i have the car 5 months now n the first few months i was using l1 charger at home n work n my bill was under 50 a month. i decided to buy a l2 charger n use it at home n never charge at work n my bill came in at 150 a month. if u can stick with your l1 charger n charge at home n work that is the best way to go. once in a blue moon if i need a little quicker charge i use the l2 but like i said it is once in a blue moon.
electric bill shock
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Stoaty
Well-known member
If you were doing half your charging at work, then $50 X 2 = $100 would be the expected bill if you did all your charging at home. Not knowing your rate structure (Time of Use, or Tiers with increasing prices) it isn't possible to say exactly why your bill was higher. Perhaps you used more electricity in the winter???
The only thing known for sure is that L2 charging is more efficient than L1 charging, so the switch to L2 would be expected to decrease your electricity usage (all other things being equal), not increase it.
The only thing known for sure is that L2 charging is more efficient than L1 charging, so the switch to L2 would be expected to decrease your electricity usage (all other things being equal), not increase it.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Care to post your electric provider's rate schedule and/or tier calculator?
How many kWH in a month were you using before and after?
Keep in mind, charge efficiency is lower at 120 volts than 208/240 volts. Thus, most energy is thrown away when you charge at lower voltages.
How many kWH in a month were you using before and after?
Keep in mind, charge efficiency is lower at 120 volts than 208/240 volts. Thus, most energy is thrown away when you charge at lower voltages.
You need to read the details of your electric usage and rate tiering. Also, your kw/mile is going to be higher in the winter months as well
L2 will actually use less KW to charge than L1. There is a 300 watt cooling system that will run when you are charging, no matter the rate you are charging. Therefor if your car is receiving 1440 watts from a traditional wall socket then really only 1140 watts are going into the battery or 79%. With L2 the numbers change a bit for the better, reaching in the high 80's and low 90s % efficiency.
I think you are see the affects of two things...
A: 50% of your charging used to occur at work, not on your power bill.
B: winter time milage can easily be 25% + (especially with this crazy winter) less efficient in kw per mile. More so if you like to use the heater (who doesn't)
To me, it is perfectly explainable. Use your work place L1 charing if you can, and continue to charge more efficiently with your L2 EVSE. Else your $150 bill maybe $170 next month.
L2 will actually use less KW to charge than L1. There is a 300 watt cooling system that will run when you are charging, no matter the rate you are charging. Therefor if your car is receiving 1440 watts from a traditional wall socket then really only 1140 watts are going into the battery or 79%. With L2 the numbers change a bit for the better, reaching in the high 80's and low 90s % efficiency.
I think you are see the affects of two things...
A: 50% of your charging used to occur at work, not on your power bill.
B: winter time milage can easily be 25% + (especially with this crazy winter) less efficient in kw per mile. More so if you like to use the heater (who doesn't)
To me, it is perfectly explainable. Use your work place L1 charing if you can, and continue to charge more efficiently with your L2 EVSE. Else your $150 bill maybe $170 next month.
smkettner
Well-known member
Are you sure other electric use at home has not increased?
If your utility offers TOU rates with low overnight cost it may help. Sure saved me.
If your utility offers TOU rates with low overnight cost it may help. Sure saved me.
Stoaty
Well-known member
Since you asked a very similar question several months ago, perhaps you should read the answers:tjw said:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14772" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PS L1 is about 75% efficient, L2 about 85%.
There has a been a big rate increase for electricity in the US this Winter. I suggest you compare the rates for 1KWH then and now.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
a $100 increase? ok, lets blame it on the car. so if you are paying 15 cents a kwh (which might be a bit high) that is 666 kwh. if you are getting 3 miles per kwh that means you drove 2,000 miles last month...so did you drive that far or should we be looking at other reasons your power bill went up?
the other thing is that you would have had to have charged 21.5 Kwh EVERY with the above parameters to have amassed a bill that high.
I track every penny of my transportation cost and I mean EVERY penny. my power rates are probably lower than yours but I still used 388 Kwh at home driving 1661 miles
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/02/tco-jan-2014-drive-report.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
now, my power bill went up too but probably more to do with less daylight hours, a rate increase and colder weather.
the other thing is that you would have had to have charged 21.5 Kwh EVERY with the above parameters to have amassed a bill that high.
I track every penny of my transportation cost and I mean EVERY penny. my power rates are probably lower than yours but I still used 388 Kwh at home driving 1661 miles
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/02/tco-jan-2014-drive-report.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
now, my power bill went up too but probably more to do with less daylight hours, a rate increase and colder weather.
smkettner
Well-known member
Our standard rate top tier is 31 cents kWh. NY could well be higher.
I don't have the numbers, but our electric bill went up about $100 for everything including the cars. Someone who drives a lot could easily pay $75 more, and blame the whole increase on the car.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Dave, you're forgetting that you're in a state blessed w/cheap electricity.DaveinOlyWA said:
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says the average retail price of electricity to residential in November 2013 in NY 18.48 cents/kwh vs. 16.80 cents/kwh for CA and only 8.70 cents/kw for WA.
We'll still need more info from the OP as he's not in the same provider as I am.
Planet4ever helped me run some calculations before based upon (now old) PG&E rates at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155519#p155519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Unfortunately, the tier calculator at http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is broken right now (if it were, you could put in 95136, gas and no for CARE). I get allocated 11.0 kWh/day in "summer" and 11.7 in "winter". So, for a 30 day period, I'd receive a winter baseline of 351 kwh.
At the 101-130% portions (351 to 456 kwh), I'd need to pay 15 cents/kwh.
For the 131-200% of baseline (456 to 702 kwh), I'd need to pay 32.3 cents/kwh.
For the 201% and beyond portion (beyond 702 kwh), I'd need to pay 36.3 cents/kwh.
These values come from page 1 of http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Imagine if someone is at the 351 kwh baseline and they add 666 kwh, taking them to 1017 kwh in a month. I suspect the OP has also some rather unfriendly tiers.
No state tiers (as in that aggressively) like CA - none. It is really hard to justify to a population that charging 10 times the wholesale rate for electricity is reasonable. While not a bad idea to curb use, it is a pretty hard sell. Both coal and NG cost about 4 cents to generate a Kwh.
You might find it hard to believe, but many places actually charge less with more usage. When you figure a big part of the charge is maintaining the lines to the house, it actually makes sense to charge less with more usage.
NY is higher than average for sure. But I think we all know something else is going on. Electricity use goes up in the winter and I am not just talking about the car.
I drive 1000 miles a month for $12 or so. That is 5 cents a kwh. At NY rates, that should be $35-$40. Sure he could drive 2000 miles and get up to $100. But that isn't typical use and why/how could someone do that and not charge at work?
You also have to wonder about someone who is on this forum (and posted about something similar) that doesn't realize L2 is more efficient than L1....
You might find it hard to believe, but many places actually charge less with more usage. When you figure a big part of the charge is maintaining the lines to the house, it actually makes sense to charge less with more usage.
NY is higher than average for sure. But I think we all know something else is going on. Electricity use goes up in the winter and I am not just talking about the car.
I drive 1000 miles a month for $12 or so. That is 5 cents a kwh. At NY rates, that should be $35-$40. Sure he could drive 2000 miles and get up to $100. But that isn't typical use and why/how could someone do that and not charge at work?
You also have to wonder about someone who is on this forum (and posted about something similar) that doesn't realize L2 is more efficient than L1....
cwerdna
Well-known member
^^^
On the above subject, it often irks me when people talk about going to a TOU plan and then quoting only some really low off-peak rate. Well, yeah, it's low but isn't so low once you pass the 131% of baseline mark and it's horrifically high during "summer" peak times (Mon thru Fri 1 to 7 pm), ranging from 28.7 cents/kwh to almost 52 cents/kwh. And, for some (many?), the baselines are a joke.
See page 2 of http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
The electricity draw of my house is not 0 during peak times and for some folks, there are people home consuming electricity during those "peak" times.
And, other quote rates stuff by conveniently (?) leaving off random components of the rates (e.g. transmission, nuclear decommissioning, etc.), rather than going by the total. Sometimes, this leads to head scratchers and not believing what the person posted at all. (I've seen some CA rates for quoted by some folks here on MNL and a few other boards that seem TGTBT. And sometimes, when the TGTBT rates are questioned, there's no response.)
And, yes, I've lived in WA state myself for over 9 years.... and was in the city of Seattle for about 1 year, where I had the benefit of VERY cheap City Seattle Light. Puget Sound Energy was more $, but still way cheaper than PG&E.
On the above subject, it often irks me when people talk about going to a TOU plan and then quoting only some really low off-peak rate. Well, yeah, it's low but isn't so low once you pass the 131% of baseline mark and it's horrifically high during "summer" peak times (Mon thru Fri 1 to 7 pm), ranging from 28.7 cents/kwh to almost 52 cents/kwh. And, for some (many?), the baselines are a joke.
See page 2 of http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
The electricity draw of my house is not 0 during peak times and for some folks, there are people home consuming electricity during those "peak" times.
And, other quote rates stuff by conveniently (?) leaving off random components of the rates (e.g. transmission, nuclear decommissioning, etc.), rather than going by the total. Sometimes, this leads to head scratchers and not believing what the person posted at all. (I've seen some CA rates for quoted by some folks here on MNL and a few other boards that seem TGTBT. And sometimes, when the TGTBT rates are questioned, there's no response.)
And, yes, I've lived in WA state myself for over 9 years.... and was in the city of Seattle for about 1 year, where I had the benefit of VERY cheap City Seattle Light. Puget Sound Energy was more $, but still way cheaper than PG&E.
DNAinaGoodWay
Well-known member
tjw said:
25A @ 240V = 6,000W, not 4800, maybe 3.5 hours tops for a full charge.
L1 is not cheaper. Your battery will take the same amount charge, whatever it needs to get to 100% say, whether you use L1 or L2, but L1 being less efficient, it will draw more Watts from the wall than L2 would have for the same battery charge, and waste more that doesn't get into your battery, but you will still extra pay for it.
So, your paying extra, and the car is less usable because you have to wait for it to charge all the time.
Funny thing is, whatever your electric bill goes up, what is that to what you paid for gas?
KillaWhat
Well-known member
I get so tired of these sort of discussions without enough information.
I pay .08 per Kw.
Night Day Whatever.
If I use 15Kw per day (thats 3/4 of my usable pack) EVERY DAY, thats $1.20 per day, $36.00 per month.
What is up with you people.
My ICE car is an AUDI A3 TDI, about the most efficient ICE in the world.
My wife drives it, and putting $50 a week in the tank is pretty typical.
If you are spending $150 per month on electric, then you are:
1) Either incorrect and need to get a TED meter
2) Correct, and need a better charging strategy
3) Need to charge more at work
Either Way, L2 charging is MORE efficient than L1.
I pay .08 per Kw.
Night Day Whatever.
If I use 15Kw per day (thats 3/4 of my usable pack) EVERY DAY, thats $1.20 per day, $36.00 per month.
What is up with you people.
My ICE car is an AUDI A3 TDI, about the most efficient ICE in the world.
My wife drives it, and putting $50 a week in the tank is pretty typical.
If you are spending $150 per month on electric, then you are:
1) Either incorrect and need to get a TED meter
2) Correct, and need a better charging strategy
3) Need to charge more at work
Either Way, L2 charging is MORE efficient than L1.
mkjayakumar
Well-known member
My increase in electricity bill for me here in Texas due to charging the Leaf is just noise in summer - around $30. I haven't maintained accurate logs or anything, but I am looking at the bills over the years and Leaf charging doesn't register as any spike.
1300 miles a month, with 4 miles/kWh gives me 325 kWh and at 0.9c/kWh it is around $29 per month approx...
1300 miles a month, with 4 miles/kWh gives me 325 kWh and at 0.9c/kWh it is around $29 per month approx...
cwerdna
Well-known member
FYP.
Your electricity is way cheaper than what I can dream of in CA.
Since you're in PA, http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says the average retail price of electricity to residential in Nov 2013 in PA is 12.97 cents/kwh vs. NY's 18.48. That makes NY's over 40% higher.
And yep, L2 is more efficient than L1.
Agree. Need more info, otherwise we're making virtually blind guesses.KillaWhat said:
Your electricity is way cheaper than what I can dream of in CA.
Since you're in PA, http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says the average retail price of electricity to residential in Nov 2013 in PA is 12.97 cents/kwh vs. NY's 18.48. That makes NY's over 40% higher.
And yep, L2 is more efficient than L1.
UBUYGAS
Well-known member
I'm in NJ, I pay 10.5 cents per kWh 24 hours a day.
My electric bill has gone up around $45 a month since April/May 2013 with I bought the LEAF.
I only drive 1100 miles a month.
My electric bill has gone up around $45 a month since April/May 2013 with I bought the LEAF.
I only drive 1100 miles a month.
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