I'm done with Quick Charging and Road Trips...

[FairwoodRed]

So this weekend, I decided to try out the West Coast Electric Highway and drive from Seattle to Portland in the morning and back in the evening. This is a fairly routine drive of 160 miles each way and a common daytrip here in the NorthWest.

But I was not expecting one missing Quick Charger to be so painful and certainly not expecting to have to deal with so much battery pack heat.

The missing charger was supposed to be near Longview, WA and it not being there means that the distance between chargers is 70 miles - most of that way under a 70 mph speed limit. That meant that I had to get a full charge on either side of that stretch. I opted to QC, and then to QC again to get from 80% to 100%.

And this is where the battery temp reared it's head. As I started the car, I noticed that the temp guage was at 9 bars. This took me totally by surprise as it was only 6 when I arrived at the charger. I had expected the temp to rise, but I wasn't ready for the sneak attack of "you look normal, now you look really hot" that the non-linear temp bars sets you up for.

I spent the rest of my trip, and the return home, watching my temp bars like a hawk and that didn't provide any rest or relaxation. I spent several hours in Portland (VooDoo = YUM) and tried to let the pack cool down some. It did, but not enough. At each charge station on the way home, I noted that the while the pack had cooled some while driving, it was higher than ever after charging. Towards the end, it was limiting both traction power and regen power.

It was interesting that it limited regen before traction, and to a higher degree. At one point I had lost 3 traction bubbles, but 4 regen bubbles. The system still had enough power for highway driving and I never got close to the missing bubbles.

Now I wonder about capacity loss. Prior to this trip, every day I started my commute at 281 gids. But my full charge the following day was only 252 gids. Boy did that elevate my anxiety! Reading this board has certainly put "pack ballancing" near the front of my mind, so I turned off my timers and this morning started out with 270 gids. I'm hoping that I can get back to 281 after a couple more days, but it might just be the price I'm paying for not turning this normal day trip into an overnighter.

Part of my decision to press on was Mark Perry's assertion last December that the BMS was smart enough to do whatever it needed to to protect itself. I can now see the implied "from major damage" and realize that it may have let me cause minor damage this weekend. But that was my decision, not Nissan's. I accepted the risk and I'll accept the consequences.

So what have I learned? A missing Quick Charger is a real PAIN! The temp guage goes from normal to hot all of a sudden. I'm not likely to ever use a QC, or travel outside my single charge range again. A minor day trip is no minor thing in a Leaf. I'll be taking my ICE on road trips in the future, but I might try the Leaf again if they fill that hole around Longview WA. If my pack temps go up like this last time, I will abort my journey and be done with Leaf roadtrips for good.

Finally, Below is some of the data the I gathered from my trip. Notably missing is the temp bars and no one regrets that more that me!

Kent, WA to Tumwater, WA 54.8 miles. 183 gids. 62 min driving. 25 min L3 charging.
Tumwater, WA to Centralia, WA 21.9 miles. 77 gids. 24 min driving. 43 min L3 charging.
Centralia, WA to Ridgefield, WA 71.2 miles. 241 gids. 76 min driving. 18 min L3 charging (stopped early).
Ridgefield, WA to Portland, OR 22.0 miles. 92 gids. 32 min driving. 5 min L2 & L3 token charging.
Portland, OR to Ridgefield, WA 22.0 miles. 90 gids. 34 min driving. 20 min L3 & 55 min L3 charging.
Ridgefield, WA to Centralia, WA 69.0 miles. 241 gids. 70 min driving. 22 min L3 charging (stopped early).
Centralia, WA to Tumwater, WA 20.7 miles. 68 gids. 27 min driving. 16 min L3 charging (stopped early).
Tumwater, WA to Kent, WA 58 miles. 171 gids. 69 min driving. Overnight timer charge.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I think part of the problem with your temp surprise is that bars 5 to 8 are wide range. I expect you started your trip with 5 bars which probably was somewhere about 70F considering weather for that day. Two light QC charges increased your temp to around 95 which is still bar 6. Long QC added another 35F and that how you jumped from 6 to 9 bars. It take a while to cool battery down. Last nigh I run AC in my garage for more than 4 h to get battery from 81 to 72F
edit
this is what I accomplished - high for the day was 95 low 80 car driven for 20 miles in the morning

 

[Herm]

making the Leaf a highway cruiser in the vast United States is a bit silly, much better chance of doing that in Britain with their cool weather, small size and large network of fast chargers.. plus $8 a gallon for gasoline

I really hope your battery comes back up to 100%, doing that trip at 55mph would have gained you a bit more time for the batteries to cool, and a lower power draw from the battery.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

FWR; your concern is valid to a point. we are in the very early stages of the public charging game. i know its hard to believe but our area is light years ahead of most of the country and most of the country will eventually have an effective QC network.

now, as far as the viability of QC'ing long distances, the big stretch you had would not have helped your battery situation. in March an Oregonian did the stretch in S. OR when it first opened

he QC'd every 25 miles (as it should be here) because the station was there. it was rainy, the temps were in the 40's and his batt still got to 9 bars.

now, the fact that he had to burn batts to keep himself warm really illustrates Nissan's oversight in CC and pack temp control which will be addressed (we think) in the 2013's

so all in all; we are still on the cutting (with a bit of bleed) edge of this whole EV thing. after all, other than a small handful of companies; it really hasnt even started for many auto manufacturers. so maybe Ford did it right. they waited saw what Nissan and Tesla had to put up with then designed a temp management control system for ALL critical components of the electromotive system including the battery pack.

was it a mistake to get a Leaf? should we have waited an additional 18 months to get the Focus?

i, for one am VERY happy where i am now.

 

[Randy3]

I've taken several day trips in my LEAF, but none using a QC yet. The QC's simply aren't in my area. Instead, I'm limited to using L2 either at Nissan dealers, RV parks, or (a few times) public stations.

From your post, and some others, I'm seeing that it may be better to use the L2 instead of QC if I can handle the time requirements. In the past, I've mumbled to myself, "I want QC, I want QC!" I'm not mumbling that so much anymore. Instead, it's back to the manta that to slow down is to get there faster.

 

[CWO4Mann]

FWR; your concern is valid to a point. we are in the very early stages of the public charging game. i know its hard to believe but our area is light years ahead of most of the country and most of the country will eventually have an effective QC network.

now, as far as the viability of QC'ing long distances, the big stretch you had would not have helped your battery situation. in March an Oregonian did the stretch in S. OR when it first opened

he QC'd every 25 miles (as it should be here) because the station was there. it was rainy, the temps were in the 40's and his batt still got to 9 bars.

now, the fact that he had to burn batts to keep himself warm really illustrates Nissan's oversight in CC and pack temp control which will be addressed (we think) in the 2013's

so all in all; we are still on the cutting (with a bit of bleed) edge of this whole EV thing. after all, other than a small handful of companies; it really hasnt even started for many auto manufacturers. so maybe Ford did it right. they waited saw what Nissan and Tesla had to put up with then designed a temp management control system for ALL critical components of the electromotive system including the battery pack.

was it a mistake to get a Leaf? should we have waited an additional 18 months to get the Focus?

i, for one am VERY happy where i am now.

Your question, " ... was it a mistake to get a Leaf? ..." Could be answered a couple of ways. Yes, it was a mistake if you thought that you would be able to drive it around on trips the same as an ICE. It is not a mistake if you are one who plans to use the Leaf for local -- 50 mile radius -- driving. It is wise to examine and understand the limitations of any vehicle compared to the requirements for load, passengers, range and economy. The Leaf is not a highway cruiser and there is no practicable way to make it one. I think we should all get rid of the idea, once and for all, that we are not now or in the near future going to hop in the Leaf and drive from coast to coast. It is not realistic to expect a manufacturer to produce a vehicle which can do that without the infra structure to support it. The ICE is designed to drive from coast to coast and back again; it has the infrastructure, fueling points every few miles. The Leaf is designed to make a maximum 100 mile one-way trip or a maximum 50 mile radius trip. Yes, I know there will be folks who will debate all kinds of thing which I have just stated, so remember "your mileage may vary" (YMMV)

Dave

 

[rpmdk]

I completely agree with CWO4Mann.

5 or 10 years from now these sorts of trips will be no problem - for us, the first generation of mass produced EVs these are adventures, and not the sort I want to be spending my time on.

I love my LEAF, and I have no regrets spending my money to help EVs become part of our energy solution, but I can't wait to trade it in for one with better range.

 

[smkettner]

Well there is a difference between 6+ QC in one day vs only L2 overnight.
One or two QC per day might be a practical maximum and does get you well beyond the 50 mile radius.

 

[ztanos]

That's quite the magic trick. You just made your door a jar. :lol:

 

[saywatt]

Thanks for sharing your experience FWR. If what you did caused irreparable battery damage, I would think by now Nissan has toasted several packs used in the supposed continuous AZ test runs I've read about in this forum and surely they would have issued an alert out by now—especially since they know OR and WA now have a sizable, if not the largest, QC infrastructure in the country.

I've brought this up before, but the manual (I know, WT? reads it) says 1QC per day and yes, I've also heard Mark Perry's remarks about battery temp being key to # of QCs and the BMS will protect the car— but the bottom line is one is written and the other is verbal (recorded in video forever or not). My point is that many of us, self included, like to experiment with our Leafs but we are doing it at our own risk and hopefully to the benefit of others and not with expense to ourselves.

As time permits, I will continue to utilize the WA QC infrastructure, knowing the Leaf was not built for it. But through yours and others experiences, I will learn when to "pull over".

It will be interesting how Tony Williams does today as he travels through OR and tomorrow, WA utilizing mostly QC along the way.

One last comment regarding your quote:

The missing charger was supposed to be near Longview, WA and it not being there means that the distance between chargers is 70 miles - most of that way under a 70 mph speed limit.

What is "way under 70 mph"? It has been my experience, traveling up steep grades, that there is a huge difference between 50 mph and 55 to 60 mph - as in 2 - 3 power bubbles.—not that I want to drive 50 in a 70 again any time soon either! :shock: Also, I have not driven over 60 for any length of time

 

[grommet]

I've brought this up before, but the manual (I know, WT? reads it) says 1QC per day and yes, I've also heard Mark Perry's remarks about battery temp being key to # of QCs and the BMS will protect the car— but the bottom line is one is written and the other is verbal (recorded in video forever or not).

The current manual now says:

"Quick charging is possible (even several times a day) if the battery temperature is not near the red zone. If the battery temperature reaches the red zone, in order to protect the battery, quick charging is not allowed and the power limitation mode will be triggered."

 

[camasleaf]

he QC'd every 25 miles (as it should be here) because the station was there. it was rainy, the temps were in the 40's and his batt still got to 9 bars.

Yes, but he mostly QC at high SOC. Maybe it is different if you do multiple QCs from 1-2 bars to 8-10 bars.

It will be interesting how Tony Williams does today as he travels through OR and tomorrow, WA utilizing mostly QC along the way.

I also follow his tavel with interest, and want to hear his opinion about the QC network.

As for my plans, for now, no trips that require more than 1 QC each way, with L2 or L3 at the destination. That limits me to about 300 miles round trip. But what I want is to see the QC in the city limits so I can drive until I see 1-2 bars, have QC winth in 5-6 miles, go charge for 20 minutes and keep driving as needed. In city driving I would not imagine I would ever need to QC more than twice a day even when the battery capacity drops to 70%.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

edit: should have read 260 miles, not 160...

this past weekend I did 7 QC's in one day heading out to Wenatchee from Shoreline, totaling 260 miles, started with 5 temp bars and maintained 6-7 the rest of the trip. I aimed to charge in the middle of the pack, opting for more shorter QC's. After heading down Steven's pass on the way back I started a QC with 7 temp bars and by the end of the QC I was surprised to see 6 temp bars... the pack actually appears to have cooled during the QC (perhaps because I coasted most of the way down the Pass). While I have not done the Seattle to Portland route yet, (planning on this weekend) I have done lots of QCing since the stations were first open here and I have a few observations to make about QCing, fast driving and battery temp. From what I can tell so far, It's not the number of QC's that necessarily leads to a hot battery, it's the combination of continuous fast highway driving, which is only possible because of the QC's, and QCing. I found early on that if I drove 70-80 mph between QC's (which I have to admit is a lot of fun!) that the battery would start out a bit warmer from the QC but then not cool off in between, gradually accumulating heat with successive charging and driving. My conclusion is that if you are going to QC multiple times, you must manage power use and battery temp and adjust accordingly. If the battery is warmer than you'd like, slow down. this both increases the time between QC's and reduces heating from driving fast. Driving 55 to 65 may turn out to be more important on long road trips when you are QC'ing frequently with little idle time.

 

[GRA]

edit: should have read 260 miles, not 160...

this past weekend I did 7 QC's in one day heading out to Wenatchee from Shoreline, totaling 260 miles, started with 5 temp bars and maintained 6-7 the rest of the trip. I aimed to charge in the middle of the pack, opting for more shorter QC's. After heading down Steven's pass on the way back I started a QC with 7 temp bars and by the end of the QC I was surprised to see 6 temp bars... the pack actually appears to have cooled during the QC (perhaps because I coasted most of the way down the Pass). While I have not done the Seattle to Portland route yet, (planning on this weekend) I have done lots of QCing since the stations were first open here and I have a few observations to make about QCing, fast driving and battery temp. From what I can tell so far, It's not the number of QC's that necessarily leads to a hot battery, it's the combination of continuous fast highway driving, which is only possible because of the QC's, and QCing. I found early on that if I drove 70-80 mph between QC's (which I have to admit is a lot of fun!) that the battery would start out a bit warmer from the QC but then not cool off in between, gradually accumulating heat with successive charging and driving. My conclusion is that if you are going to QC multiple times, you must manage power use and battery temp and adjust accordingly. If the battery is warmer than you'd like, slow down. this both increases the time between QC's and reduces heating from driving fast. Driving 55 to 65 may turn out to be more important on long road trips when you are QC'ing frequently with little idle time.

What I take from the above is that at least with LiMnO chemistry, if you want to use QC regularly and cruise at freeway speeds, you'd better buy a BEV with an active TMS. Of course, there aren't any yet that have that combo (possibly excepting the i? Not sure of its battery chemistry).

 

[RegGuheert]

Now I wonder about capacity loss. Prior to this trip, every day I started my commute at 281 gids. But my full charge the following day was only 252 gids. Boy did that elevate my anxiety! Reading this board has certainly put "pack ballancing" near the front of my mind, so I turned off my timers and this morning started out with 270 gids. I'm hoping that I can get back to 281 after a couple more days, but it might just be the price I'm paying for not turning this normal day trip into an overnighter.

I am going to predict that you have not lost any battery capacity, or only a very small amount like 1 GID. It appears to me that the BMS is applying some sort of running average on the temperature over the past few days and restricting the max SOC based on that. If so, then you should see it allow your battery to return close to 281 GIDs after your trip is farther in the past.

This data also tends to agree with the seasonality we saw with TickTock's GID numbers when they increased slightly last fall as it cooled off some in Phoenix. This could also explain why LEAFs tend to lose the first capacity bar at the onset of hot weather. So perhaps 3 or 4 percent or so of the capacity "loss" in Phoenix and Texas is just the BMS doing its thing. Here's hoping, anyway!

 

[jkirkebo]

What I take from the above is that at least with LiMnO chemistry, if you want to use QC regularly and cruise at freeway speeds, you'd better buy a BEV with an active TMS. Of course, there aren't any yet that have that combo (possibly excepting the i? Not sure of its battery chemistry).

The Tesla Model S 60kWh and 85kWh support QC and has active TMS. The chemistry is however not LiMnO.

 

[Stanton]

I totally agree with the thread title, which is why I didn't buy the QC port anyway. I'll repeat what's (basically) already been said: the Leaf is an EXCELLENT local/commuter car and if we need to take a road trip, we'll take my wife's ICE car.

 

[Herm]

The Tesla Model S 60kWh and 85kWh support QC and has active TMS. The chemistry is however not LiMnO.

for durability issues the 40kWh version does not support QC and it still has an active TMS.. the 40 and 60 use the typical cobalt chemistry. All this is just speculation from the Tesla forums.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I totally agree with the thread title, which is why I didn't buy the QC port anyway. I'll repeat what's (basically) already been said: the Leaf is an EXCELLENT local/commuter car and if we need to take a road trip, we'll take my wife's ICE car.

i have to say i do to. BUT...

i am in Olympia which is 110 miles from Portland, 60 miles from downtown Seattle. neither destination can be reached without charging. BOTH ARE EASILY done with QC.

my other option is to hope that L2 is near my destinations and that i have at least 4 hours to plug in if going to Seattle (have done this option about 5 times and it has always required an adjustment to my plans i can accept but SO would not)

with QC, i can stop off for 20-25 minutes. i only charge the bottom 2/3 of the pack and the reason why? the first 7-8 Kwh run in at the rate of 105-150 seconds each and only minimally heat up the battery pack.

i timed Kwh #11 the other day and it took 252 seconds and the rate was decelerating. granted "#11" is relative and all dependent upon where i started at which was like 20% SOC. but found that charging that last 20-25% SOC was not all that beneficial to me.

i now REALLY know that OR did it right by putting them 25 miles apart which allows you to hit every other one. WA needs to do some filling in here

now, does this mean i am forced to do this? no. i have a Prius that has less than 40,000 miles on it so its not like we need to preserve it. (10,000 miles was basically a result of 3 long trips, the rest is pretty much a 64 mile RT commute 90% freeway)

now, we go to Salem a lot and although we could Leaf it, that will probably not happen. that is too many charging stops and Salem is a day trip about 3/4ths of the time.

 

[JeremyW]

I've brought this up before, but the manual (I know, WT? reads it) says 1QC per day and yes, I've also heard Mark Perry's remarks about battery temp being key to # of QCs and the BMS will protect the car— but the bottom line is one is written and the other is verbal (recorded in video forever or not).

The current manual now says:

"Quick charging is possible (even several times a day) if the battery temperature is not near the red zone. If the battery temperature reaches the red zone, in order to protect the battery, quick charging is not allowed and the power limitation mode will be triggered."

My only thought with this, is that the temp sensors only are on the parameter of the pack and it seems like it takes a while for the heat to "move" to them, so there may be some dangerous over-temp happening before the car decides the pack is too hot and stops the QC.

Pure speculation though. I was hoping that no TMS would be ok for these batts. Sadly, engineering teaches there is no free lunch. :evil: However, things like pre-warming the pack in winter and of course cooling the pack in hot weather/during QC would extend their lifetime and increase range.

The Mitsubishi I-MiEV does run its fans during quick charge. I think the volt has something like 12 sensors and of course an active TMS. My prediction is that most volt batteries will last longer then 10 years. :roll:

Jeremy