How's your 12v battery health?

[RegGuheert]

RegGuheert: Thank you for your comments! I agree that it appears the Leaf's battery is not being charged in a manner to maximize its life. BTW I personally would be happy if the battery lasts 4 or 5 years (we shall see), but only 3 years I would be less so. Do you have a sense for how long the battery might last on average if it were optimally charged?

That depends on the temperature where you live, but I think looking at the life of a typical 12V battery in a hybrid car is a good proxy for what we SHOULD expect. Our Honda Civic Hybrid came with a smaller battery, but that one lasted about seven years. This seems to be about the same lifetime we get from all our car batteries around here. I've read that people in Phoenix expect to replace their car batteries every two or three years.

Do you think there may be other considerations, such as trying to reduce electrolyte depletion together with hydrogen gas generation?

Yes, that is a consideration. But it seems that the LEAF battery was chosen (designed?) with that consideration in mind. It comes with about 2" of electrolyte above the plates. As such, a lot of hydrogen gas can be lost before it needs more water.

I don't recall checking electrolyte level being one of the periodic maintenance checks, so do you think if the Leaf were optimally charged it would likely require distilled water be added at some point?

It is certainly designed to be easily watered. One thing I like about this battery is that it is translucent and as a result the electrolyte levels can be checked very easily. I simply use a short-handled flashlight ot shine light through the battery from behind and the level can be clearly seen.

Finally, do you see battery deterioration being a more or less gradual process of declining voltage at start-up (until it is eventually insufficient), or is there a significant chance of a sudden decline (like if a cell shorts out) which might not be anticipated in time by battery replacement?

It is very much like the Li-ion battery in our LEAFs: the voltage range stays the same as the battery deteriorates, but the capacity diminishes and the internal resistance increases. Since it doesn't take much to start a LEAF, I expect the battery will lose capacity over time and then one day it will not work, or worse, there will be system malfunctions, such as has been reported with the brakes. Likely this will occur after the car has sat for a couple of days. With a degraded battery, the voltage will drop more rapidly.

I think Reddy may be onto something when he says that his battery likely will be fine since he takes frequent short trips in his LEAF. That very well may result in better 12V battery life since I think the main issue with charge depletion is the small current that flows when our LEAFs are OFF. It seems to me that the LEAF charger may only be accounting for charge lost while in ACC or ON modes and ignores the at least some of the losses that occur when the vehicle is OFF. As a result, whenever we leave our LEAFs sitting longer than overnight, the charge level drops and never seems to be recovered.

The disturbing thing is that there has been more than one report on here of braking failures in the LEAF that were attributed to low 12V battery voltage. My presumption is that there was miscommunication on the CANbus that occured when the voltage dropped too low. One of those reports indicated that the voltage was around 10.5V (roughly the voltage you would expect with one cell shorted), which is not particularly low considering most cars drop below this level when starting. If these reports are true, then we may see more braking issues as our 12V batteries age. In this sense, monitoring the voltage before starting the car seems very prudent.

The good news is that you can eliminate most of the premature degradation by simply fully charging the battery before the lead sulfate hardens. I have read reports that this can happen in just a few days in a very hot climate, but I assume it takes a week or more in a more temperate situation. That's why I try to top it off every week or so. If you combine that with checking the electrolyte every six months or so, you should be able to get good service from your 12V battery.

 

[69800]

I put a volt meter in the acc outlet and told my wife to start watching how long it stays at 14.4 before it drops on here 20 mile commute. I have noticed that the 2 year old battery never seems to have a full charge. For the last 2 weeks she said it never stayed at 14.4 for more than a few minutes. Then suddenly today she said she left work and it stayed at 14.4 the whole way home. WTF????
This charge profile is not going to work. I am willing to bet if anyone with a 2 year old battery or older would go have a proper load test done they would find the battery would not pass. Something is very wrong with the charging algorithm.

 

[Nhinman]

Just bought my Leaf. In reading the issues with the 12V battery, I just wanted to bring up something that came to mind. In the holiday advertisements, Walmart is advertising a Whistler Jump & Go charger for about $60. It is a small lithium ion battery made to jump start cars. I have noticed some other brands of similar products in other stores. I bought one. I haven't tried it yet but it should be sufficient for starting the Leaf with battery problems. I saw a video of someone jump starting an ICE car about 3 times in a row with one. It's really small and light. I plan on keeping it in the bag with the L1 charger after I have tested it.

 

[mwalsh]

2 years on from the original post, and 4 years in service total, my factory 12v battery is still doing the job.

 

[RegGuheert]

I put a volt meter in the acc outlet and told my wife to start watching how long it stays at 14.4 before it drops on here 20 mile commute. I have noticed that the 2 year old battery never seems to have a full charge. For the last 2 weeks she said it never stayed at 14.4 for more than a few minutes. Then suddenly today she said she left work and it stayed at 14.4 the whole way home. WTF????
This charge profile is not going to work. I am willing to bet if anyone with a 2 year old battery or older would go have a proper load test done they would find the battery would not pass. Something is very wrong with the charging algorithm.

I have seen our LEAF charge its 12V battery for 20 or more minutes, but it is a rare occurrence. My guess is that your 12V battery was *very* low when she started it up, and that prompted the charger to do something different, but I don't know.

I haven't put our LEAF's battery on the 12V charger for a couple of months and went out and checked it the other day after the car had sat resting for about 24 hours or so: 12.19V. Typical of what the LEAF seems to "maintain" it at in our usage pattern. I put it on the BatteryMinder 1500 and it almost immediately went up over 14V (with a 1.5A charge), which tells me that the battery must be badly sulfated. But that little charger managed to bring the voltage down into the middle of the 13s while still in bulk charging mode before eventually going back up to 14.5 and then getting to the point where it dropped down to float.

I need to leave that battery on the desulfator for some time to let it do its thing.

 

[Nubo]

2 years on from the original post, and 4 years in service total, my factory 12v battery is still doing the job.

I think the problems are related to usage patterns, particularly long periods of time plugged-in after charge completion.
Mine was pretty weak before I replaced it in my 2012; down to about 11.7V and dedicated charger did not recover it. In addition to going with a deep-cycle battery I've taken to unplugging the car on Saturday mornings to avoid the possibility of sitting a full weekend in the plugged-in-but-not-charging state.

Truthfully, I think lots of modern cars would benefit from deep-cycle 12V. Personally I prefer AGM style just from the standpoint of avoiding acid and corrosion under the hood. Or, under the rear seat in the case of my 1st VW, which resulted in the demise of the floor pan; much to my surprise when I lifted the seat only to find the battery sitting on a piece of plywood over a football-sized hole.

Admittedly, the OEM hadn't resulted in any corrosion; perhaps the mild charge algorithm in the LEAF doesn't lead to much gassing in the battery. I've wondered if corrosion avoidance is the actual reason the car seems to undercharge. Free acid under the hood of an EV would seem to be a Bad Thing.

 

[RegGuheert]

I think the problems are related to usage patterns, particularly long periods of time plugged-in after charge completion.

I agree it is related to usage patterns. It seems the car keeps the 12V battery topped up only in the case of daily (or nearly daily) use. In my case, the car is only plugged in when charging, as we have stopped using all of the charging timers. Still, it sits sometimes for days at a time and the algorithms in the car do not seem to account for the charge that was lost while the car was sitting idle.

Basically in our usage model the charging that gets done is whatever naturally occurs at a voltage of 13.1V. My estimation is that that voltage tends to charge the battery up to about 50% SOC.

13.1V would be fine as a float voltage if the 14.4V level was maintained long enough to fully charge the battery first. Unfortunately, it is not.

 

[69800]

RegGuheert is on the right track.


I put a volt meter in the acc outlet and told my wife to start watching how long it stays at 14.4 before it drops on here 20 mile commute. I have noticed that the 2 year old battery never seems to have a full charge. For the last 2 weeks she said it never stayed at 14.4 for more than a few minutes. Then suddenly today she said she left work and it stayed at 14.4 the whole way home. WTF???? Once in 2 weeks????

This charge profile is not going to work. I am willing to bet if anyone with a 2 year old battery or older would go have a proper load test done they would find the battery would not pass. Something is very wrong with the charging algorithm.

Now I have a few comments to add.
1. We know the onboard dc to dc charge system is not working

2. The original batteries in the 2011 2012 cars were manufactured in Japan and they are a much higher quality battery.

3. 99% of the batteries made in the US are Johnson Controls which are Junk! I am sure the Smyna plant is using one of these.

4. In the US only East Penn/Decka , Enyersys, Trojan, Concord and a few other make the highest quality batteries in the US. They are the ones who make the AGM batteries. I will not use anything from Johnson Controls. Delco used to be great until Johnson got them too.

5. Someone suggested a deep cycle style battery and I think that would be very wise if you can find one that fits.

6. Installing an onboard charger that puts out say around 5 or 6 amps hardwired to run during L1 or L2 recharge time would be excellent. (preferably a desulphater type) I am going to look into this along with a deep cycle battery. By the way Optima used to be great until Johnson Control bought them. Now they are hit and miss. (many only last 2 years) The old one in my diesel tractor is 14 years old but it was an original Optima

7. Do not wait for Nissan to solve your problem. I doubt it will happen.

8. The lithiums were a consideration but they need to be held at a much higher voltage than the leaf will give them so they are out. Show me a lithium that is 4 years old in a leaf and I will reconsider this one.

9. The only other option is to buy a cheap battery and replace it every 2 years.

My Two Cents

PS This is kind of what I am thinking. Wheelchair batteries need to be good. Amazon


VMAX857 AGM Deep Cycle Group U1 Battery Replacement for Interstate DCS-33H, DCS33H 12V 35Ah Wheelchair Battery
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I am also considering this Exide Edge AGM battery. $160 with a 4 year free replacement warrenty. Looks like and exact fit however most battery sites are not up to date with the leaf. Fits the Prius. Agm has a much lower self discharge that wet cells.

http://www.amazon.com/Exide-FP-AGM51R-Sealed-Automotive-Battery/dp/B00AAX3KXG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Exide Edge FP-AGM51R Flat Plate AGM Sealed Automotive Battery
by Exide

 

[QueenBee]

This charge profile is not going to work. I am willing to bet if anyone with a 2 year old battery or older would go have a proper load test done they would find the battery would not pass. Something is very wrong with the charging algorithm.

9. The only other option is to buy a cheap battery and replace it every 2 years.

When had my tires replaced a couple months ago they tested the battery and said it passed, no idea what device they used.

In any case I'm at 3.5 years and have not had a single battery problem so I'd definitely add an option of don't do anything until it's a problem which has been working well for me thus far and I'm sure it also has worked well for the vast majority of LEAF owners.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Harbor Freight has Xmas special with portable jump box for $39.99

now a lot of you will complain that Harbor Freight has sub par products but I have gone thru 2 of these since 2004 and mine just died this week (charging RC Helicopter btw...) so I will go get another. They seem to last 3-5 years each despite enduring long periods of inactivity.

 

[Turnover]

Read the posts over. We've have had the Leaf two years.

I haven't had any problem, but in attempting to take a close look (as someone suggested) at the electrolyte level with a flashlight shine through the case, I could see the plates but not the fluid. I removed the plugs and did a visual though the holes. All plates were covered, but it seemed the fluid was on the low side. Borrowed my wife's baster and put about 3-4 oz in each of the six holes and got it looking about right. After I did this I still couldn't see the electrolyte though the translucent case, but now am confident the level is okay.

 

[pchilds]

Harbor Freight has Xmas special with portable jump box for $39.99

now a lot of you will complain that Harbor Freight has sub par products but I have gone thru 2 of these since 2004 and mine just died this week (charging RC Helicopter btw...) so I will go get another. They seem to last 3-5 years each despite enduring long periods of inactivity.

Look for the $37.99 coupon. :lol:

 

[LeftieBiker]

Those things are big and very heavy. You can get a lithium version for about $50, IIRC, that weighs less than half as much. I lugged one of those around for years in an ICE car, and while it did indeed last a long time, I didn't regret it when it died.

 

[joerivct]

I bought the Antigravity Jump Starter - very nice product, about $100.

However I have been intrigued about using one of their lithium iron batteries when the 12 v dies - anyone using these?

http://antigravitybatteries.com/

 

[mwalsh]

Harbor Freight has Xmas special with portable jump box for $39.99

now a lot of you will complain that Harbor Freight has sub par products but I have gone thru 2 of these since 2004 and mine just died this week (charging RC Helicopter btw...) so I will go get another. They seem to last 3-5 years each despite enduring long periods of inactivity.

Look for the $37.99 coupon.

20% off coupon...you'll get it for $32.02

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

picked it up yesterday and its a MUCH heavier one than the previous versions so hoping it will last as long. the previous ones lasted 4-6 years each keeping in mind, I think I started two cars with one, none with the other and I am afraid I do not maintain the batteries as I should as they do tend to sit unused for long periods of time. The new one does have a tag on it that I will leave attached that recommends giving it a full charge once a month. If it lasts 5 years, I will have to feel I made money on the deal.

Plus now that my Son is older and has a handful of electronic devices, the box will be doing double duty charging my phone plus his game players!

 

[Nhinman]

I bought the Antigravity Jump Starter - very nice product, about $100.

However I have been intrigued about using one of their lithium iron batteries when the 12 v dies - anyone using these?

http://antigravitybatteries.com/

I bought 1 of the Whistler units that Walmart has on sale for about $60. It's small and light.

I was wondering the same thing about a replacement for the 12V battery. Aren't the larger anti-gravity lithium batteries pretty expensive?? Would it have to have the same amp capacity has the stock lead acid battery??

 

[DaveInAvl]

Here's another data point:

2014 SL, 11.5 months, 7200 miles, parked outside in Asheville NC.
After sitting overnight on its own: 12.48V.

 

[QueenBee]

Here's another data point:

2014 SL, 11.5 months, 7200 miles, parked outside in Asheville NC.
After sitting overnight on its own: 12.48V.

I'm still sticking to the idea that any voltage measurements need to be done after fully charging the battery and the disconnecting it to let it rest. Then after some time at rest measuring the voltage.

FWIW my 12v battery is now 4 years old and still going strong. Been a while since I've had a digital load tester put on it though.

 

[mwalsh]

its not like LAX has skylights in their parking lots

Sure they do, but they're all on the top floor.