General EV sales topic

[GRA]

I used L1 for a week, and it was severely limiting. Arrived home with a low SoC, and suddenly wanted to go out again.

What size battery?

What percentage used on the commute?

Small, probably 20 or maybe 24 kWh usable. This was in '97 or '98, a pre-production Think City, similar to but earlier than a SMART ED: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_City#Specifications). The one I drove lacked power steering and badly needed it and a much-improved suspension to deal with potholes, manhole covers, railroad tracks etc., but I thought the plastic body similar to Lexan was brilliant for a city car that would be dealing with shopping carts, carelessly opened doors etc. bumping into it on a regular basis.

But I wasn't using it to commute those days. My commute at that time was about the same distance as now, 4 or 5 miles one-way, and I don't need a car to do that. Both days I'd been out doing something near the limit of its radius (figure typical range of 70 miles) and got home with say 5-10 miles remaining (IIRR no GoM, just a finely graduated analog Voltmeter). Then, friends called and asked me over, but as they lived 10 and 25 miles away L1 simply required too much time to charge. A larger pack would expand the radius before that would be a problem but wouldn't eliminate the issue, as L1 speed wouldn't increase and you'd still have to make up the extra usage.

 

[GRA]

cars with ICEs (ICE/HEV/PHEV) made up 45.7% despite all the subsidies and incentives.

Cars with plugs make up 74% of sales in Norway in 2020.

More than half of PHEV miles in Norway are all-electric.

Uh huh, and that's great. but with BEVs costing less than ICEs plus all their other financial perks, and (according to you) they have the same capability as and greater convenience than ICEs, why don't they make up 100% of sales; why would anyone need to waste money on (ICE-equipped) PHEVs?

 

[SageBrush]

cars with ICEs (ICE/HEV/PHEV) made up 45.7% despite all the subsidies and incentives.

Cars with plugs make up 74% of sales in Norway in 2020.

More than half of PHEV miles in Norway are all-electric.

Uh huh, and that's great. but with BEVs costing less than ICEs plus all their other financial perks, and (according to you) they have the same capability as and greater convenience than ICEs, why don't they make up 100% of sales; why would anyone need to waste money on (ICE-equipped) PHEVs?

You may want to find Norway on a map. Note its relation to the artic circle.

 

[GRA]

Cars with plugs make up 74% of sales in Norway in 2020.

More than half of PHEV miles in Norway are all-electric.

Uh huh, and that's great. but with BEVs costing less than ICEs plus all their other financial perks, and (according to you) they have the same capability as and greater convenience than ICEs, why don't they make up 100% of sales; why would anyone need to waste money on (ICE-equipped) PHEVs?

You may want to find Norway on a map. Note its relation to the artic circle.

Why yes, it gets cold there, but as I wrote above according to [WetEV], BEVs have the same capability as ICEs. I take it that you along with me disagree with his assertion. One suspects that BEVs are unlikely to be the vehicle of choice in Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, etc. anytime soon for a similar reason, aside from the political and (lack of) infrastructure ones.

 

[SageBrush]

Why yes, it gets cold there, but as I wrote above according to [WetEV], BEVs have the same capability as ICEs. I take it that you along with me disagree with his assertion. One suspects that BEVs are unlikely to be the vehicle of choice in Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, etc. anytime soon for a similar reason, aside from the political and (lack of) infrastructure ones.

As I wrote before, you are once again barking up the wrong tree.
If a country that is 1/3 in the arctic circle can reach 60% BEV in 5 years, it speaks to EV strength. And keep in mind that there are still absences of EV in a multiplicity of market segments

 

[WetEV]

This was in '97 or '98

Too bad technology hasn't changed at all since last century.

 

[GRA]

Why yes, it gets cold there, but as I wrote above according to [WetEV], BEVs have the same capability as ICEs. I take it that you along with me disagree with his assertion. One suspects that BEVs are unlikely to be the vehicle of choice in Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, etc. anytime soon for a similar reason, aside from the political and (lack of) infrastructure ones.

As I wrote before, you are once again barking up the wrong tree.
If a country that is 1/3 in the arctic circle can reach 60% BEV in 5 years, it speaks to EV strength. And keep in mind that there are still absences of EV in a multiplicity of market segments

Then we disagree. If a country that subsidizes BEVs so that they're actually cheaper to buy than straight ICEs, plus gives them numerous other subsidies and perks that make them far cheaper to own, can only get to 54.3% of sales in five years says that lack of capability and lack of infrastructure remain major problems.

 

[GRA]

This was in '97 or '98

Too bad technology hasn't changed at all since last century.

That's ridiculous. How has L1 charging changed in the interim? That was the issue we were discussing, and it hasn't - the standard house circuit is still 120V @ 15A, 20A if a kitchen or utility circuit, and you're limited to 12 or 16A max. continuous whether it's this century or last. You'll get the same 3-5 miles of range/hour charging now as you would then.

 

[WetEV]

That's ridiculous. How has L1 charging changed in the interim? That was the issue we were discussing, and it hasn't - the standard house circuit is still 120V @ 15A, 20A if a kitchen or utility circuit, and you're limited to 12 or 16A max. continuous whether it's this century or last. You'll get the same 3-5 miles of range/hour charging now as you would then.

Try the exact same trips in a 40kWh LEAF.

 

[GRA]

That's ridiculous. How has L1 charging changed in the interim? That was the issue we were discussing, and it hasn't - the standard house circuit is still 120V @ 15A, 20A if a kitchen or utility circuit, and you're limited to 12 or 16A max. continuous whether it's this century or last. You'll get the same 3-5 miles of range/hour charging now as you would then.

Try the exact same trips in a 40kWh LEAF.

As I already wrote, the radius before it becomes a problem increases with a car having greater range. Which is neither here nor there, the issue is arriving home at a low state of charge and then needing to go out again shortly after, and also needing to make up the extra usage.

You never answered why you switched to L2 from L1, if it worked so well for you.

 

[WetEV]

Which is neither here nor there, the issue is arriving home at a low state of charge and then needing to go out again shortly after, and also needing to make up the extra usage.

Could happen with any size battery and any rate of charge. I might do a 180 mile drive in the e-tron and return home, and need to take another 180 mile drive. Right. The larger the battery and the higher the rate of charge, the less likely this would ever happen.

As for making up the usage, if you drive more than about 7 * 10 * 3 miles per week or more, you don't make it up. That's not unrealistic, about half of people drive more. And half drive less.

You never answered why you switched to L2 from L1, if it worked so well for you.

EV Project.

 

[SageBrush]

Could happen with any size battery and any rate of charge. I might do a 180 mile drive in the e-tron and return home, and need to take another 180 mile drive. Right. The larger the battery and the higher the rate of charge, the less likely this would ever happen.

My variant of this is forgetting to charge. It has happened at least once. Not exactly the end of world scenario since I just popped into a Supercharger for a few minutes.

 

[GRA]

Could happen with any size battery and any rate of charge. I might do a 180 mile drive in the e-tron and return home, and need to take another 180 mile drive. Right. The larger the battery and the higher the rate of charge, the less likely this would ever happen.

My variant of this is forgetting to charge. It has happened at least once. Not exactly the end of world scenario since I just popped into a Supercharger for a few minutes.

The availability of QCs does make a difference. There were none, or even any public L2s available when I had the Think. Still, the closest ones to me are 2 miles away, and it takes a lot longer to charge than it does to get gas. Which is one reason I'm a fan of 800+V packs. Hyundai claims 62 miles (probably WLTP) of range in 5 minutes, from a low SoC no doubt.

 

[SageBrush]

Could happen with any size battery and any rate of charge. I might do a 180 mile drive in the e-tron and return home, and need to take another 180 mile drive. Right. The larger the battery and the higher the rate of charge, the less likely this would ever happen.

My variant of this is forgetting to charge. It has happened at least once. Not exactly the end of world scenario since I just popped into a Supercharger for a few minutes.

The availability of QCs does make a difference. There were none, or even any public L2s available when I had the Think. Still, the closest ones to me are 2 miles away, and it takes a lot longer to charge than it does to get gas. Which is one reason I'm a fan of 800+V packs. Hyundai claims 62 miles (probably WLTP) of range in 5 minutes, from a low SoC no doubt.

The world has progressed since the THINK. You should too.

My Tesla is a 96S battery (aka "400 volts"). Its peak charging at a low SoC is about 80 - 85 EPA miles of range in 5 minutes

 

[GRA]

Which is neither here nor there, the issue is arriving home at a low state of charge and then needing to go out again shortly after, and also needing to make up the extra usage.

Could happen with any size battery and any rate of charge. I might do a 180 mile drive in the e-tron and return home, and need to take another 180 mile drive. Right. The larger the battery and the higher the rate of charge, the less likely this would ever happen.

Seeing as how I limited where I drove to the radius of the car, as noted a longer range just boosts the useful radius. Doesn't change how long it takes me to replenish range from a low SoC. As I said, it was a matter of being able to drive another 20-50 miles (plus maintain an emergency reserve), added at 3-5 miles/hr. charging. Even if I were willing to do without the reserve (not, if it were my sole car), I was looking at a minimum of 3 hours, more realistically 4-5 since I would be driving most of the way on the freeway, just to reach the nearer of the two destinations. The longer trip, it would have been the next day before I could have taken it. Seeing as I was invited over for dinner and/or to watch a game that night, neither of the trips was practical, if a BEV had been my sole car, as it would be if I got one.

As for making up the usage, if you drive more than about 7 * 10 * 3 miles per week or more, you don't make it up. That's not unrealistic, about half of people drive more. And half drive less.

Indeed, the issue is how much you need to drive the next day. IIRR, the Think took around 14 hours to fully re-charge on L1, although not everyone would need a full charge. Since I didn't need it to commute that wasn't a problem for me, but even if you've got enough time, off-peak rates have limited hours. L1 fails the flexibility test, unless you've got a big enough battery and/or never go anywhere near the max. range, and never drive anywhere spontaneously.

You never answered why you switched to L2 from L1, if it worked so well for you.

EV Project.

Was the EVSE and install free, or did you have to pay anything?

 

[GRA]

My variant of this is forgetting to charge. It has happened at least once. Not exactly the end of world scenario since I just popped into a Supercharger for a few minutes.

The availability of QCs does make a difference. There were none, or even any public L2s available when I had the Think. Still, the closest ones to me are 2 miles away, and it takes a lot longer to charge than it does to get gas. Which is one reason I'm a fan of 800+V packs. Hyundai claims 62 miles (probably WLTP) of range in 5 minutes, from a low SoC no doubt.

The world has progressed since the THINK. You should too.

My Tesla is a 96S battery (aka "400 volts"). Its peak charging at a low SoC is about 80 - 85 EPA miles of range in 5 minutes

I'm aware of Tesla's charging speed, although as I'm not interested in a Tesla that knowledge is academic for me. Also, as I'm mainly interested with trips, while initial added range is nice in the situation described above, time to 80 or 100% is more important to me, and the 800+V packs appear to and should win that race:

The next chart (not the most accurate though), confirms that in the first part, the Tesla Model 3 LR has a big advantage over the Hyundai Ioniq 5, however the South Korean car is the first that hits the 80% SOC mark - after about 15 minutes.

The difference compared to Teslas is roughly 9-11 minutes (24 minutes 2019 Model 3, 26 minutes 2021 Model 3). That 10 minute difference is a huge gap in the fast charging. A big win for the Hyundai Ioniq 5 for now, but we need independent test samples to confirm that

https://insideevs.com/news/506759/tesla-model3-hyundai-ioniq5-charging/


I still need a bigger pack, as the range remains inadequate for anything much beyond weekend trips and the charging infrastructure is still limited to non-existent in too many places I go or want to, but at least the down-time due to charging is reduced to a semi-acceptable level.


BTW, most of Norway isn't as cold as you think it is:

Although it occupies almost the same degrees of latitude as Alaska, Norway owes its warmer climate to the Norwegian Current (the northeastern extension of the Gulf Stream), which carries four to five million tons of tropical water per second into the surrounding seas. This current usually keeps the fjords from freezing, even in the Arctic Finnmark region. Even more important are the southerly air currents brought in above these warm waters, especially during the winter.

The mean annual temperature on the west coast is 45 °F (7 °C), or 54 °F (30 °C) above average for the latitude. In the Lofoten Islands, north of the Arctic Circle, the January mean is 43 °F (24 °C) above the world average for this latitude and one of the world’s greatest thermal anomalies. Norway lies directly in the path of the North Atlantic cyclones, which bring frequent gales and changes in weather. Western Norway has a marine climate, with comparatively cool summers, mild winters, and nearly 90 inches (2,250 mm) of mean annual precipitation. Eastern Norway, sheltered by the mountains, has an inland climate with warm summers, cold winters, and less than 30 inches (760 mm) of mean annual precipitation.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Norway/Climate

Checking my Atlas, I find that the average January low temp in Oslo, below the Arctic Circle, is -7C (19.4 deg. F). Even Narvik, above the circle but at the head of a fjord on the west coast, also averages a low of -7C in January, and the fjord stays ice-free. By contrast, Duluth MN.has an average January low temp of -18C (-0.4 deg. F), while Bismarck, ND is -19C (-2.2 deg. F), owing to the fact that they are in the middle of a continental land mass.

Also, the vast majority of the population lives south of the Arctic Circle: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...on-density-of-first-generation_fig1_311456632

 

[SageBrush]

I'm aware of Tesla's charging speed, although as I'm not interested in a Tesla that knowledge is academic for me. Also, as I'm mainly interested with trips, while initial added range is nice in the situation described above, time to 80 or 100% is more important to me, and the 800+V packs appear to and should win that race:

The next chart (not the most accurate though), confirms that in the first part, the Tesla Model 3 LR has a big advantage over the Hyundai Ioniq 5, however the South Korean car is the first that hits the 80% SOC mark - after about 15 minutes.

The difference compared to Teslas is roughly 9-11 minutes (24 minutes 2019 Model 3, 26 minutes 2021 Model 3). That 10 minute difference is a huge gap in the fast charging. A big win for the Hyundai Ioniq 5 for now, but we need independent test samples to confirm that

https://insideevs.com/news/506759/tesla-model3-hyundai-ioniq5-charging/

The world according to GRA: if a THINK cannot do it in 1970, it does not exist.

You have been had. The Ioniq charging times have NOTHING to do with the 800v system. That is just unused capacity that fudges the 80% number. Calculate the C rate over time.

 

[GRA]

I'm aware of Tesla's charging speed, although as I'm not interested in a Tesla that knowledge is academic for me. Also, as I'm mainly interested with trips, while initial added range is nice in the situation described above, time to 80 or 100% is more important to me, and the 800+V packs appear to and should win that race:

The next chart (not the most accurate though), confirms that in the first part, the Tesla Model 3 LR has a big advantage over the Hyundai Ioniq 5, however the South Korean car is the first that hits the 80% SOC mark - after about 15 minutes.

The difference compared to Teslas is roughly 9-11 minutes (24 minutes 2019 Model 3, 26 minutes 2021 Model 3). That 10 minute difference is a huge gap in the fast charging. A big win for the Hyundai Ioniq 5 for now, but we need independent test samples to confirm that

https://insideevs.com/news/506759/tesla-model3-hyundai-ioniq5-charging/

The world according to GRA: if a THINK cannot do it in 1970, it does not exist.

You have been had. The Ioniq charging times have NOTHING to do with the 800v system. That is just unused capacity that fudges the 80% number. Calculate the C rate over time.

I have no idea what a Think from the '90s has to with with Current QC times, but I don't need to calculate the C rate over time, as they did so in the article:

[/quote]Comparison of C-rate

With similar battery sizes for all three cars (see the table below), the peak C-rate values are around 3. The 2019 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD was even able to reach 3.3 and maintain it. That's more than the Hyundai Ioniq 5.

The key point is that the average charging power in the 20-80% SOC range is significantly higher in the Hyundai Ioniq 5 - 180 kW compared to 106-113 kW in Teslas. The time is also much shorter in the Hyundai Ioniq 5.

Comparison of range replenishing speed

We will compare the range replenishing speed of the two Tesla Model 3 using the EPA Highway range rating as a base. The new version has a little bit of more range - 333.8 miles (537 km) compared to 297.2 miles (478 km) - which reduces the difference in power.

Overall, the 2019 model year version is a few percent quicker in the 20-80% SOC range (see the table below):

More interesting to us is the comparison with the Hyundai Ioniq 5 - using WLTP (the only common range rating) as a base.

As it turns out, despite the higher WLTP range of 614 km (382 miles) vs about 480 km (298 miles), the 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD is not able to beat the Hyundai Ioniq 5 in the 20-80% SOC window. It means that the slightly bigger and less efficient Model Y LR AWD will not beat the Ioniq 5 either.
[/quote]


What I and everyone else waiting for a charge to finish care about is total charging time to a given range before we can be on our way again on a trip.

 

[WetEV]

Could happen with any size battery and any rate of charge. I might do a 180 mile drive in the e-tron and return home, and need to take another 180 mile drive. Right. The larger the battery and the higher the rate of charge, the less likely this would ever happen.

Seeing as how I limited where I drove to the radius of the car, as noted a longer range just boosts the useful radius. Doesn't change how long it takes me to replenish range from a low SoC.

IF your goal is to "prove" that L1 isn't going to work, then driving the car to empty and not being able to take another trip is a good plan.

"Driving the radius" is a bad idea, most of the time.

Indeed, the issue is how much you need to drive the next day.

With a small battery relative to daily use, of course. With a larger battery, there is more flexibility for spontaneous driving.

Was the EVSE and install free, or did you have to pay anything?

Free to me. Employer suggested, wasn't all my decision.

 

[WetEV]

The world according to GRA: if a THINK cannot do it in 1970, it does not exist.

What was the Think's DCQC rate?