I beginnig to think that Nissan is using the Leaf as a

[GetOffYourGas]

I'm not sure how much of a head start Nissan will really have. Everyone else seems to be leapfrogging them with their offerings.

Yes, I know somebody will come back at me and say "those are compliance cars only - no comparison", but they are put into customers' hands nonetheless. If Nissan had taken their time to really test these cars, they still wouldn't be selling EVs, at least nationwide. It really takes time to figure these things out. Nissan took the lead by selling EVs first whereas many other companies took their time to do the research and design. One positive spin of Nissan taking the lead is that the have forced others to actually produce cars instead of concept after concept. Unfortunately, they have been held back by their mistakes whereas the competition now has a chance to learn from Nissan's (costly) mistakes.

Nissan most certainly took a gamble by being first. Maybe it will be a disaster with all these warranty claims. Or maybe it will be a small enough percentage of cars to not dramatically hurt their bottom line. Ultimately, only Nissan knows the answer to that.

Who is leapfrogging? I don't see a single example yet. NIssan would not do what they are doing if it did not make sense for them financially.

Depends on what you want.

TMS? Off the top of my head, I only know of Nissan building a car without it. And since this is the #1 concern to BEV drivers, I would say this is where most are leapfrogging Nissan.

Performance and handling? There's the Ford Focus, Fiat 500e, Honda Fit, Chevy Spark - all have reviewers glowing about better performance.

Cost? Certainly the Spark is cheaper to buy. Most others are on parity if you lease ~ $199/mo.

Practicality? Only Tesla can really touch Nissan here. Like dm33 said, most others are conversions, so an automatic compromise of cargo volume.

I'm sure I'm missing other dimensions, but hopefully you see my point now?

 

[RegGuheert]

TMS? Off the top of my head, I only know of Nissan building a car without it.

EVs without TMS will eventually be the norm. Nissan is ahead of the curve here. Unfortunately, they are ahead of the current state of battery technology, as well. Hopefully that will change within the next couple of years.

And since this is the #1 concern to BEV drivers, I would say this is where most are leapfrogging Nissan.

TMS is NOT the #1 concern of BEV drivers. If it were, the LEAF would not be outselling all those other BEVs with TMS.

 

[evnow]

I'm not sure how much of a head start Nissan will really have. Everyone else seems to be leapfrogging them with their offerings.

LOL. You certainly don't understand the market.

There is a reason why USSR could send a man to space but couldn't make decent shoes. It is also the reason why tons of new stuff die in labs. It is called "scale".

Nissan is the only company that has figured out how to make & sell EVs in volume at a low price. They are actually so good at it, Ford with their FFE didn't even want to try to compete.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm not sure how much of a head start Nissan will really have. Everyone else seems to be leapfrogging them with their offerings.

LOL. You certainly don't understand the market.

.

+1

 

[GRA]

I'm not sure how much of a head start Nissan will really have. Everyone else seems to be leapfrogging them with their offerings.

LOL. You certainly don't understand the market.

There is a reason why USSR could send a man to space but couldn't make decent shoes. It is also the reason why tons of new stuff die in labs. It is called "scale".

Nissan is the only company that has figured out how to make & sell EVs in volume at a low price. They are actually so good at it, Ford with their FFE didn't even want to try to compete.

The only thing proven by this is that Nissan is willing to sell lots of cars at a loss (as Toyota did with the Prius) to establish a market, and the others aren't. None of the 1st gen. cars are likely to make a profit, possibly excepting Tesla (well, they're really gen. 2). Nissan didn't expect to make a profit with the 1st gen. Leaf any more than Chevy did with the Volt. Ironically, with the plunge in the value of the yen against the dollar, it might well be cheaper to produce the Leaf in Japan now, and Nissan wouldn't have had to pay all the start-up costs associated with the Tennessee plant.

 

[RegGuheert]

Ironically, with the plunge in the value of the yen against the dollar, it might well be cheaper to produce the Leaf in Japan now, and Nissan wouldn't have had to pay all the start-up costs associated with the Tennessee plant.

Perhaps, but as you say, maximizing profits does not seem to be Nissan's focus for the Gen 1 LEAF. I think they are choosing to take advantage of government monies that they can access to allow them to tool up for worldwide EV production (including batteries) on a massive scale. In that way, they can quickly ramp production to meet demand if there is an increase in demand for EVs (due to one or more of a number of possible reasons).

 

[JimSouCal]

costly experiment for the future ... They are still going full throttle will sales and leases, even tho the cars batteries are showing a weakness for durability in the heat ...
Unless I miss a upgrade in the cooling system for the batteries for 2013, im scratching my head in what this is going to cost Nissan in the long run to get everyone's batteries fixed in a few years..

As predicted doing the winter, the battery bar losses were going to break a record this summer ...I hit -3 bars in May and expect -4 any day now by looking @ my miles per charge ..

If it was not for the battery degradation, I would give the Leaf a score of a perfect 10 ...

Well....based upon my climate/charging procedures/driving habits, and my results after 2yrs, I expect to have 70+ % battery capacity after 10 years. So, don't just lump me in your "get everyone's batteries fixed" group. If I had to do it again, I would BUY my Leaf in a heartbeat. Not everyone's situation is like PHX,PSP, etc.

+1 I had expectations of battery loss that have been exceeded so far. I was ready to buy a Miles Electric car that used lead acid deep cycle and with the upgraded AC inverter motor at one point. So... LEAF is mostly fine for me as long as I can drive it 50 city (40 highway) miles before needing a charge.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I'm not sure how much of a head start Nissan will really have. Everyone else seems to be leapfrogging them with their offerings.

LOL. You certainly don't understand the market.

.

+1

Did either of you actually read the rest of my post, or just roll your eyes based on what you assumed I was talking about, and left it at that?

I'm clearly referring to technology, not marketability. Or maybe that wasn't so clear. Yes, Nissan has nailed down the supply chain and production aspects, and that's no small feat. But their competition has outdone them engineering-wise in several areas. See also my previous post.

TMS? Off the top of my head, I only know of Nissan building a car without it.

EVs without TMS will eventually be the norm. Nissan is ahead of the curve here. Unfortunately, they are ahead of the current state of battery technology, as well. Hopefully that will change within the next couple of years.

And since this is the #1 concern to BEV drivers, I would say this is where most are leapfrogging Nissan.

TMS is NOT the #1 concern of BEV drivers. If it were, the LEAF would not be outselling all those other BEVs with TMS.

All valid points. Unfortunately, like you said, today's battery technology is not ready to go without TMS. Therefore Nissan is behind the curve in caring for their battery.

True, TMS in itself is not a concern of BEV drivers. However, the ability for the car to withstand one's local climate and last more than 2 years certainly is. Today, in places like AZ, that means TMS. In 10 years from now, if batteries are significantly more heat-resistant, then that's an entirely different ball game.