Home solar panels- who's got them?

[Boomer23]

So for those of you who spent 25k + on panels, was it an economic decision? Seems like it would take an awful long time to recoup that investment.

It was definitely not an economic decision in our case, more of a memorial.

Actually, I am, to my amazement, a published author in a very tiny way: I wrote a short essay about this very topic that ended up in a book that can be purchased in hardcover or read free on the internet. If you are interested, you can go here:
Thoreau's Legacy: American Stories about Global Warming
Click to launch the interactive book, Click on "VII For Tomorrow", then go back one page and you'll find me.

Ray

Nice article, Ray. You're doing good.

 

[LEAFfan]

And who did you use?

What did you pay?

What was your rebate?

Sun Valley Solar Systems-4.8Kw Honeywell (now Exeltech) AC Panels with built in micro-inverters (25 yr. guarantee on both!)

$25K base-$2000(guinea pig discount)-$6900 fed tax credit-$1000 state tax credit-$10,300 Utility Rebate=$4800 out of pocket with a 4 year pay off.

 

[kevintari]

And who did you use?

What did you pay?

What was your rebate?

Sun Valley Solar Systems-4.8Kw Honeywell (now Exeltech) AC Panels with built in micro-inverters (25 yr. guarantee on both!)

$25K base-$2000(guinea pig discount)-$6900 fed tax credit-$1000 state tax credit-$10,300 Utility Rebate=$4800 out of pocket with a 4 year pay off.

Now THAT is a deal!

 

[TNleaf]

And who did you use?

What did you pay?
What was your rebate?

Sun Valley Solar Systems-4.8Kw Honeywell (now Exeltech) AC Panels with built in micro-inverters (25 yr. guarantee on both!)

$25K base-$2000(guinea pig discount)-$6900 fed tax credit-$1000 state tax credit-$10,300 Utility Rebate=$4800 out of pocket with a 4 year pay off.

Wow! I'd do that in a heartbeat!

 

[Azrich]

And who did you use?

What did you pay?

What was your rebate?

5.8 kW Photovoltaic System
consisting of 27 SunPower 215 watt modules
SunPower 6000m Inverter
Sunny WebBox online data monitoring system

Incentives that made this possible:
Tucson Electric Power - $3.00 a watt or $17,415
Federal Tax Credit - $4,833
Arizona Tax Credit - $1,000
No sales tax
Our out of pocket cost: $10,200
Installation superbly done by Technicians for Sustainability, Tucson, Arizona

For the past 4 months our solar system has generated more kWh than we were using, therefore our LEAF is totally charged with solar energy.

 

[thankyouOB]

for those who want a quick ROI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q

 

[OilFreedom]

So for those of you who spent 25k + on panels, was it an economic decision? Seems like it would take an awful long time to recoup that investment.

It was mostly a decision to be more green, but the economics looked good too... We are planning to stay in our current home for years, so there's plenty of time to recoup the investment.

Beyond that, electricity prices are more likely to go up than down. Having a smart grid and meter provides the utilities the ability to charge based on your time-of-use of electricity. (If you don't already have a smart meter, you will probably be getting one from your utility within a few years.)

The great thing about PV power is that you're making the most juice when the TOU pricing is likely to be high -- meaning the electrons you push into the grid are more valuable (assuming your production is greater than your use). This means your ROI period will be shorter.

Also, if you charge your EV with your own solar power (time shifted to off-peak TOU rates, of course), then the calculation becomes even more attractive when you compare the cost of your electricity to gasoline, especially since gas prices will probably trend upwards. The cost per mile of driving an EV is already lower than a gas vehicle, and it just gets better if you're driving with sunshine in your battery pack!

Whatever your motivation for looking into PV, good for you!

 

[OilFreedom]

So for those of you who spent 25k + on panels, was it an economic decision? Seems like it would take an awful long time to recoup that investment.

It was definitely not an economic decision in our case, more of a memorial.

Actually, I am, to my amazement, a published author in a very tiny way: I wrote a short essay about this very topic that ended up in a book that can be purchased in hardcover or read free on the internet. If you are interested, you can go here:
Thoreau's Legacy: American Stories about Global Warming
Click to launch the interactive book, Click on "VII For Tomorrow", then go back one page and you'll find me.

Ray

Ray, that is such a wonderful and fitting memorial! I'm sure it makes your mother smile!

 

[popak]

We got a system from HelioPower (http://www.heliopower.com) via http://www.1BOG.org's group discount. We did the Orange County campaign and the price was $5.44/DC W. I got bids from 6 other contractors and the 1BOG-selected installer beat out all the rest in price, knowledge, and professionalism. I highly recommend them.

Besides outright purchasing, most established solar installers (including 1BOG-selected ones) also have loan and lease options available. So solar is really like buying a car these days - pay cash, get a loan, or lease with little or no downpayment. Your return, of course, will vary depending on which option you choose.

I don't know where you are located but 1BOG is having a campaign right now for Los Angles county (http://1bog.org/deals/los-angeles/). It's at $5.25/DC W, which is pretty darn good.

Btw, to compare bids, you want to compare $/kWh. So, for bid 1, if your gross cost is $25,000 and expected kWh for the first year is 6,000 kWh, the key number is $4.17/kWh. For bid 2, if your gross is $21,000 and expected kWh is 4,800 kWh, the cost is $4.375/kWh. In this case, you probably want to go with system 1 because your cost per kWh is less, even though the gross cost is higher. Of course, this assumes that the net cost is within your budget

The $/kWh figure takes into account the efficiency of the installation, equipment, and so on. So it's a good metric to use. For example, a 6kW DC system installed on an east-facing roof will likely produce less than a 5kW DC system facing south and the $/kWh figure will reflect that.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[drmanny3]

I ended up going with Solarcity. I also leased as it was the best price I could get. Our first year the sysem is producing a little over 9000 kwh. They used thin film technology and the panels look like black glass without any frames. We have 68 of them. I was going to cancel the project because I did not like the 4% increase in the lease price every year for 15 years. I was concerned that it is hard to look out that long into the future and predict with any level of confidence what will happen to energy prices. I asked for quotes on purchasing the system but it was also too expensive. Finally the day I was going to cancel I asked for different price quotes for leasing the system. They came back with a $10,000 or $5000 price. At $5000 I would have paid only $60 per month for the next 15 years with no increase. Our current bill at about 1000 kwhrs per month is about $200. So I did a cost analysis on the $5000. It worked out to about $15,000 over the life of the lease. If you sell and no one wants to take over the lease you can pay it off. With the $10,000 one time fee, there were no monthly payments at all. So it was the lowest overall cost and would most likely not bother a perspective purchaser of our home. So we went that route. Thus far our first years bill was about $325 versus the more than $2400 we paid for electricity previously. So our payback is about 4 years. That is really great for solar. Solarcity takes care of the maintenance, and keeps aware via wifi. We even have a performance guarrantee as well for the 15 years of use. At the end of the lease they/we have three options. They will modernize it and start a new lease, completly remove and repair the roof, or the last one is to leave everything as is and transfer ownership to home.
Manny

 

[Spies]

They will modernize it and start a new lease, completly remove and repair the roof, or the last one is to leave everything as is and transfer ownership to home.
Manny

I am curious if they gave you actual terms for these options up front. For example I know how much the buyout price for my Leaf is at the end of the lease and I can even go online and get a buyout price right now if I like. Without having these prices negotiated up front I am not sure what value these options add.

These cash up front solar leases are intriguing just the same though.

 

[OilFreedom]

... but for me it has to make economic sense.

I definitely understand.

If PV solar power is not a good option for someone (ROI, live in an apartment, etc.), there is an easy way to offset one's CO2 footprint... I first heard about this through an Al Gore organization and have been participating for years. It's really easy! Although we have PV and (soon) an EV, we still have CO2 emissions -- just not as much.

First, you visit a site like http://www.nativeenergy.com/pages/lifestyle_calculator/464.php (see the instructions in the center and also on left navigation pane) or http://www.nativeenergy.com/pages/offset_now/473.php that help you quickly figure out many tons of CO2 your household emits -- including air travel, etc. Then, you can offset that amount by helping build new renewable energy projects. You even get to pick the project (http://www.nativeenergy.com/pages/our_carbon_projects/413.php). I do it with a (surprisingly small) automatic monthly credit card payment that goes toward wind projects. If you prefer, you can contribute manually whenever you'd like.

If you're interested, here's a great place to start: http://www.nativeenergy.com/pages/individuals/407.php.

 

[OilFreedom]

For those living in coastal areas like La Jolla, CA that see marine layers and/or fog, PV systems do indeed produce significantly less energy during those times. Although it is not ideal, you may still have some PV options if going solar is important to you and a longer ROI period is OK...

All PV modules produce the most energy with direct sunlight; however, some kinds of modules make much better use of diffuse sunlight than others. Also keep in mind that PV modules generally have better efficiency profiles when they are cool vs. hot -- making cooler coastal living a plus for energy production. So, during those times when you do not have direct sunlight, you could still make enough power (depending on the size of your array, etc.) to drop to a lower tier in the tariff structure to save you money. And, in those sunny times, you would be making a lot of juice!

For example, the PV modules in our back yard produce roughly 1/3 as much power during a marine layer day vs. a sunny day. That's a big drop. However, the array we have on the roof uses a different kind of module and takes roughly a 50% hit instead of 66%. So, even on those socked-in days, we can still do some nice tier shaving! Keep in mind that my system is a few years old, so the newer modules are more efficient than this.

I was amazed to learn that Germany is less sunny than Seattle, yet they have many and many PV installations on homes and businesses. I realize that's largely driven by their very supportive policies (attractive energy buy-back rates, incentives, etc.), but they actually produce a whole lot of PV energy in spite of the relatively poor weather for PV! :mrgreen:

 

[Boomer23]

For example, the PV modules in our back yard produce roughly 1/3 as much power during a marine layer day vs. a sunny day. That's a big drop. However, the array we have on the roof uses a different kind of module and takes roughly a 50% hit instead of 66%. So, even on those socked-in days, we can still do some nice tier shaving! Keep in mind that my system is a few years old, so the newer modules are more efficient than this.

Very interesting. Could you tell us what two varieties of panels you have in the two locations?

 

[OilFreedom]

Sure... The roof integrated modules are the kind that replace the shingles vs. being installed as a layer on top of them. The builder had them installed, so I do not have all the details. I believe they are some kind of thin film hybrid that was made by GE. Per square foot, they are not as efficient as conventional modules; however, they do better in diffuse light. In the back yard, we added Sanyo Electric HIP-200BA3 200-Watt Solar Modules. These are a bit smaller (shorter) than many modules and worked well for our space since they still provided 200 watts each. On overcast days, I like having both kinds of modules.

 

[gmuzhik]

Does anyone have Enphase solar inverters and have a problem charging their Leaf? Today, I tried charging my Leaf at 2:00PM here in San Diego and noticed that the envoy unit that communicates to the enphase micro inverters started reporting zero output at 2:20PM! My ammeter proved otherwise, fortunately. The charging unit must put a lot of noise on the power line to screw up the envoy's power line comms. I read on the forum somewhere that others were having power line noise problems with different symptoms.

 

[ENIAC]

I have Enphase micro inverters and I've not noticed any issues with the PLC in any situation. I even have envoy connected through a surge protector/power strip, which they say not to do. My issue with Enphase is the Enlighten web app. Its reporting is typically between 45 min to over and hour behind. What good is that?

Does anyone have Enphase solar inverters and have a problem charging their Leaf? Today, I tried charging my Leaf at 2:00PM here in San Diego and noticed that the envoy unit that communicates to the enphase micro inverters started reporting zero output at 2:20PM! My ammeter proved otherwise, fortunately. The charging unit must put a lot of noise on the power line to screw up the envoy's power line comms. I read on the forum somewhere that others were having power line noise problems with different symptoms.

 

[LEAFer]

Does anyone have Enphase solar inverters and have a problem charging their Leaf? Today, I tried charging my Leaf at 2:00PM here in San Diego and noticed that the envoy unit that communicates to the enphase micro inverters started reporting zero output at 2:20PM! My ammeter proved otherwise, fortunately. The charging unit must put a lot of noise on the power line to screw up the envoy's power line comms. I read on the forum somewhere that others were having power line noise problems with different symptoms.

Please cross-post to the appropriate thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3988

 

[gmuzhik]

Thanks LEAFer! I tried searching on noise and did not find that link. So far, I'm not impressed with the search engine on MNL.

 

[TonyWilliams]

We tested my new solar installation today. Waiting for SDG&E (electric company) approval. I'm leaving town, so not sure how much will get done while I'm gone.