tony creating it! But is there a 2013 version? Everything I've read, including the EPA rating, indicates more range with the 2013.

 

[Boomer23]

You will want to be slowing down on the long days with the LEAF.

As I understand it, the 2013 Leaf also has an Eco mode that's supposed to give you an extra 10% and you can push the max charge for extra range. I've read that the 73 range on the 2013 is conservative and that it should be higher.

We wouldn't want to get stuck away from home so I wouldn't want to risk less than 20 mile buffer, but I figure charging a few hours during the day should be able to do that.

So... with Eco mode, extra charge mode, charging during the day but still driving w traffic at 70-75, does it seem remotely possible to go 75 miles with a comfortable buffer? Very hard to get a feel for real world range on a test drive.

The older LEAF has ECO mode as well, and "pushing the max charge" is the same as charging to 100%, which all LEAFs can do. Nothing I've read leads me to believe that the 2013 has a longer range than the 2012 or 2011, and range tests in California by some forum members confirm that the range is the same. The only thing that would substantially improve the range in the 2013 is the hybrid heater if you live in cold winter climates and you would use the heater a lot.

None of this should discourage you from choosing the LEAF, but do get the 6 kW charger and make sure that your EVSE and your power panel can supply the required amps for your needed mid-day charges.

 

[smkettner]

ECO mode does not create power. You will use the same energy to go 75 mph in any mode.

ECO only reduces throttle response when accelerating and increases regeneration a bit when coasting. There is no magic extra energy. ECO just helps you drive more conservatively and save power. With care the same economy can be achieved in regular drive mode.

Going down the road at 75+ will seriously cut into your range on ANY electric or gasoline vehicle. Gas vehicle you never notice because you do not care if the tank lasts 400 miles or 450 miles.

Yes you will learn to slow into the 60 - 65 max zone if range is an issue. Even less in the right conditions.

 

[adric22]

We have both a Leaf and a Volt. So I feel qualified to answer any differences between the cars. However, it seems most of the bases have been covered already.

I would just generally say that we've enjoyed both cars. I originally bought a Leaf in 2011 because money was tight at the time and it was the most affordable option. With the leases they have now, either one is just about as affordable. Truth be told, I've been thinking about getting another Volt when the lease is up on the Leaf next year. I like driving the Volt more. No particular reason other than it just fits my "style" of car better than the Leaf. My commute and general driving patterns are such that even the Volt is a full-time EV for me, so either car works just fine. The last time big oil got any money from our family was when we took a trip from Dallas to Houston a few months ago.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Truth be told, I've been thinking about getting another Volt when the lease is up on the Leaf next year. I like driving the Volt more. No particular reason other than it just fits my "style" of car better than the Leaf. My commute and general driving patterns are such that even the Volt is a full-time EV for me, so either car works just fine. The last time big oil got any money from our family was when we took a trip from Dallas to Houston a few months ago.

I'm considering the Volt for greater range flexibility but the prices seem much higher. I haven't found anything less than the $269 current lease deal and haven't found a 2 yr lease.
I'm also discouraged by the gm-volt website. Apparently they don't allow any criticism of the Volt even if factual. Can't mention it's 4 passenger seating and can't discuss dismal April sales. They've banned several people for mild criticism in recent days. If someone is that worried about silencing dissent, makes it seem there's true dissatisfaction to hide.

 

[Pipcecil]

I have both as well (me the leaf, wife the volt) at 2011 Leaf and her a 2012 Volt.

As for considerations here are some things that stick out in my mind:

Leaf is bigger - a whole class bigger than the Volt (Midsize vs Compact). The volt only sits 4 but even that 4 is cramped unless you are small like my wife and I. Trunck space is also smaller in the volt.

Volt is nicer quality - this gap may be smaller since the leaf has leather and better sound system, but the volt, to me (especially compared to the 2011 leaf) has a better quality build to it - it seems more solid

Volt is sportier - if this makes any difference its more sporty - faster and tighter on the curves

Volt has more consitent range - over the winter, summer, etc. while both will vary in EV range, the Volt showed more consitencey with it's range, varying only maybe 5 miles at most, the leaf would have wild swings on range from temperature variations.

Leaf has faster battery degredation - while I cannot with an specifics tell what capacity has been lost in the volt, the easiest guide is if my wife can make it to work on all electric (she can barely - within a mile or two variance) - she can still do this after one year. My leaf (almost 2) has lost battery and has affected my range by over 10 miles lost (its more like 15 or so currently - I used to get mid 80's I am now upper 60's). But this is Texas, so the heat lost is greater (and I put significant miles too).

Leaf precooling/heat is better - You can preheat/cool for an hour before hand (30 minutes max is really all you need) if plugged in. The Volt, regardless if its plugged in or not will only preheat/cool for 15 minutes. Sometimes thats just not enough. Or if you are late timing your exact departure you can come back to a car that lost all the heat/cooling.

Leaf AC/heat is better (2013 model) - While the 2011 leaf heater sucks (too much power), the new one is compriable to the Volt, although better at heating, in addition, the AC ROCKS on the Leaf, the Volt requires a significantly lower temperature set to even compare (FYI in a Hot Texas summer after the cabin has cooled, I can keep the Leaf at 84 temp, the volt usually requires 74 temp).

The Volt (or Leaf) is cheaper maintence - yes I said both. If you follow the MANUFACTURER's maintence, the Leaf is more expensive (requires a brake fluid change every year) - some argue this is not needed, but I tend to stick with the manufacturer maintence - there is probably something quirky/crappy about the Leaf's break system (definetely don't listen to the recommended maintenence from the repair shop) and I trust the engineer more than the car shop and their "recommendations" or myself. The volt has oil change (every 2 years) and spark plugs (eventually) - but nothing as expensive as brake flush per year. If you skip the flush then the volt's needed oil and plugs will eventually cost more than the leaf.

Both are really nice and it just depends what you want. Hope this helps

 

[ksnogas2112]

I think the Leaf would work just fine for you except for the highway speeds. If you can take the time and it's safe to do, dial that down to 55 and you're golden especially if you opt for the SL with the hybrid heater. That thing is designed for the NC winters. A friend of mine there teases me that he's riding his motor cycle in January and I'm freezing here. I wouldn't worry about prolonged heat over there even if you purchase instead of lease. If you can't dial down the freeway speed do you have a charging location handy during the day to offset the higher speeds. If you opt for the 6.6 charging option that would be a good fit too.

Looking at the Chargepoint site there are 30 EVSE's (Nash Square and NC State) inside the I-40/440 looking circle with about another 15 single spots in the outlying regions.

https://na.chargepoint.com/index.php/charge_point" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I think the Leaf would work just fine for you except for the highway speeds. If you can take the time and it's safe to do, dial that down to 55 and you're golden especially if you opt for the SL with the hybrid heater.

Expressways here have speed limit of 65 to 70 and folks usually run almost 10mph more than that meaning usual speeds are 75-80 unless there's traffic, which we usually avoid. Running at 55 would be a road hazard.
During a test drive I took a 2013 S up to 80 and it felt fine. It was a little slow accelerating for passing but I think acceptable. Same car burned rubber starting while turning. Wish the was an easy way to evaluate range but its hard especially without being able to charge at home.

 

[Volusiano]

Here's another thread on Volt vs Leaf if you haven't found it already: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12005" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Reddy]

....as a replacement for a minivan to shuttle kids around lots of homeschool events. We log 35-75 miles a day, the longer days are usually multiple trips with a few hours at home so quick charging might give a buffer. Many of the miles are highway at 70-75 mph.

We wouldn't want to get stuck away from home so I wouldn't want to risk less than 20 mile buffer, but I figure charging a few hours during the day should be able to do that.

A couple of points that I don't think have been addressed:
1) Shuttling kids in a Volt vs Leaf. Leaf wins with more space and seats.
2) Longer days with a couple of hours at home and charging at 6 KW should be fine. When was the last time you got three kids fed a homemade lunch (not talking about "fat fued" crap), cleaned, packed, into the car and out the driveway in less than an hour?
3) Driving at the speed limit is not irresponsible, it's the law. Personally, I don't understand why anyone thinks it's a good idea to drive so fast, but then again I don't live in CA or similar high-speed areas.
4)If you cannot drive without at least 20 mi on the Guess-o-meter, then you cannot get the full use of the battery. I've driven 20 mi AFTER the first Low Battery Warning (LBW) in town at lower speeds even at freezing temps (see signature). You will be leaving a good 20-30 mi of driving distance in the battery. So subtract that from your max 80 mi range and your at 50-60 mi max in good weather. Throw in some really bad snow/wind/rain and you'll get maybe 40-50 mi (remember you WILL be slowing down in inclement weather unless you're crazy or stupid, so that helps a bit).

Personally, I think the Leaf with the new 6 KW charger is a better choice than the Volt for your application and is easily doable. I've driven both and they both are good cars. I prefer the taller head space and extra room in the Leaf. I'm able to drive 100% EV all throughout my small metropolitan area. Others have different applications and I have even talked several people out of buying a Leaf because their driving patterns were better fit to the Volt.