Leaf charging only to 90 %

[Mojm10]

Hey,
I cannot get my Leaf 2012 charging to full. It charges only to 87-92 %. Timers are off. Same thing if timer button pushed just before plugging in. I've tried granny cable and EVSE 6-16A. I tried charging in a heated garage, batt temp before charging was 21C, didn't help. I've even tried to unplug/plug after it was done. Nothing. SOH is 70%. Hx is cca 47. The car doesn't regenerate much, only like 10 kW, so two bubbles max.

What do you think? I need that last 10% charge for my range needs. Cheers

 

[jjeff]

It's very common for an older(pre '13) Leaf to not charge all the way to 100%, especially one that has a degraded battery. My '12 is like yours in that it stops at anywhere from the upper 80s to very low 90s.
Note the battery is as full as it can be and no way to get it to charge more, when it stops charging it's full. I believe the newer Leafs tend to do some rounding up to 100% even with a degraded battery so it's more trickery than anything else, but I agree it's nice to see 100% especially for a Leaf that barely makes your need for the range.

 

[alozzy]

You might want to check with LEAFSpy, there's a chance you have a not so great cell, the mV delta would confirm that, on the histogram

 

[cwerdna]

Model years before '13 do not even have a % state of charge display. They only have the 12 fuel bars and GOM. 1% increment SoC display didn't arrive until US model year '13.

OP, how are you determining the 90%? Since you mention SOH and Hx, are you getting the % SoC from Leaf Spy? If so, the % SoC will never be 100% via that.

 

[SageBrush]

You might want to check with LEAFSpy, there's a chance you have a not so great cell, the mV delta would confirm that, on the histogram

That makes fine sense

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Hey,
I cannot get my Leaf 2012 charging to full. It charges only to 87-92 %. Timers are off. Same thing if timer button pushed just before plugging in. I've tried granny cable and EVSE 6-16A. I tried charging in a heated garage, batt temp before charging was 21C, didn't help. I've even tried to unplug/plug after it was done. Nothing. SOH is 70%. Hx is cca 47. The car doesn't regenerate much, only like 10 kW, so two bubbles max.

What do you think? I need that last 10% charge for my range needs. Cheers

But you are getting 12 charge bars, right? Sounds like she is giving all she can give. Batteries degrade no matter who makes them.

 

[SageBrush]

Batteries degrade no matter who makes them.

But some degrade a lot more than others. LOL

 

[jjeff]

Model years before '13 do not even have a % state of charge display. They only have the 12 fuel bars and GOM. 1% increment SoC display didn't arrive until US model year '13.

OP, how are you determining the 90%? Since you mention SOH and Hx, are you getting the % SoC from Leaf Spy? If so, the % SoC will never be 100% via that.

Correct but as the OP used C for temp and ended their post with "cheers" I thought they might be from GB and wasn't sure if their '11/'12 Leafs had a SOC% but as you said they mentioned Hx so I'd have to assume they have Leafspy, that or something like a LeafDD like I have that lists many things found on Leafspy including SOC% and Hx.
The histogram on my '12 is a mess and has the original bad designed battery I did get a very good deal on it but in hind site may not have purchased it as especially in the cold it's basically a local vehicle.

 

[cwerdna]

Model years before '13 do not even have a % state of charge display. They only have the 12 fuel bars and GOM. 1% increment SoC display didn't arrive until US model year '13.

OP, how are you determining the 90%? Since you mention SOH and Hx, are you getting the % SoC from Leaf Spy? If so, the % SoC will never be 100% via that.

Correct but as the OP used C for temp and ended their post with "cheers" I thought they might be from GB and wasn't sure if their '11/'12 Leafs had a SOC% but as you said they mentioned Hx so I'd have to assume they have Leafspy, that or something like a LeafDD like I have that lists many things found on Leafspy including SOC% and Hx.

It seems impossible that an '11 Leaf anywhere had a 1% increment % SoC display. It's possible that a late '12 somewhere else that was the equivalent of our '13 could since I heard model years are a "newer" thing to the UK. US model year '13 didn't ship until sometime in early calendar year 2013.

I was present at the meeting at the beginning of Dec 2011 (https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6049&start=250) where Kadota-san (gen 1 Leaf Chief Vehicle Engineer), Mark Perry, a Nissan quality guy (don't recall his name) and some engineers from Japan were present. People pleaded w/them for a % SoC display. The quality guy kept drilling down on asking what's wrong w/the GOM. Some folks had the original gid meter (https://saxton.org/tom_saxton/2012/01/leaf-soc-meter-build.html) and it was in the slides provided to Nissan besides being shown to the Nissan folks.

They heard our pleas and added it to US model year '13.

 

[knightmb]

They heard our pleas and added it to US model year '13.

Wow, I wish they would do that now. I can understand from an engineer perspective of "why do you need a %, you have those analog bars just like a gas car does" and I'm sure most were like "but yeah this isn't a gas car, so why make it seem like one where you have no idea how much you really have left other than big chunks". How many gas cars can you look at the gas guage and say "Hmm, I have 7.25 gallons left, so I need to add 3.175 gallons to make my trip", :mrgreen:

If the same people were in a meeting with users now, I'm sure they would get tired of "but everyone else is able to take a 40/62 kwh battery put it in their gen 1 left, why not just officially support it at the dealership instead of trying to sell us a gen2 left with the battery already in it?" :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

They heard our pleas and added it to US model year '13.

Wow, I wish they would do that now. I can understand from an engineer perspective of "why do you need a %, you have those analog bars just like a gas car does" and I'm sure most were like "but yeah this isn't a gas car, so why make it seem like one where you have no idea how much you really have left other than big chunks". How many gas cars can you look at the gas guage and say "Hmm, I have 7.25 gallons left, so I need to add 3.175 gallons to make my trip", :mrgreen:

If the same people were in a meeting with users now, I'm sure they would get tired of "but everyone else is able to take a 40/62 kwh battery put it in their gen 1 left, why not just officially support it at the dealership instead of trying to sell us a gen2 left with the battery already in it?" :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Well "actually" I don't know of any recent model that doesn't have a DTE (distance to empty) display which is essentially an SOC meter. Its all about the capacity to cover the needs and SOC meter is simply the same thing with smaller increments that we all equate to higher accuracy :lol:

 

[Mojm10]

I've used LeafSpy. I thought SoH represents remaining capacity compared to new.

Should I expect not being able to charge fully to get worse?

Why is SOC inaccurate in LeafSpy?

How to read histogram?

Thanks

 

[cwerdna]

Why is SOC inaccurate in LeafSpy?

As far as we know, the % SoC value in LeafSpy is more accurate. Leaf Spy simpler renders what's available via the CAN bus.

Nissan leaves some portion at the top and bottom of the battery inaccessible to the user.

'13+ Leafs that do have a % SoC display when they indicate 100% do not show 100% SoC via Leaf Spy. It's some value a few % less. The % SoC dash display was developed independently of Leaf Spy.

If you charge w/o any timers until the car stops by itself, you should see a certain # of gids on that "full" charge. It shouldn't vary that much and it will decrease as the battery degrades. That will be as full as it can get.

On 24 kWh Leaf on a new battery, it's ~281 (https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5582) to I think low 290's gids on a charge.

My 11 bar Leaf w/SOH around 79.xx% when I last charged to 100% (long ago) hit about 230ish to maybe 241 gids on a full charge.

I've used LeafSpy. I thought SoH represents remaining capacity compared to new.

Probably. See https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=587983#p587983.

 

[goldbrick]

How to read histogram?

The histogram shows the voltage of each sub-module (2 cells in parallel). The different colors show which modules are being balanced, which means that the individual cells are either being drawn down or charged up to match the other cells. The main takeaway from the histogram is that you want the delta between the cells to be small. Under 15 mV is great, anything over 50 mV isn't so hot. Over 200 mV and you might have problems. The unbalance is usually worse when the SOC is lower and that is normal.

 

[LeftieBiker]

It can be alarming when most of the cell pairs are charging,as the graph will be mostly red bars. But that's ok - all that matters is the maximum differences in cell voltages.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I've used LeafSpy. I thought SoH represents remaining capacity compared to new.

Should I expect not being able to charge fully to get worse?

Why is SOC inaccurate in LeafSpy?

How to read histogram?

Thanks

:lol: as compared to what? The dash? LEAF Spy only parrots back what the car says but...

Some basics here first.

The Dash runs 100% to "_ _ _" which we can imply as zero since it does arrive shortly after 1%. BUT the car doesn't stop when zero% happens so we "know" the dash zero is wrong.

We also know that a full charge is never 100% either, so we know that is wrong as well.

Ok, so so far, we have dash -2

On LEAF Spy, SOC runs from roughly 98% more or less to 1.5% more or less. You can get higher and you can get lower... a teeny tiny bit. Both parameters are what we have come to believe is the standard for all batteries. After all, your 12 volt battery is dead cause it won't do anything but that is not true. It will light up LED's which is one of the things that throws people. They start the car, get all kinds of weird symbols and error messages and we assume because we can see that, the 12 volt is good when it's not.

So in ALL things; the dash is not a true meter of anything EXCEPT what Nissan wants you to see. Supposedly, its their version of "usable" range and they give you several warnings to make sure you don't go too low, etc.

Either way, I took a trip and I tracked the relationship of the dash SOC and LEAF Spy SOC from 100% to ZERO. Not only is the dash SOC misleading, the each percentage point isn't even the same NOR is it designed to be.

https://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2020/06/e-plus-summer-range-test.html

 

[LeftieBiker]

The Dash runs 100% to "_ _ _" which we can imply as zero since it does arrive shortly after 1%. BUT the car doesn't stop when zero% happens so we "know" the dash zero is wrong

It's my recollection that "---" is displayed below something like 5% SOC, because at that point the car can't accurately determine the exact point at which a low cell will trigger Turtle mode. Am I remembering this wrong?

 

[GerryAZ]

The Dash runs 100% to "_ _ _" which we can imply as zero since it does arrive shortly after 1%. BUT the car doesn't stop when zero% happens so we "know" the dash zero is wrong

It's my recollection that "---" is displayed below something like 5% SOC, because at that point the car can't accurately determine the exact point at which a low cell will trigger Turtle mode. Am I remembering this wrong?

The dash display ranges from 100% to essentially 0%, as Dave said. On my 2019 SL Plus, the first low battery warning happens at 6% SOC, very low battery warning happens at 2% SOC, and the SOC display goes to ---% after being at 1% for a while so I would call it 0% on the dash. There are a few miles of remaining range left after the dash display goes to ---% if the battery cells are well balanced. It is clear that the dash displays are programmed to scare the driver into finding a charging station well before the car dies. There is more useable range left when my 2019 SL Plus dash display goes to ---% SOC than my previous cars had at the first low battery warning.

It should be noted that it is perfectly normal for LEAF Spy to report less than 100% at full charge. If the dash display only indicates 90% SOC after charging stops, then it is likely the cells are way out of balance so that charging stops early (when highest cell pair reaches maximum allowable voltage).

 

[LeftieBiker]

I should have been more clear. I'm talking about the Gen 1 Leaf, not the Leaf II.

 

[cwerdna]

Why is SOC inaccurate in LeafSpy?

As far as we know, the % SoC value in LeafSpy is more accurate. Leaf Spy simpler renders what's available via the CAN bus.

Nissan leaves some portion at the top and bottom of the battery inaccessible to the user.

'13+ Leafs that do have a % SoC display when they indicate 100% do not show 100% SoC via Leaf Spy. It's some value a few % less. The % SoC dash display was developed independently of Leaf Spy.

If you charge w/o any timers until the car stops by itself, you should see a certain # of gids on that "full" charge. It shouldn't vary that much and it will decrease as the battery degrades. That will be as full as it can get.

On 24 kWh Leaf on a new battery, it's ~281 (https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5582) to I think low 290's gids on a charge.

My 11 bar Leaf w/SOH around 79.xx% when I last charged to 100% (long ago) hit about 230ish to maybe 241 gids on a full charge.

To add to the above, since my Leaf is rarely driven and rarely charged (let alone to 100%) now due to COViD and other reasons, I did find a screenshot on my phone of what I believe was my Leaf fully charged. Leaf Spy is showing SOC in the lower left corner of the screen w/the cell/module voltages an SOC of 97.2%