Enphase field MTBF: M190: ~36 Years M215: ~316 Years M250: >357 Years

[jturbo68]

Hi All,

Just Joined this site and found this thread.

I have had an array with 30 M190s and just experienced my 8th failure in the 4 years since the array went online.

Just started asking to the M190IG upon replacement.
Unfortunately I installed the array DIY, so have to replace the inverters myself, it is less than fun given the pitch of my roof.

Have there been any proactive replacements of M190s or discounts to proactively replace with 215s?

Thanks

 

[RegGuheert]

Just Joined this site and found this thread.

Welcome!

I have had an array with 30 M190s and just experienced my 8th failure in the 4 years since the array went online.

Can you provide a link to your system so that I can add it to the spreadsheet? TIA.

Just started asking to the M190IG upon replacement.

Have you received any M190IGs so far, or all originals?

Unfortunately I installed the array DIY, so have to replace the inverters myself, it is less than fun given the pitch of my roof.

Me, too, but my roof is not too steep (7/12 pitch).

Have there been any proactive replacements of M190s or discounts to proactively replace with 215s?

Yes, but not recently. You can read some discussion in this thread starting with this post. But that was with D380 inverters, not M190s. Enphase's latest firmware update seems to eek out a bit more life from the M190s, assumedly to help Enphase with their cash flow. I have no complaints about that approach, as it delays when I receive NEW replacements.

 

[Weatherman]

I've updated the spreadsheet to show 16 failures in your system. Is that correct?

18 replacements, so far, with seven others operating in degraded mode with grid-gone events. Only six out of the thirty are still functioning ok.

Quick update...

21 replacements, so far, with five others operating in degraded mode with grid-gone events. Only five of the original thirty are still functioning ok.

 

[RegGuheert]

21 replacements, so far, with five others operating in degraded mode with grid-gone events. Only five of the original thirty are still functioning ok.

Thanks for the update. Did you get M190s or M190IGs with this last batch of failures?

I have had no failures since the last one at the end of April. OTOH, the number of inverters reporting daily "Grid Gone" events has grown from one after the replacement at the end of May to SEVEN today. Still, most of these "Grid Goners" do not show any reduction in their production and the ones that do have reduced output are very close to their neighbors.

But I suspect I will be following the path of Weatherman sooner rather than later.

It's been a few months since we have had a round of updates. Please post to let me know whether you have seen any failures with your system or the others you are reporting on. (Please include the row numbers from the spreadsheet for reports other than your own so that I know which entries to edit.) TIA!

 

[BN12595]

I also just found this thread.

I have 18 (M190s).

The system was installed 4 years ago.

I've had 4 of the 18 fail completely. But I have 4 more that are in a death spiral. They will crash at the peak of the day then restart, but won't get back up to full production that day. A couple will crash more than once a day. It appears that they will crash more often on sunny days when the array approaches peak production. I've been working with Enphase on the issue. They admit they are crashing, but because of the firmware upgrade that restarts the inverter, they will not replace them until they die.

I've looked at the warranty description for the M190s, but it only says they will replace them if defective. My question is, isn't this a defect? As it is, I have to live with the reduced productivity of these inverters until they finally die. They are taking longer to die than others because mine are top of pole mounts that have a lot of air flow under them (I suspect).

I'm just glad I got Enlighten Manager before they stopped giving that detailed visibility to new customers.

 

[Weatherman]

I've looked at the warranty description for the M190s, but it only says they will replace them if defective. My question is, isn't this a defect? As it is, I have to live with the reduced productivity of these inverters until they finally die.

It's difficult to make generalizations, since it seems Enphase is treating each m190 owner differently, but with my system the criteria they've set for replacement is if the total energy output for any microinverter, over an extended period of time (like several weeks), is more than 10% less than its nearby neighbors. Of course it helps if the defective micro is giving grid-gone events.

Enphase was sending me IG replacements for a long time, then, just recently, sent me a batch of five of the older models. However, the very last replacement was an IG, again. I don't have many left to replace. Would be nice if they were all IGs from now on. Their energy output appears to be just a bit higher than the older m190s.

 

[RegGuheert]

Limp-Along Firmware:
- 121045414867 - Garage, Middle, Second from the left
- 121045415714 - House, Middle, Third from the left

As such, I currently have 10% of the original M190s on the Primary Watch List, 10% on the Secondary Watch List and 5% on Enphase's Limp-Along Firmware. We'll see if the next failures come from these groups or from elsewhere in the array.

It looks like the next failure is the "Limp-Along" unit on the garage. It stopped reporting yesterday morning. Now only one inverter is spitting out daily "Grid Gone" events.

That post was made on April 30, 2015. Since that time, six more inverters have become Grid Goners. That makes seven total including the one on the house listed above. Interestingly, while I have had a bunch of "Grid Goners" spring up during the very hot periods of this summer, I have not had any failures.

It's difficult to make generalizations, since it seems Enphase is treating each m190 owner differently, but with my system the criteria they've set for replacement is if the total energy output for any microinverter, over an extended period of time (like several weeks), is more than 10% less than its nearby neighbors. Of course it helps if the defective micro is giving grid-gone events.

IMO that is entirely fair. For reference, here is a plot of the last eighteen days of production for my system (the longest period available since part of the array was disconnected for upgrades):

Note that most of the "Grid Goners" produce the same as their neighbors and the worst one is only about 4% worse in production. What I find funny is that only the newest "Grid Goners" underproduce their neighbors. The ones that have been reporting the error for some time seem to have "recovered" somehow and do not show any abnormal behaviors other than the reporting of "Grid Gone". IMO, good on Enphase for this firmware change, since it is as much in my best interest to have these last as long as possible as it is in theirs!

BTW, while it might appear that four of the six new "Grid Goners" cropped up in the field array, that is not accurate. Actually, five of the six new "Grid Goners" appeared on the roof of the house and I moved them to the field array during the upgrade to make them easier to access when it is time for their replacement.

Enphase was sending me IG replacements for a long time, then, just recently, sent me a batch of five of the older models. However, the very last replacement was an IG, again. I don't have many left to replace. Would be nice if they were all IGs from now on. Their energy output appears to be just a bit higher than the older m190s.

I'm glad to hear they have gotten back to shipping out the M190IGs. With my recent upgrades, I now have Engage positions for four new-style inverters. (Of course that is not really required, since they provide the M190-syle pigtails to allow them to be inserted into the M190 sections of the array. It's just that I prefer the Engage installations over the older approach.)

 

[BN12595]

I've had 4 of my 18 inverters replaced since 2011, but several others in their death throws.

Mine are on top-of-pole mounts so they have faired better than others where they are mounted against a hot roof with little air flow.

But it still sucks to have to watch them daily for the next failure. You would think these things would be covered by "lemon laws".

When they crash daily and have to restart, that is NOT NORMAL OPERATIONS and I would think that would fail standards of quality and performance as required by lemon laws (below).

"Lemon laws are American state laws that provide a remedy for purchasers of cars and other consumer goods in order to compensate for products that repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance."

 

[RegGuheert]

I've looked at the warranty description for the M190s, but it only says they will replace them if defective. My question is, isn't this a defect?

It's a good question. I think the metric of "10% lower energy production than neighbors" that Enphase uses is a decent measure for "defective" since, together with the new firmware, it gives the units a bit more time before they need to be replaced. As you can see from the picture I posted above, none of the seven "Grid Goners" that I currently have are close to that threshold right now. Most produce on-par with their neighbors and the worst is only down 4%. What is interesting with the new firmware is that these units are worse when the first fail, then their performance improves until they ultimately fail. The two units in my system with the worst performance right just recently started giving the "Grid Gone" reports. Most of the others used to have lower performance but now show no real drop in production. With the original firmware, these inverters typically would be dead within a couple of weeks. Now they often last for an additional year or more.

There is another statement which Enphase had on the original M190 datasheet (which was removed on more recent ones):

- MTBF of 331 years

If someone wanted to pursue Enphase on anything on that datasheet, that might be the best choice. They made the mistake of not specifying that that was a CALCULATED number. In your case, you measured MTBF is around 18 years.

They are taking longer to die than others because mine are top of pole mounts that have a lot of air flow under them (I suspect).

Not really. Yours seem about "normal" to me (for M190s). The MTBF of my roof-mounted M190 inverters is about 3X what yours is and member "drees" has 18 M190s that were installed on his roof in March of 2010 and he has not yet had a single failure. Weatherman is on the other side of the equation with an MTBF of only 4 years.

The good news in all of this is that Enphase is honoring their warranty and replacing failures. Yes, we all now have what I call "limp-along" firmware to eek out another year or so from these things, but that is all for the good in my opinion. At the end of the day, it appears that we may all end up with a bunch of next-generation microinverters as replacements that have the potential to allow us to get 30+ years out of our monetary investments. But, yeah, we have had to spend our precious time on these things, as well.

BTW, if you provide a link to your system, I can add it to my spreadsheet.

 

[RegGuheert]

For reference, here is a plot of the last eighteen days of production for my system (the longest period available since part of the array was disconnected for upgrades):

Note that most of the "Grid Goners" produce the same as their neighbors and the worst one is only about 4% worse in production.

Another inverter joined the "Grid Goners" yesterday. It is located on the garage directly below the left unit circled in the above image. That brings my system to 8 "Grid Goners" and 4 replacements out of the original 42 in 4.5 years of service. (As mentioned, some of the "Grid Goners" no longer exhibit spurious production.)

How about a round of reports on failures/non-failures out in the field? If we get enough reports with no M215 failures, the MTBF for those units should go beyond 1000 years!

 

[DaveEV]

How about a round of reports on failures/non-failures out in the field? If we get enough reports with no M215 failures, the MTBF for those units should go beyond 1000 years!

No failures on my 18 M190s (row 28) or my co-worker's 34 M215s (row 144).

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I have an array of 16 M215s. I've had one fail at about 3 years post-install. Of course, the unit was covered under warranty. So I called up my installer, he ordered a replacement, and came to install it when it arrived. No fuss, but the process (including discovery of the problem - my alerts were turned off by default ) took almost 3 months. The installer left the old inverter sitting in a bush. I have been meaning to dissect the thing, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

[RegGuheert]

I have an array of 16 M215s. I've had one fail at about 3 years post-install.

Thanks for the heads-up! That's the oldest M215 that I have ever heard has failed. Let's hope it is not the beginning of a trend like we saw with the M190s.

Of course, the unit was covered under warranty. So I called up my installer, he ordered a replacement, and came to install it when it arrived. No fuss, but the process (including discovery of the problem - my alerts were turned off by default ) took almost 3 months.

Was it COMPLETELY dead, or was it underproducing the other inverters?

The installer left the old inverter sitting in a bush.

That's really surprising to me. I would think Enphase would want each and every M215 failure in their hands right now since there are so few. Clearly your installer screwed up.

I have been meaning to dissect the thing, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

If you ever do, I'm interested to learn what you see in there!

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Of course, the unit was covered under warranty. So I called up my installer, he ordered a replacement, and came to install it when it arrived. No fuss, but the process (including discovery of the problem - my alerts were turned off by default ) took almost 3 months.

Was it COMPLETELY dead, or was it underproducing the other inverters?

It was completely dead (producing zero power for about 3 months before it was replaced).

The installer left the old inverter sitting in a bush.

That's really surprising to me. I would think Enphase would want each and every M215 failure in their hands right now since there are so few. Clearly your installer screwed up.

That's the story of my life with this (local) contractor. During the installation process (which took a full 12 months, BTW), he left me high and dry for months at a time. He wouldn't answer his phone, return voicemails, or emails. When he did get back to me, it was with one excuse or another, and frequently with incorrect information. I basically had to do all the paperwork with NYSERDA (New York State Energy Research and Development Authority) myself (they were offering a rebate of $1.75/DC watt). But I digress...

I have been meaning to dissect the thing, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

If you ever do, I'm interested to learn what you see in there!

I will try to remember to post here with pictures - probably worth starting a new thread.

 

[RegGuheert]

I will try to remember to post here with pictures - probably worth starting a new thread.

Thanks! Agreed a new thread is the best thing to do.

I completely forgot to ask you to provide the public link to your system so that I can add it to my spreadsheet. Can you please do that?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I will try to remember to post here with pictures - probably worth starting a new thread.

Thanks! Agreed a new thread is the best thing to do.

I completely forgot to ask you to provide the public link to your system so that I can add it to my spreadsheet. Can you please do that?

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/FS7746053

 

[RegGuheert]

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/FS7746053

Thanks!

I added your system as line 145 of my spreadsheet. Please check to see if I made any mistakes. In particular, I put you down for a failure of your Envoy at the end of January this year. But I'm wondering, given the winter you guys had up there, if your array was simply covered with snow during the ENTIRE month of February and half of March! If that is what really happened, please let me know and I will set your Envoy failures back to 0.

The measured MTBF for your the M215 inverters in your system comes in at 60 years right now.

The overall MTBF for all M215s in the spreadsheet has now dropped down to 670 years. I've updated the OP for this thread to reflect that.

 

[RegGuheert]

In particular, I put you down for a failure of your Envoy at the end of January this year. But I'm wondering, given the winter you guys had up there, if your array was simply covered with snow during the ENTIRE month of February and half of March! If that is what really happened, please let me know and I will set your Envoy failures back to 0.

Nevermind. I see now that your array gets covered with snow EVERY year in a similar fashion. (That's gotta hurt production, huh?)

Anyway, I've set the spreadsheet entry for your system back to 0 Envoy failures.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

In particular, I put you down for a failure of your Envoy at the end of January this year. But I'm wondering, given the winter you guys had up there, if your array was simply covered with snow during the ENTIRE month of February and half of March! If that is what really happened, please let me know and I will set your Envoy failures back to 0.

Nevermind. I see now that your array gets covered with snow EVERY year in a similar fashion. (That's gotta hurt production, huh?)

Anyway, I've set the spreadsheet entry for your system back to 0 Envoy failures.

Yup, that's exactly what happened. No Envoy failure here. My panels produced all of 184 Wh (yes, watt-hours) during all of February 2015. Most days the panels didn't have enough power to turn on the inverters, and produced a nice round goose egg. The "good news" is that it is so cloudy here during the winter that I'm not missing out on much. Others have tried to come up with a way to clear snow off the panels, but it just isn't worth it to me.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Your note says that I report a failure in January 2015. I think the failure was actually August 2014. I tried looking it up, but my contractor removed the old microinverter from the list and I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly when it happened.