First Public Charger in San Diego 6/16 Show up to Support!

[davewill]

...this is ripe for monopolistic overcharging.

Yep. And will be until the infrastructure is built out and there are millions of EVs on the road. It may turn out that EVs in the future will all have 300+ mile ranges and there will be no market for public L2 charging...or public charging may be literally everywhere and cheap, and nobody will see the need to waste money and resources on more than 100 miles of range built into the vehicle since they can plug in every time they park. Exciting times, huh!

 

[wsbca]

Prices are ..... set by .... competition.

I'll be sure to let you know how it goes when I endeavor to place some competitively priced EVSE's in Balboa Park....

 

[davewill]

Prices are ..... set by .... competition.

I'll be sure to let you know how it goes when I endeavor to place some competitively priced EVSE's in Balboa Park....

You talk like it's impossible for another company to be in Balboa Park. I doubt Ecotality got a monopoly. Getting a lease to put some EVSEs on the other side of Park Blvd, or over at the zoo, is likely quite possible. Not easy, and not cheap, but possible.

 

[wsbca]

Prices are ..... set by .... competition.

I'll be sure to let you know how it goes when I endeavor to place some competitively priced EVSE's in Balboa Park....

You talk like it's impossible for another company to be in Balboa Park. I doubt Ecotality got a monopoly. Getting a lease to put some EVSEs on the other side of Park Blvd, or over at the zoo, is likely quite possible. Not easy, and not cheap, but possible.

I would submit that getting the units themselves for free from the DOE is as effective as being granted an monopoly, since that puts up an insurmountable fiscal barrier to entry. Of course it's not clear that it will be Ecotality themselves owning the revenue stream (the fact that the Fleet theater is paying for now points away from that - although I have to believe that's only for the 3 units in their lot, not the aerospace museum lot...sloppy reporting perhaps. The mention of charges appearing on your SDG&E bill is another odd twist - that might actually imply a fair price for the electricity given the constraints a utility operates under.)

Anyway, I'm actually with you on the concept that in the large, competition will drive the pricing of the electricity to exactly where it should be - what bothers me is that we might never get to the place where competition can have any effect, if all these premature pricing machinations end up discouraging people from actually buying the cars...the vast majority of consumers emphatically do not take a macro view and assume competition will ensure future equity and therefore jump into the game, they operate under micro constraints. We've all invested in the concept for our own reasons, but frankly we're a bunch of fringe lunatics at this stage, and it doesn't matter if we can convince ourselves that the free hand could take care of it eventually, what matters is how it looks right now to those who are on (or behind) the fence.

 

[OilFreedom]

Let's keep in mind that until now, oil companies (collectively) have had a monopoly on the vehicular energy supply. If you want to buy gas, your only option is a gas station. :evil:

EVs introduce a new paradigm whereby we can choose to use public chargers (the EV equivalent of a gas station) or not since we can also charge at home. :mrgreen: When is the last time anyone filled up their ICE car's gas tank at home?!

So, even if there were to be just one company deploying public chargers (and there are several), and further, if that company were charging super high rates, so what! Just charge at home and reserve the public chargers for emergencies or longer trips. If people elect not to use public chargers because of the high price, the prices will come down. Remember, we don't have any such leverage with the gas stations! Gotta love game changers!

 

[LEAFguy]

I would submit that getting the units themselves for free from the DOE is as effective as being granted an monopoly, since that puts up an insurmountable fiscal barrier to entry.

Anyone can buy one of these right now for less than $1,000:

All they need is a 240 volt source, they can charge a use fee, and they're in business. I don't see that as "an insurmountable fiscal barrier to entry". They might even get a deal if they bought in quantity. Charge $1 per hour to use it and you've recouped equipment costs in 1,000 hours of use. (Yes... I know there is more to it than that. But not a lot more... )

 

[papatonyinsd]

Here's the picture that I posted showing all 49 VISIBLE plug-in cars (I spotted #50, a Cayenne Red Leaf) down at a lower level, later on:

 

[ElectricVehicle]

If the parking is free for all then the nominal charge for the electricity should near cost or just free IMO. If all others park free then why is EV parking suddenly a profit center? I don't get that.

Electrics are niche, and will be for a generation more, at least. If you want plentiful chargers, and generally reserved parking spots just for you, then expect that those who provide it will want a slice of the pie.

If the price is too high for you, don't use it. If enough folks do that, the price will come down.

If we pay the cost for the dedicated space, that is way higher than the cost for the EV charging. We're also trying to incentivize these vehicles... Or maybe we should look at the other way araound, and charge all the gasoline only vehicles an emissions Parking Fee as their exhaust degrades the local air quality for employees and customers.

Seriously, this needs to work for all parties, but keep in context all the subsidies the business already gives out to customers and the relative costs. The Parking space cost and value far, far outweighing that of the EV charger or the electiricity used to charge EVs.

With all the hard work going to make EVs more attractive to the general public, policies that penalize EVs or single them out for monetary charges far above the status quo of existing similar situations need to be addressed and corrected, for all parties. Another excellent example is why it costs $1500 to install an EV charger on a 240V 40A circuit when installing a 240V 40A dryer outlet can be done by a professional residential electrician for under $400? These kind of cost exagerations that discriminate against EVs will kill mass adoption. And it's something we can collectively address and correct with the help of all stakeholders.

 

[rhover]

Here's the picture that I posted showing all 49 VISIBLE plug-in cars (I spotted #50, a Cayenne Red Leaf) down at a lower level, later on:

I think there may have been close to 55 Leafs there. I was in the red Leaf to the rear of that white van way in back, and that photo was taken around 10:30am, before I and a couple of other Leafs pulled in. After that there was no more room in that part of the lot so they put sawhorses behind us. Any Leaf that arrived afterward had to find another place to park. There was another white Leaf that was way to the left of the picture and had to go elsewhere too.

I meant to look for Chevy Volts - were there any there?

 

[smkettner]

Another excellent example is why it costs $1500 to install an EV charger on a 240V 40A circuit when installing a 240V 40A dryer outlet can be done by a professional residential electrician for under $400?

And why bother with 40a if they are so scared of the electric cost? Give use twice as many at 20a or even 10a (240v) free along the back wall.
And further cut cost by just installing non-networked evse and leave them open for use by all.

Enough, my ranting is over now

 

[KeiJidosha]

[*]Before the end of the year you will need to give credit card info to activate your card.

Thus answering the one big question I had. I like the billing aspect AND the charger reservations....although the latter might prove problematic. (what if I reserved a charger (thus blocking your use of it) and then never show?)

Not a big deal, but on my way back, the Anaheim City Hall ChargePoint showed "Available" so I stretched past Irvine as SOC was above plan. When I arrived, charger was ICE'd. By Anaheim parking enforcement vehicle. Doh!

Fortunatly, you could still "Card" the charger to cancel the reservation fee.

 

[davewill]

Not a big deal, but on my way back, the Anaheim City Hall ChargePoint showed "Available" so I stretched past Irvine as SOC was above plan. When I arrived, charger was ICE'd. By Anaheim parking enforcement vehicle. Doh!

Fortunatly, you could still "Card" the charger to cancel the reservation fee.

You should definitely report the incident to both ChargePoint and City Hall. A polite note may get some response. I bet the parking enforcement guys assumed that no one ever uses it. It may do no good, but it's worth trying.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

A colleague of mine is interested in EVs, and she was amazed by 1.) the actual physical existence / delivery of a mass-market EV, and 2.) the large number of EVs at the event and already gliding around San Diego! These kinds of events are huge for raising awareness, although I wish the TV news coverage had been better. I'm sure all the cars leaving the event at the same time raised the profile among other drivers on the surrounding roads.

Excellent! Letting people like you friend see these vehicles, find out more about them and listening to their concerns so we can address them is going to help us get to mass market adoption and make a significant difference!

Regarding the cost of charging at the public Level 2s, I am not concerned. Yes, the cost will be higher than at home. However, I believe most people will typically charge at home (and/or at work if you're lucky). I see the public chargers as being a back-up charging solution or for range-extension on longer trips. Therefore, I don't see people using them as their primary means of charging. If it was the reverse, then I would be concerned.

I'm very concerned, because people will do the math, or journalists will. If you have a Plug In Hybrid, $2.50 an hour to charge the small amount of energy in the Plug In Hybrid pack won't make any sense, so instead of using public charging to further reduce our gasoline usage and dependence on foreign oil, they'll just burn more gasoline in their Plug In Hybrid. because at $2.50 / hour of charge gasoline will be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper!! $2.50 / hour of charge without regard to the actual amount of charging energy is going to defeat some of hte benefits of EVs.

Even in our LEAFs when we usually only need to charge for trips to the neighboring cities, if we have a lot of errands, say to 5 different locations, to run that exceed our range, and maybe we're only at each place for 20 minutes, paying a $2.50 minimum for each plug in, that would be a total of $12.50. With a second car in the household, even we as LEAF owners, may say to heck with it - I'll take the other (gasoline) car and save $10 running all these errands.

High costs for public charging ENCOURAGES THE USE OF MORE GASOLINE! :evil: :roll: :idea: :evil:

 

[OilFreedom]

The Leaf is not intended to be a long-distance car. The solutions are: keep another (longer range) vehicle in your household and charge the Leaf mostly at home. Just use the Leaf on shorter trips, and you'll mostly be charging at home.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

The Leaf is not intended to be a long-distance car. The solutions are: keep another (longer range) vehicle in your household and charge the Leaf mostly at home. Just use the Leaf on shorter trips, and you'll mostly be charging at home.

Cost effective public charging can extend the range of the LEAF so you can leave the gas car at home more often. Maybe you only need another 10 miles range. or maybe it's an all day trip to a city 50 miles away, without cost effecitve public charging, you'll LEAF the LEAF at home and take the gasser. But if you're destination city has convenient, cost effective public charging, you can take the LEAF, saving 2-4 gallons of gas on that trip alone. You plug in at your destination city for 6 hours while you're doing your business or leisure and then have an almost full LEAF to drive home in. Or use a fast charger, when they finally roll out. Of course for a driving vacation in the Grand Canyon, take the Prius, but that's not an every day event.

One thing public charging does is to extend the utility and range of the LEAFs 100 (closer to 70) mile battery pack. If we have effective public charging, the car can have a smaller battery and lower range, without public charging you need a bigger battery and more range to increase the market appeal, but now the car is several thousand dollars more expensive to purchase to pay for the bigger battery and lack of effective public charging. The Mitsubishi iMiev has a shorter range of 75 miles, but the product strategy is to rely on the frequent use of public Level 3 Quick Chargers to effectively get more range and utility out of the car everyday. That's a pretty nice concept for reducing the vehicle purchase price that will work very well for some people if the public charging is at a reasonable cost for the energy and utility it provides.

Besides, why would we want to invest all this public money and grants into a public charging infrastructure that is ineffective because the pricing is whack? We're trying to reduce emnissions and energy consumption, particularly energy imported from outside the US. Effective public charging can help us on the path to OilFreedom.

I'd rather help the market find a realistic business model that benefits all parties than stand by and watch it fail.

 

[Covinaman]

If the price is too high for you, don't use it. If enough folks do that, the price will come down.

Fair enough - what I'm worried about is the folks who don't yet have cars, perhaps in part because they have been led to believe the infrastructure is the key (because people keep saying that loudly at infrastructure rollout events) and it's prudent to wait for it.

Then, they might start doing the math on the pay-to-play infrastructure, and that doesn't pencil out - it ends up making EVs sound more expensive to operate than ICE vehicles, so they give up on the concept of an EV, or delay even more, not realizing or accepting that the infrastructure is not really needed in most cases. So orders lag, and manufacturers get skittish, and it all fizzles, for no reason. It's potentially catastrophic. It's simply way too soon to be (talking about) trying to make lots of money on electricity for cars that don't exist yet.

I'm co-signig every thing you just said. Do we really need 1000s of commercial charging stations of just a few stratigically placed, fast chargers (ok, paid) and low cost or no cost charging stations?

 

[Covinaman]

Prices are ..... set by .... competition.

I'll be sure to let you know how it goes when I endeavor to place some competitively priced EVSE's in Balboa Park....

You talk like it's impossible for another company to be in Balboa Park. I doubt Ecotality got a monopoly. Getting a lease to put some EVSEs on the other side of Park Blvd, or over at the zoo, is likely quite possible. Not easy, and not cheap, but possible.

,
I heard this interview on the subject " . . Car Charging Group Inc. Michael Farkas. Michael will be talking about the market for electric cars and the infrastructure CCGI is building to insure that all the electric cars have enough places around to charge their electric batteries and keep them running green. "

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/stulustman/2011/06/13/ccgi-car-charger-group-ceo
This company like other companys are creating multi year exclusive leases at malls, and other places to ensure monopolys.

 

[papatonyinsd]

I think there may have been close to 55 Leafs there.

I wouldn't be surprised at all. Can you imagine what the turnout would have been if it hadn't been on a weekday morning when so many people needed to be at work?

I meant to look for Chevy Volts - were there any there

None whatsoever, and I looked at every single car in the area. Here's my theory:

It was Leon.

Leon, who works for Mossy Nissan Kearny Mesa, had an exciting idea when he heard that the mayor, SDG&E, Blink and Ecotality were unveiling ten new charging-stations in Balboa Park. He realized that he could invite all of us through email so that we could be there in a huge crowd. Somehow, the same concept never occurred to folks at the the Chevy dealerships, and the opportunity was lost. It takes somebody with leadership skills to gather folks together in a common vision.

Two of the cars were plug-in second-generation Priuses (custom-built, NOT by Toyota, which be delivering a third-generation model in 2012), and one Mini-E. The rest were Nissan Leafs. The speakers were all extremely jazzed that so many of these cars showed up. As far as anyone knows, this is the largest gathering of plug-in cars, anywhere, ever in history. This is just the beginning!

There are seven new charging-stations directly in front of the Aerospace Museum and the Automotive Museum. The other three charging-stations are behind the Reuben H. Fleet center: two regular ones on the left, and one for Disabled Parking on the right, behind Mayor Jerry Sanders in the picture below. At the moment, all ten stations don't cost anything to use (I WAS going to say "Free of Charge", but that would have been a bad thing).

We were told that the Reuben H. Fleet building has enough solar-panels on the roof to power all fifty or so cars!

 

[shtimseht]

Yes - I too agree that we have to give a fair amount of credit to Leon for rallying his customers. I'm sure the number of nissan leafs was larger than 50. Mine was the last white one in the double parked rows of the photograph. I counted at least 4 others that drove in after me and had to park in the adjoining lots just off picture.

Plus there were the ones that parked at the other chargers in front of the gymnasium / Air and Space.

I too was impressed. Maybe one day that's what Leon's dealership will look like, but for now I don't think he can keep them on the lot long enough to peal away the shrink-wrap before they drive off with their new owners.

It was a fun distraction from the work-day.

 

[ttweed]

I'm sure the number of nissan leafs was larger than 50. Mine was the last white one in the double parked rows of the photograph. I counted at least 4 others that drove in after me and had to park in the adjoining lots just off picture.

Plus there were the ones that parked at the other chargers in front of the gymnasium / Air and Space.

My wife drove her's by as well, but was a little late, as she had to take her mom to a doctor appointment at Balboa Naval Hospital at 10:30, so the festivities had already concluded when she got there. She did see some Leafs in the area still (maybe the model railway guys?) and parked at one of the chargers to check it out. She plugged in but didn't have a card to activate the Blink unit. Hope they mail them out next week as promised. We've been waiting for the RFID card since the middle of May, but until now there was nowhere to use it.

TT