Is this an insight into the 2014 Nissan Leaf?

[evnow]

If this were true, we would see Tesla Roadster and Volt owners in hot climates complain about range loss as much or perhaps even more than Leaf owners.

What part are you referring to ?

 

[surfingslovak]

If this were true, we would see Tesla Roadster and Volt owners in hot climates complain about range loss as much or perhaps even more than Leaf owners.

Hmmm ... TMS ?

Exactly. That's the point some of the posters were trying to make, I believe.

It's worth noting that Volt's cell chemistry is very similar to the Leaf, and yet we have not heard many complaints from owners. The Volt displays the usable battery capacity in kWh on the dash. Lithium manganese oxide (LMO) used in both the Leaf and the Volt is generally considered to be more heat sensitive than cobalt oxides, which the Tesla Roadster used.

I believe that GM and Nissan selected this particular chemistry because of its superior safety profile (no thermal runaway) and lower cost to manufacture (cobalt and nickel are expensive). Unfortunately, no spec sheets are available to the public for either the AESC or LG Chem cells, which makes direct comparison difficult.

What part are you referring to ?

Everything you wrote in the last post, since it's apparently based on conjecture and personal beliefs, not data. Please don't modify your posts without any notification or change reference. Not everyone has moderator rights or can understand what happened.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

So Nissan took the chemistry that is most susceptible to degradation in heat and then decided to not have TMS? WTH?

No. Nissan's chemsitry is fairly good thermally compared to the consumer cells.

Ofcourse you are going to see some degradation of batteries, irrespective of TMS. Just aging does that, for eg.

If this were true, we would see Tesla Roadster and Volt owners in hot climates complain about range loss as much or perhaps even more than Leaf owners.

Except that both Tesla and Chevy use active TMS, so the effect of hot climates is mitigated. If effective enough, these cars will only have to deal with calendar losses.

 

[aleph5]

Unfortunately, no spec sheets are available to the public for either the AESC or LG Chem cells, which makes direct comparison difficult.

Not as detailed as most of us probably would like, but:
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product.html

 

[surfingslovak]

Unfortunately, no spec sheets are available to the public for either the AESC or LG Chem cells, which makes direct comparison difficult.

Not as detailed as most of us probably would like, but:
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product.html

Yes, exactly, thanks for cross-posting that. This is the only information available, and it does not include cycling losses or the impact of temperature. Unless AESC added that data, which is doubtful.

There is a spec sheet for an older LG Chem cell design, but nothing to be found for the current generation of batteries used in the Volt.

 

[Herm]

There is an early AESC article from 2008 describing their 13Ah EV cells.. The Leaf uses 16.5Ah cells so a bit larger.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"AESC’s current EV battery is the L3-10, a 13 Ah, 3.6V laminated cell that uses the same footprint of the L3-3 cell. The material used in the L3-10 is the same as used for HEVs, but AESC thickened the electrode and increased the number of laminate layers to increase the capacity to 13 Ah.

The discharge rate characteristics of the cell are good because of its low resistance derived from the cell structure; the L3-10 shows high discharge power at a wide SOC range.

With the appropriate quick charge infrastructure, the L3-10 can be recharged to 90% SOC in 15 minutes, with a cell temperature increase of a maximum 8° C. The cell can reach 60% of capacity in 5 minutes.

Based on AESC’s testing, the cells will retain more than 80% capacity after 7 years, including 70,000 km (43,496 miles).

For the next-generation of EV cells, AESC is working on a new cathode material of a nickel-mixed Mn spinel and a graphite carbon anode. The cell will feature an enlarged footprint, but will be thinner to increase heat discharge, and have a capacity of 30 Ah."

 

[keydiver]

According to the rumor mill at AutoExrpess the 2014 Nissan Leaf will boast a whole lot more than the ability to recharge wirelessly: it will cost less , travel further and even be able to power your home.

The commercial that I saw yesterday for the first time touted this feature, being able to power your home with a LEAF. It makes me think Nissan is getting ready to introduce that feature here in the US.

 

[Stoaty]

Except that both Tesla and Chevy use active TMS, so the effect of hot climates is mitigated. If effective enough, these cars will only have to deal with calendar losses.

I don't know any reason why a good TMS would prevent cycling losses from occurring. Do you have data for this?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Except that both Tesla and Chevy use active TMS, so the effect of hot climates is mitigated. If effective enough, these cars will only have to deal with calendar losses.

I don't know any reason why a good TMS would prevent cycling losses from occurring. Do you have data for this?

I don't. I was really referring to temperature effects, although I guess I simply overlooked cycling losses.

However, since you called me out on this, I will point out that the Teslas and the Volt have a much gentler cycling than the Leaf. The Volt only uses about 11kWh out of 16kWh (versus 21 of 24 for the Leaf), so it does not push the battery as far to either extreme. As for Tesla, their batteries are so large that most of the time, people are only using a small percentage of them. I don't really know what percentage of their battery they actually use, so they may be spending a huge amount of time at the very high end.

 

[Stoaty]

However, since you called me out on this, I will point out that the Teslas and the Volt have a much gentler cycling than the Leaf.

My Leaf has very gentle cycling, most of the time going between 70-75% and 30-35%, it's just that the Volt enforces gentle cycling, and the Tesla probably doesn't need anything more than gentle cycling much of the time.

 

[TomT]

It's interesting since I generally use the range of 80% to 20% or so - deeper than you - and yet, your Gid loss would seem to be similar to mine, factoring in the difference in time (21 months), mileage (26,000) and that I also live in a hotter area than you (the Valley)...

My Leaf has very gentle cycling, most of the time going between 70-75% and 30-35%, it's just that the Volt enforces gentle cycling, and the Tesla probably doesn't need anything more than gentle cycling much of the time.

 

[Stoaty]

It's interesting since I generally use the range of 80% to 20% or so - deeper than you - and yet, your Gid loss would seem to be similar to mine, factoring in the difference in time (21 months), mileage (26,000) and that I also live in a hotter area than you (the Valley)...

Yes, but I do work in the Valley, so my Leaf is in the sun for 4 days a week year around. Also, while Gids are very useful for knowing about how much "fuel" you have left, I don't put much stock in Gids as a measure of capacity loss.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

I just spotted this.
According to the rumor mill at AutoExrpess the 2014 Nissan Leaf will boast a whole lot more than the ability to recharge wirelessly: it will cost less , travel further and even be able to power your home.

Citing an anonymous source at Nissan, AutoExpress claims the 2014 Nissan Leaf will feature a bigger, more powerful battery pack capable of giving the car a much better range. Combined with other improvements in the car’s design, the anonymous source said the Leaf will become even more affordable with an impressive drop in sticker price for the 2014 model.

Sounds like good news. What to do? Every year the next model is much better and less expensive. Lease or buy? I think lease the vehicle and give it back to them.

Sounds hugely and unrealistically optimistic, all this stuff, to be honest.

 

[TomT]

The range reduction I now have, though, does track fairly closely with the Gid loss...

Also, while Gids are very useful for knowing about how much "fuel" you have left, I don't put much stock in Gids as a measure of capacity loss.