GoE3, how does this make any sense?

[TonyWilliams]

Unfortunately Tony resorts to rude name calling and likes to make untrue assumptions about what I think. I'm afraid it doesn't take too much of that to make me lose all respect for the man.

Keep thumbing your nose and "Just-Drive-My-Prius"! (TM)

>>>These people seem to think that everyone is going to throw buckets of money at them!<<<

You'll pay at the "pump", or with a reduced rate with the benefit of your tax money. Somebody will pay, or it won't exist. The only thing you accurately seem to understand is that it takes "buckets of money".

>>>These stations will rarely get used and the greedy SOBs will go out of business.<<<<<

Stay classy, as always!!!!!

 

[Luft]

Unfortunately Tony resorts to rude name calling and likes to make untrue assumptions about what I think. I'm afraid it doesn't take too much of that to make me lose all respect for the man.

Keep thumbing your nose and "Just-Drive-My-Prius"! (TM)

>>>These people seem to think that everyone is going to throw buckets of money at them!<<<

You'll pay at the "pump", or with a reduced rate with the benefit of your tax money. Somebody will pay, or it won't exist. The only thing you accurately seem to understand is that it takes "buckets of money".

>>>These stations will rarely get used and the greedy SOBs will go out of business.<<<<<

Stay classy, as always!!!!!

My comments are not personal attacks on you. They are expressions of frustration at people who I perceive to be gaming the system. Your attacks are of a personal nature and are directed directly at me. "The only thing you accurately seem to understand..." Another personal, rude, unnecessary and untrue jab. "Mr. Poster Child..." Yeah, nothing personal about that.

 

[TonyWilliams]

My comments are not personal attacks on you. They are expressions of frustration at people who I perceive to be gaming the system. Your attacks are of a personal nature and are directed directly at me. "The only thing you accurately seem to understand..." Another personal, rude, unnecessary and untrue jab. "Mr. Poster Child..." Yeah, nothing personal about that.

I stepped over the line; you are right.

Since I am actively involved at significant financial risk in the Quick Charge business, i probably should just embrace your comments as "market research", and not your stated desire of hoping I go out of business in my venture, or that I'm an "SOB".

 

[FairwoodRed]

I view $12.50 per DC charge like I do theater popcorn. It’s way overpriced for what I can get elsewhere, but it does have a convenience factor going for it. Just like I will only buy theater popcorn once or twice a year when I’m desperate for something to eat, I’ll only pay 12.50 per charge when I’m desperate for power. If that puts the provider out of business, then so be it. I’m NOT going to pay more than its value to me just to support them.

 

[lpickup]

I view $12.50 per DC charge like I do theater popcorn. It’s way overpriced for what I can get elsewhere, but it does have a convenience factor going for it. Just like I will only buy theater popcorn once or twice a year when I’m desperate for something to eat, I’ll only pay 12.50 per charge when I’m desperate for power. If that puts the provider out of business, then so be it. I’m NOT going to pay more than its value to me just to support them.

Nice analogy. If I may extend on it--this is why I'm not in favor of a subscription type arrangement. If I had to subscribe to theater popcorn to get it, I probably wouldn't bother--I'd probably just skip it altogether. I probably wouldn't buy a subscription and then feel compelled to go to the movies once a month just so I felt like I was getting a return on my subscription. In fact for me it would have the opposite effect--I would probably be so disgusted with the whole thing I would avoid movie theaters (wait, I already do that!)

Let's carry it one step further. The eVgo model would be kind of like getting Netflix and doing most of your movie watching at home, but if you wanted to go to the theater, you had to buy their upgraded package that allowed you to get into the theater for "free". And I suppose that only certain theaters would be paired with Netflix. If you had Amazon Prime, there would be a different set of theaters you'd have to go to.

I just feel subscription models, while having the potential to be a great deal (for some), are going to be hard to line up with actual demand. If a fair price was being charged, half the users would be getting a great deal and half would be getting screwed. Sure you could have multiple tiers, but I'm dubious about the ability of new companies inventing new business models to come out with one that is really consumer friendly. I'd compare to my cell phone plans and the fact that I have to deal with them putting me into a monthly minutes tier that I come nowhere near to using, just so my sons can send unlimited text messages. It gets too complicated and in the end nobody is paying anything that remotely resembles what they are actually using.

So if $12.50 a charge is what's fair, then that's what's fair. Any attempts to wrap a subscription model around it is still going to wind up having to cost the average subscriber $12.50 a charge.

 

[Luft]

My comments are not personal attacks on you. They are expressions of frustration at people who I perceive to be gaming the system. Your attacks are of a personal nature and are directed directly at me. "The only thing you accurately seem to understand..." Another personal, rude, unnecessary and untrue jab. "Mr. Poster Child..." Yeah, nothing personal about that.

I stepped over the line; you are right.

Since I am actively involved at significant financial risk in the Quick Charge business, i probably should just embrace your comments as "market research", and not your stated desire of hoping I go out of business in my venture, or that I'm an "SOB".

I also apologise for being over zealous in some of my comments. Believe me when I say that I don't want anyone to fail.

I didn't realise that you are invested in the e-fuel business and hope that you can make a go of it. The people that did get grant money have a huge advantage. What would really help the e-fuel business is the ending of oil subsidies and forcing ICE drivers to pay the true price of gas. It would at least give us a level playing field. But the downside of that may be that it tanks our economy.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I view $12.50 per DC charge like I do theater popcorn. It’s way overpriced for what I can get elsewhere, but it does have a convenience factor going for it. Just like I will only buy theater popcorn once or twice a year when I’m desperate for something to eat, I’ll only pay 12.50 per charge when I’m desperate for power. If that puts the provider out of business, then so be it. I’m NOT going to pay more than its value to me just to support them.

Surely, most won't pay more than the "value". What's different is the dollar amount of that value to each of us. I have a really good idea what these DC chargers cost, and I am willing to support that, even if a trip costs more than "I'll-Just-Drive-My-Prius" (TM).

I suspect I'm in the minority, or at least non-vocal majority. You clearly do not have that same value, and only are concerned with your personal bottom line for value.

We all have different thresholds.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So if $12.50 a charge is what's fair, then that's what's fair. Any attempts to wrap a subscription model around it is still going to wind up having to cost the average subscriber $12.50 a charge.

The subscription model is the most difficult of all for the provider. But, if marketed like a cell phone contract, you have XXX minutes of charging for the month (at a rate below ad hoc charging) with more minutes off peak, weekends, etc.

What the provider gets is the same that a cell phone company does... "loyalty" to your product.

Vending machines and cell phones are the closest models.... Not per unit of gasoline.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Hey Guys this charge rate is designed for the 300 mile tesla to be out in July. 12.50 / 300 equals 4 cents a mile. Because of the varied range of cars the longest range one was choosen as an example. I hope that clears things up

Hey Bruce. Just found your company. And yes, 3.3kW L2 LEAF drivers don't gets it. GoE3 sounds like the perfect solution for intercity charging while SAE and CHAdeMO delay the future of DC Quick Charge. 70A L2 will attract Tesla drivers, and the Toyota RAV4. Since it's L2, a ~$3-5k EVSE is all that’s needed, and since its <20kW, no demand charges. A manageable business model. Not a financial advantage to sub 100 mile cars, but if they need to charge, it will be there for their occasional use. And flat pricing will keep the Volts/PIPs away, enhancing availability.

Now that the Model S is on the road, people will get it. Location will matter. What’s your deployment plan?

 

[LEAFer]

Recent News:

https://community.azpm.org/p/community-featured/2012/12/13/20440-quick-charge-at-picacho-peak/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.plugincars.com/arizona-based-goe3-unveil-southern-arizonas-first-level-3-evse-pichaco-peak-saturday-december-8th.ht" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[jlsoaz]

Recent News:

https://community.azpm.org/p/community-featured/2012/12/13/20440-quick-charge-at-picacho-peak/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.plugincars.com/arizona-based-goe3-unveil-southern-arizonas-first-level-3-evse-pichaco-peak-saturday-december-8th.ht" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For what it's worth, I drove my Leaf to attend this opening at Picacho Peak. I have some pictures but they are about as seen in the various articles. There was also a level II station there for those who do not want to pay the quick charge fees. I did use the QC but did not pay since that part of the system was not activated yet. I believe it is on the chargepoint network? From my discussions with GOE3, it sounds like next is Flagstaff (in January) and then for the next two quarters after that, about 70 across Arizona and the US, a focus on route 40 I think.

Note that the original question of this thread is to the point of whether such high fees for electricity could make sense, but the focus of GOE3 is on inter-city travel, not intra-city travel, and so their focus is necessarily on Level III, to address driver time-constraints. From there, I think they have to charge what they think the market will bear as the equipment and installation for Level III is very high ($50k in this case). This is not to say they have correctly gauged "what the market will bear" since I don't think we're there yet as to knowing and testing this, but I would certainly pay a decent amount on occassion. So far, I have used public chargers very little, but the few times I have used them, the issue has been more about time than electricity cost. I have spent more on restaurant food while waiting, and on activating my cell phone hotspot feature for more gigabytes, than I have on parking/electricity.

Given the amount of time the Level III would save me, if they offer it in my area, even if it is more expensive than I might like, it might save me money (given its saving of time for me), and even if it doesn't, I'd still consider using it.

I'll be curious to see the proportion of Level II/Level III choices made at their spots, given that both seem to be offered.

 

[LEAFfan]

Josh, the DCQC/CHAdeMO isn't L3. L3 is the SAE connector on the left side of the GoE3 Charger. There aren't any cars at this time that can use L3.

 

[jlsoaz]

Josh, the DCQC/CHAdeMO isn't L3. L3 is the SAE connector on the left side of the GoE3 Charger. There aren't any cars at this time that can use L3.

Thanks LEAFfan, I think I've heard various folks refer to L3 as being equivalent to Fast-charging (i.e.: just a reference to the number of volts and power), regardless of connector or protocol, but I'll keep an eye out, maybe I am using the term incorrectly, and if so I'll try to correct. Is it just a matter of informal industry vernacular, or is there a formal definition somewhere? Maybe I'll just err on the side of discussing high-voltage fast-charging, and then specify the connector if nec., until I can get a sense of whether the term Level 3 is going to cause confusion issues in conversation.

I understand that the connector I used to charge at the Picacho Peak station was the one on the right side, the CHAdeMO connector. I don't know you from your id, which I only mention as I don't know if you were at the event, but they made clear at the opening that the station that opened has both the SAE connector and the CHAdeMO connector. I know, no vehicles presently come to work with the SAE connector.

The Teslas that were there I guess use adapters to hook up, but I don't recall to what. I can't recall what was hooked up to what... maybe they were just hooked up to the J1772 level II's? It would be interesting if Tesla made an adapter suitable to the SAE protocol which I guess would then mean that in a way it would be some sort of first?

 

[GRA]

What used to be called L3 is now called DC L2 per the SAE. From wiki:
----------------------------------------------
The SAE J1772 committee proposes a DC connector based on the SAE J1772-2009 AC connector with additional DC and ground pins to support charging at 200–450 V DC and 80 A (36 kW) for DC Level 1 and up to 200 A (90 kW) for DC Level 2,

http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

after evaluating it against other designs including the JARI/TEPCO connector used by the CHAdeMO DC fast charge protocol.[14] The SAE DC Level 3 charging has not been determined but the standard as it now exists has the potential 200–600 V DC at a maximum of 400 A (240 kW).

 

[JPWhite]

I agree with those saying this is a fair price. You're paying for being able to use expensive equipment in the middle of nowhere. Comparing it to how cheap your home electricity is -- well, that's not the same thing at all.

Gas Stations are quite expensive to build, they are in the middle of nowhere as well. If we are going to compare the cost of capital equipment on top of the cost of electric, we should also compare the cost of capital investment for a gas station on top of the cost of gas.

Sure the equipment is expensive, but so are gas pumps, tanks, maintenance.

The main difference is the utilization rates between a gas pump and a DC Fast charger. This is where the equation is a somewhat lopsided.

 

[jlsoaz]

Gas Stations are quite expensive to build, they are in the middle of nowhere as well. If we are going to compare the cost of capital equipment on top of the cost of electric, we should also compare the cost of capital investment for a gas station on top of the cost of gas.

Sure the equipment is expensive, but so are gas pumps, tanks, maintenance.

The main difference is the utilization rates between a gas pump and a DC Fast charger. This is where the equation is a somewhat lopsided.

FWIW, the cost of comparable pump installation was also discussed at the opening. If memory serves, a figure of $250k per pump was offered then, though this sounded too high to me. Maybe I mis-heard.

 

[GRA]

Vague, un-sourced memory is that the typical gas station w/mini mart runs about $3 million all included.

 

[jlsoaz]

Vague, un-sourced memory is that the typical gas station w/mini mart runs about $3 million all included.

While we await others to supplement our knowledge of per-pump and per-station costs, another point that was made on the day, and that rang true with something I've heard several times before, is that the profits for a business owner in that line are not in selling fuel, but in the store. While that may be an oversimplification, and in need of clarification, I think I have heard several times before that when I see high gas prices I should not assume that the station owner is making much, if anything.

Likewise in selling electricity, they will generate revenue from electric charger operation (at least with Goe3 they will) but also from the dollars spent on other items at the station while waiting for charging.

 

[jlsoaz]

Vague, un-sourced memory is that the typical gas station w/mini mart runs about $3 million all included.

While we await others to supplement our knowledge of per-pump and per-station costs, another point that was made on the day, and that rang true with something I've heard several times before, is that the profits for a business owner in that line are not in selling fuel, but in the store. While that may be an oversimplification, and in need of clarification, I think I have heard several times before that when I see high gas prices I should not assume that the station owner is making much, if anything.

Likewise in selling electricity, they will generate revenue from electric charger operation (at least with Goe3 they will) but also from the dollars spent on other items at the station while waiting for charging.

PS:

I meant to add that the Arizona Secretary of State, Ken Bennett, (R) was present and spoke well of his family's long history in Arizona of running various types of businesses. In particular, in the last couple of generations, he was able to speak to the matter of running refueling station areas and how the fuels have changed from the early 20th century through until today. His comments were I thought above-average interesting for a few quick words from a politician at a product launch.

Side-note that he was the acting governor at that moment.

Also, I thought it was somewhat unusual/refreshing to hear a Republican speak intelligently at an electric vehicle event. I hope to hear this more often.

 

[GRA]

Vague, un-sourced memory is that the typical gas station w/mini mart runs about $3 million all included.

While we await others to supplement our knowledge of per-pump and per-station costs, another point that was made on the day, and that rang true with something I've heard several times before, is that the profits for a business owner in that line are not in selling fuel, but in the store. While that may be an oversimplification, and in need of clarification, I think I have heard several times before that when I see high gas prices I should not assume that the station owner is making much, if anything.

Likewise in selling electricity, they will generate revenue from electric charger operation (at least with Goe3 they will) but also from the dollars spent on other items at the station while waiting for charging.

No doubt whatsoever where the profit comes from. Indeed, there was an article a few months back in the WSJ that independent station owners were finding it almost impossible to make money. Not only couldn't they pass though the full rise in their wholesale fuel cost to the customer, but because of the recession their convenience store sales (which is where the profit is) were also way down. The number of stations has dropped considerably as a result. IIRC, a few years back there were something like 160,000 gas stations in the U.S., and that number is down to something below 140k and possibly as low as 110k now (my memory is hazy; I'm sure about the first, but not the second). As cars get more and more fuel efficient I'm sure the number will continue to decrease.