How Much Would You Be Willing To Pay For An L3 Charge?

[TRONZ]

The concern I have with a time based pay model is that it creates less incentive to improve the speed/features of charging technology. Business wants you "serviced/debited" as quickly as possible so they can move on to the next customer. Lets help them do that! Speed also aligns with the direction of technology and desire of EV drivers. A KWh based model also creates a "universal" price language that can be applied to all stations no matter the equipment available. No need to try and figure out how this different equipment is giving you value for your $. John Q Public just knows some are fast and some are slow. An EV business model should strive to ALWAYS have you pay the same for a KWh simply because gas stations CANNOT do this! Even more unheard of is competition would provide downward pressure on the price of a KWh. The fastest pumpers of a KWh win and do the volume business corporations love. This is also the pricing security (and trend) that will eventually kill gas stations! In the end people will just patronize the stations that pump KWh the fastest in the best locations.

 

[TRONZ]

Nissan to make a Quick Charger for <$5k?

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NISSANCHANNEL/index.html?bctid=1143596591001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at ~13:20. That would change things.

He actually said "3 to 4 thousand" but ya, that would change things!

 

[JimSouCal]

Nissan to make a Quick Charger for <$5k?

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NISSANCHANNEL/index.html?bctid=1143596591001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at ~13:20. That would change things.

He actually said "3 to 4 thousand" but ya, that would change things!

I would likely install one at my home if it was single phase.

 

[mitch672]

Nissan to make a Quick Charger for <$5k?

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NISSANCHANNEL/index.html?bctid=1143596591001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at ~13:20. That would change things.

He actually said "3 to 4 thousand" but ya, that would change things!

I would likely install one at my home if it was single phase.

Not much of a chance it will be single phase, the current required is just not availble in a residential setting in the U.S.

The point is to get the commercial costs down, so that "EV fueling stations" can be installed for less money, and that will speed the publics acceptance of the technology, if the pack can be charged quicker for road trips.

 

[JimSouCal]

Not much of a chance it will be single phase, the current required is just not availble in a residential setting in the U.S.<snip>The point is to get the commercial costs down, so that "EV fueling stations" can be installed for less money, and that will speed the publics acceptance of the technology, if the pack can be charged quicker for road trips.

Yes, I get that it would be great if the smattering of L2 chargers around would be L3.

Several folks here have pointed out that 100AMP or even 200AMP single phase chargers are possible. Furthermore, 3 Phase service is generally confined to areas adjacent to industry and business--at least in my limited understanding.

Not that I am holding my breath, but on the other hand, wouldn't dismiss a charger that charged 6X faster (100 amps) than the current L2 charge we get now via the fast charge port using DC. I could effectively drive around all day near my home base taking only lunch and bathroom breaks.

 

[mitch672]

Not much of a chance it will be single phase, the current required is just not availble in a residential setting in the U.S.<snip>The point is to get the commercial costs down, so that "EV fueling stations" can be installed for less money, and that will speed the publics acceptance of the technology, if the pack can be charged quicker for road trips.

Yes, I get that it would be great if the smattering of L2 chargers around would be L3.

Several folks here have pointed out that 100AMP or even 200AMP single phase chargers are possible. Furthermore, 3 Phase service is generally confined to areas adjacent to industry and business--at least in my limited understanding.

Not that I am holding my breath, but on the other hand, wouldn't dismiss a charger that charged 6X faster (100 amps) than the current L2 charge we get now via the fast charge port using DC. I could effectively drive around all day near my home base taking only lunch and bathroom breaks.

There are also third parties working on external chargers that will run on single phase, 12-18KW is possible from a Residential 200AMP service, this would use the DC chademo port of course, since its an external charger. FYI, Tesla will have this type of high current charger built into the Model S, they are planning on a 300 mile pack on the initial Model S's, so you can see a higher current charger would be helpful to them. Of course Tesla's might just be built in, and use the 75AMP J-1772 standard (maximum allowed) to connect to the onboard charger (75A @ 240V = 18KW), this will require a 100AMP circuit to run.

with that said, don't count on Nissan to deliver a single phase inexpensive solution, they are mostly concerned with the commercial market, if a single phase fast charger is possible, it will likely come from a third party source.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think that any price will have a certain level of acceptance. i liken it to football game parking. if i want to, i can pay $40 for parking and get parking within 2 blocks of the stadium.

but then again, the game is already expensive enough. so i opt for $10 parking and a mile walk. but that is all part of the game experience. one of the fondest memories i have had over the past several years was when Seattle beat Carolina in the NFC championship game. sure it was a mile walk but it was with a crowd of very very happy people. the walk was almost too short

expensive L3 parking will be the same. higher prices some will pay, but most will simply plan their life around the cheaper L2 options.

but the original question is how much would i pay? well, that simply depends

 

[Nekota]

I would pay $20 to $35 for the L3 charge. Basically a $10 hookup charge and $1 per KWHr delivered.

 

[walterbays]

how much would i pay? well, that simply depends

Indeed. Like Messrs Megargel and Fassett while crossing the Rocky Mountains in one of those new fangled gasoline automobiles in 1908, seeing others who froze to death after becoming stranded. They paid the outrageous price of $1.75 per gallon for gasoline, and had it carried to them 14 miles by horse after they out-drove the range of their car. Given the circumstances $1.75 must have seemed a fine bargain. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=22331#p22331

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i guess cost is relative. i am chomping at the bit to replace my 14 month old $200 Moto Droid X with a $300 Droid Bionic. two more days and the wait is torturous.

i will probably just bill the purchase to my bill making the next bill $560 in stead of the normal $260. what we are willing to pay sometimes is amazing. but i am most definitely not willing to wait until my full discount in March.

 

[walterbays]

I first thought the equivalent to the price of gasoline would be the right price. But what matters is your total cost versus your alternative. Suppose you have a Leaf (4 mi/kWh) and a Prius (44 MPG, Consumer Reports), and you need to go 72 miles and back. There isn't an L2 at your destination, and you don't want to spend hours waiting for a charge along the way. But there is an L3 station. Gas costs $4/gallon and electricity at home costs $0.08/kWh.

The Leaf arrives with 25% capacity remaining. An L3 charge to 80% puts in 13.2 kWh. If the L3 station costs $10 for a charge that's like paying $8/gallon for gasoline. Too much, right? No. You don't have the option to drive the Leaf there and drive the Prius home; you must drive the same car there and back.

In the Prius you'll burn 3.3 gallons of gas for $13. In the Leaf you'll burn 22.8 kWh of "home" electricity, using 24.9 kWh into the EVSE at 90% efficiency, costing $2; plus another $10 for the L3 charge. Driving the Leaf is cheaper, even paying the exorbitant L3 cost.

 

[LEAFfan]

What do they charge in Japan where there are already a bunch of L3 chargers?

You don't want to compare Japan's price to ours. Most everything is REALLY expensive there. For instance, a box of 80 sour red cherries would cost you $100 USD!
I would be willing to pay up to $5 for a 20 min. charge (to 80%) and would only use it when traveling on the interstates (2-3 times max/day) or more than 50 miles away.

 

[Herm]

It really depends on how badly and quickly you need that charge.. its a paradigm when you can charge at home for next to nothing but we are used to this when we go out to eat, food is more expensive in a restaurant.. there will be lots of grumbling for any significant charging payments because of this.

 

[garygid]

If Big-Electricity is at all like Big-Oil (I suspect it is, trying to keep a one-supplier "death grip" on their marketplace), getting a good deal on e-fuel might become ... problematic.

Private local PV systems may become much less expensive sources of daytime e-fuel, much less expensive than buying from the regional PU.

We might even have to withhold our excess generation from the daytime Grid until they decide to pay us properly (Peak rates?) for it. No, it costs them VERY LITTLE to "distribute" my electrons to my neighbors.

I tend to use Prius-type economy as a metric: 50 mpg not 25 mpg. Delivered e-fuel should be LESS expensive than delivered gasoline, and the ratio should get larger.

The artificial large fees that the PUs can get away with charging us, and their permission to charge enough to cover all expenses (and make a profit on that) gives them NO incentive to keep their costs down. The more they spend, the more profit they are allowed to make.

The PV revolution is much like the EV revolution: there are powerful interests that are putting roadblocks in the way.

 

[Herm]

Its probably illegal, but you people with credits built up in your PV account could offer to run the fridge for your neighbor, a fridge consumes about 50kwh per month.

 

[TRONZ]

Another interesting conversation. A friends copilot owns a few car washes and is looking to start more. They are the brushless automated types and I guess make a nice little chunk of charge for this guy. I had no idea. Anyways, this guy is looking to install PV on them and is hunting for green image/marketing ideas to promote his sites. My buddy tells him I wash my car every week so mentioned EV charging. He's a car guy DIY like me and goes over his rides for about 20 minutes after the blow dry. BUT he did not know about L3 until I explained it to him yesterday! He got excited when I told him how they worked in 20 mins and the lower prices of those coming soon. I asked him to find out if the existing car wash equipment is already high voltage. They fly together again next week and he will pass along my number.

It really got me thinking. An (automated) car wash is a prime candidate for L3. It does not exclude ICE cars and in fact would spread L3 costs so thin it would be lost in the noise level. A solar canopy would work great during the "sunny" peak times of business and provide shade while people wipe down their cars.

 

[walterbays]

What if when you filled up your gas tank you had to pay not only for the gasoline but also for all the infrastructure to deliver it? The gas station, real estate, building, pumps, underground tank, fleet of tanker trucks, etc. How did our gasoline infrastructure ever get built? Well, it took a while.

The city of Seal Beach is increasing the cost of recharging from $2.16 an hour to $3.37 per hour. http://losalamitos.patch.com/articles/city-to-increase-rates-at-electric-vehicle-charging-stations That's for them just to break even on the electricity and the charging stations. Yet for a LEAF L2 charger the price works out to $0.89/kWh as compared to something like $0.08/kWh many of us are paying at home. If your other vehicle option is a Prius, it equates to $11/gallon gasoline. And this is for L2 charging. For reasons discussed at length here, an L3 charge is likely to be significantly more expensive.

On another thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=150916#p150916

I'm mostly concerned that with its toddler-sized battery, the Plug-In Prius is going to be occupying all the J1772 plugs in town, leaving both us Volt and Leaf folks commiserating on how evil small batteries are.

At these prices we won't have to worry about Plug-In Prius or Volts occupying all the plugs. They won't opt for $11/gallon gas when there's a real gas station next door selling for $4/gallon or less. Someone here wrote that he expected after the initial mostly-free period we're in now, charging fees would be widely instituted, but then it would follow the same model as Wifi. One after another business will offer charging as a free amenity to attract customers.

 

[fooljoe]

The city of Seal Beach is increasing the cost of recharging from $2.16 an hour to $3.37 per hour. http://losalamitos.patch.com/articles/city-to-increase-rates-at-electric-vehicle-charging-stations That's for them just to break even on the electricity and the charging stations. Yet for a LEAF L2 charger the price works out to $0.89/kWh as compared to something like $0.08/kWh many of us are paying at home. If your other vehicle option is a Prius, it equates to $11/gallon gasoline. And this is for L2 charging. For reasons discussed at length here, an L3 charge is likely to be significantly more expensive.[/url]

Ugh, let's not use my hometown as some kind of example of what people would pay to charge. I've never seen an EV charging in any of the 3 spots since the inauguration ceremony (the silver one in the picture on the article is actually mine right after the ceremony, when it was free). I have, however, seen them ICE'd about half the time due to poor signage and complete lack of enforcement. It should also be pointed out that these chargers are in pay-to-park lots, so the cost could reflect that. I think the beach lot where 2 of them are is $3/hour, while the 3rd unit is in a meter lot on Main St. Whoever made the statement about "breaking even on electricity and upkeep" is completely misinformed or just lying. Upkeep should be zero, and the cost of the electricity is probably about 50c/hour. Also, the statement in the article that each unit can serve two vehicles is completely wrong.

 

[cwerdna]

What do they charge in Japan where there are already a bunch of L3 chargers?

You don't want to compare Japan's price to ours. Most everything is REALLY expensive there. For instance, a box of 80 sour red cherries would cost you $100 USD!

As someone who has visited Japan 4x, not everything is insanely expensive there. However, on my trip in 09 to Tokyo Motor Show, I was feeling the pain of the weak $ vs. the yen. Back then, it was ~85-90 yen to $1 USD vs. the ~110-118 I was used to in my first trip in 2001.

Before I prepped for my 1st trip there in 01, I thought, "OMG. There's no way I could find a hotel room for <$200 USD." I was dead wrong.

I found rooms way cheaper. On my trip in 09, I stayed at http://www.tokyustay.co.jp/e/hotel/MON/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; in Tokyo. I just checked for a room in the next few days and it's only 5400 yen or ~$70 USD. The place was ok (but small, which is not surprising for Tokyo), clean, safe and near public transit.

 

[vrwl]

This was posted in the Dallas/Ft Worth area of the forum and once I read it, I just had to ask.... how much do the rest of you pay for a quick charge? I feel like evGo is grossly overvaluing their quick chargers, but I may be totally off base. So thus, my question: Are quick charges worth $30 bucks a pop PLUS $60.00 a year to you (anyone outside of the DFW metro area)? Or does this seem like an unreasonable price to get a quick charge (they are the ONLY QC game in town around here).

I have some good news for anyone in DF/W who has considered using EVGo but didn't like any of their monthly plans. They told me today there is a new plan that is less than $5 per month. But here's how it works.

• You have to pay up-front for the year $59.99 or for two years at $99.99
• You are limited to 3 hours consecutive charging on L2 stations
• You can use the L3 stations if you want, but you'll be charged $30 per use.