Do Volt drivers drive more EV miles than Leaf owners ?

[RonDawg]

If you think commuting in crowded conditions is unpleasant, how about living in close proximity to others, with shared walls, and having little private land space? The former is only for a few hours per work day; the latter is there all of the time when you're at home.

Why do you need to be crowded just to avoid travelling long distances? The two things are not logically dependent. They have been made so by the proliferation and ease of availability of passenger vehicles and fuel (viz. the evolution of extended and distant suburbs from the parent town that are made more readily habitable by ease of personal transport). But they need not necessarily be dependent. Are you saying it is inevitable that you have to be crowded to avoid travelling long distances?

In most cases, the closer you get to the city center, the more expensive land becomes. The more expensive land becomes, the more likely you will see higher density housing.

Exceptions here in the US are cities that through economic circumstance have experienced severe de-population. You can get a house super, super cheap real close to downtown Detroit. Whether you'd want to live in such a neighborhood, and whether the house that comes with it (if there's a house left on that property at all) will require extensive work to be safely habitable is a different story.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Just out of curiosity:

What is the minimum amount of gas a Volt will burn? The gas used just when the engine starts itself periodically for testing or whatever. If a Volt driver never used the ICE to extend range.

 

[Weatherman]

Every six weeks, it will run about a 10-minute "engine maintenance mode" (EMM). The amount of gas used is very small, maybe 0.03 gal. I've seen two of these since I got my Volt. Haven't used gas, otherwise.

Apparently, once a year, it will run a "fuel maintenance mode" (FMM). If I recall correctly, it will burn off at least half of the amount of gas in the tank (it will, also, start bugging you about adding fresh fuel to the tank). So, if you only keep, maybe, two gallons, it will burn off at least one of them. If you have the misfortune of having a nearly full tank, for whatever reason, when FMM starts, it may burn off four or five gallons before ending.

I still have three gallons, which the dealer gave me when they delivered the car. I would not be surprised if I didn't use them until FMM starts next year. I'll let the car burn off most of it, then fill it back up with about two gallons to minimize the FMM burn in 2015.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Wow, thanks, you sure answered my question. I could live with that if a Volt was ever my only car.

Is it worth it to use a stabilizer in your gas?

If the ICE runs that little, can you skip oil changes?

 

[Weatherman]

Is it worth it to use a stabilizer in your gas?

Probably not. I think the car's computer calculates the appropriate FMM burn time based on the average age of the gas you have in your tank. It doesn't matter what other characteristics it might have. If it reaches a certain, average age it will be burned off. By the way, the Volt has a very special gas tank that is kept sealed and under pressure to prevent the more volatile gas components from evaporating away. When you add gas to the tank, you press a button and it goes through a very elaborate "unseal" process before opening the gas cap. After gas is added, it reverses the process and reseals and pressurizes the tank, again.

If the ICE runs that little, can you skip oil changes?

The car also keeps track of oil age and will display it as a selectable item on the console. My guess is that, if you don't do anything but EMMs and one FMM per year the oil will last a very long time, but not indefinitely.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

DNAinaGoodWay, have you considered changing your slogan from "Proudly getting zero miles per gallon" to "Proudly getting <undefined> miles per gallon" or "Proudly getting not-a-number miles per gallon"

 

[CMYK4Life]

I dont know if Volt owners drive more EV miles than Leaf owners. Who cares?

Isnt the important thing that BOTH Volt and Leaf owners are ussing less gas and are pulling EV tech forward?

I have owned the Leaf for 155 days or so and average 44 miles a day. My M-F 'daily grind' commute is ~32 miles. I tend to drive even more on weekends.

I feel like I drive the Leaf MORE than my old ICE car. My daily grind was the same but I used to drive a lot less on weekends because I would always weigh my activity against $20-$50 in gas round trip.

For a guy like me, towards the end of the month... you decline those BBQ invitations or informal visits to family because you cant afford another tank of gas.

The Leaf eliminates the fuel cost for me and replaced it with a TIME cost (time to charge + time to drive a slower route). I currently have more TIME than $$.

 

[TimLee]

I think you're wrong, however, in thinking that the fact you get more zero emissions from a Volt than from a Leaf is meaningless. Anything but silly, that fact has a lot of policy implications.

I never said that. You have restated it quite differently than what I said. Here is what I commented on and said:

I don't understand all the bickering on this thread. There's no point debating which is better, volt or leaf, when the winner has been clearly established: volt AND leaf!

+1
A silly debate.
The Volt is clearly an electric vehicle, until the ICE starts.
People that either wanted the flexibility of a single vehicle and / or had somewhat longer commutes and could live with the smaller size of the Volt, did what was smart for them and bought the Volt.
People that were able to make the LEAF work for their commute, or committed to do all electric whatever it took, or that want the larger space of the LEAF, they bought the LEAF.
With the nominal 40 to 60 mile range of the LEAF, its not very surprising that the LEAF selecting eV Project participants would probably be biased to lower average miles, where the LEAF range is less of a concern.
Why all the debate over something so non-surprising? :? :?

If the data shows that you get more zero emissions from a Volt than from a Leaf, it definitely isn't meaningless. It is interesting, although it isn't all that surprising.
What is silly is the bickering over whether LEAF or Volt is better.
Miles driven electric is interesting, but it isn't the whole story. It is just one piece of the puzzle.
Overall efficiency and cost effectiveness of each vehicle, and that includes ALL externalities, is the comparison that has to be done.
Just looking at miles driven electric does not answer the overall question of which is BETTER.

 

[ht2]

Can you provide a link to the DOE study you mention.

I am one of those guys that believe you can make stats say anything but I think SanDust is referring to the EV Projects quarterly reports. You can find them here: http://www.theevproject.com/documents.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Specifically, if you open The 2013 2nd Quarter Report and look at pages C-2 and D-2, you will see that the average EV Project Leaf driver drives 29.5 miles per day and the average EV Project Volt driver covers 41 miles per day.

"The average EV Project Volt driver covers 41 miles per day."
But percent of total distance traveled by EV mode is only 74.6%.
So my understanding is the average EV Project Volt driver drives 30.5 EV miles (41x0.746) and 10.5 gasoline miles per day.

If this is true it's almost same to me. (30.5 vs 29.5)
The average Leaf driver drive miles per day will increase because more DCQC are coming.

 

[scottf200]

Apparently, once a year, it will run a "fuel maintenance mode" (FMM). If I recall correctly, it will burn off at least half of the amount of gas in the tank (it will, also, start bugging you about adding fresh fuel to the tank). So, if you only keep, maybe, two gallons, it will burn off at least one of them. If you have the misfortune of having a nearly full tank, for whatever reason, when FMM starts, it may burn off four or five gallons before ending.

My Volt is 2.5 years old and I have never seen FMM. I would only put in $10 worth at a time tho. In the first 1.5 years I hardly used gas. Now I don't in typically weeks driving but have no qualms about road trips. Went 320 miles last weekend. It is a great ride.

By the way, the Volt has a very special gas tank that is kept sealed and under pressure to prevent the more volatile gas components from evaporating away. When you add gas to the tank, you press a button and it goes through a very elaborate "unseal" process before opening the gas cap. After gas is added, it reverses the process and reseals and pressurizes the tank, again.

Here are the complete details:
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Mar/0311_Volt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Volt engineers and supplier Spectra Premium Inc. developed the tank from 1.4 millimeter thick hot-dip tin-zinc coated steel to resist corrosion from both inside and outside. Despite the strength of the tank, it has a mechanical pressure relief valve that begins opening at 3.5 psi and a vacuum relief that opens at -2.3 psi, levels that are rarely exceeded.

Even with a tank that resists fuel vapors escaping or humidity getting in, the gas inside still needs to be used up and replenished periodically. That’s where the Volt’s “maintenance mode” comes in. If the engine hasn’t started after six weeks, the powertrain controller sends a message to the driver telling him the engine needs to run for maintenance."

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The Leaf eliminates the fuel cost for me and replaced it with a TIME cost (time to charge + time to drive a slower route). I currently have more TIME than $$.

Really, really, like this. Thanks for spending the time to write it.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

DNAinaGoodWay, have you considered changing your slogan from "Proudly getting zero miles per gallon" to "Proudly getting <undefined> miles per gallon" or "Proudly getting not-a-number miles per gallon"

No

 

[swaltner]

"The average EV Project Volt driver covers 41 miles per day."
But percent of total distance traveled by EV mode is only 74.6%.
So my understanding is the average EV Project Volt driver drives 30.5 EV miles (41x0.746) and 10.5 gasoline miles per day.

If this is true it's almost same to me. (30.5 vs 29.5)
The average Leaf driver drive miles per day will increase because more DCQC are coming.

Nope, the 30/10 miles on electricity/gas is not what they are saying.

The 74.6% is of the TOTAL miles driven, not of the average miles per vehicle. A good example that would show the difference is the following:

- "Fleet" of two Volts.
- Both are able to drive 50 miles per day on the battery, gasoline after that
- Vehicle one drives 20 miles strictly on Battery
- Vehicle two drives 60 miles: 50 of those are on battery, 10 on gas

Your average driving per day is 40 miles (i.e.: (20+60)/2)
Your fleet drives 87.5% (ie: 70/80) of the miles on EV mode.

Here, the average miles/day is 40 miles. Any vehicle that drives 40 miles in a day does ALL of those miles on electricity, and in fact, anyone that drives up to 25% over the average fleet miles/day does those miles on electricity. You can't apply that 87.5% (calculated from total fleet miles) to the 40 mile average to get any number of meaning. If you know the total fleet miles/day, you could use the % to calculate that the EV miles/day were, which would be meaningful.

 

[SanDust]

"The average EV Project Volt driver covers 41 miles per day."
But percent of total distance traveled by EV mode is only 74.6%.
So my understanding is the average EV Project Volt driver drives 30.5 EV miles (41x0.746) and 10.5 gasoline miles per day.

You can't use average miles per day like this. Although the average miles a day will be the same, driving a Volt 40 miles on two days will NOT result in the same number of zero emission miles as driving a Volt 80 miles on one day and letting it sit the next day.

You don't BTW have to derive the number of electric miles the average Volt and the average Leaf goes. The study actually counts the miles. Just divide the total number of zero emission miles you get from the Volt fleet by the number of Volts in the fleet and the total number of miles you get from the Leaf fleet by the total number of Leafs in the fleet. You'll find the average Volt produces about 20% more zero emission miles than the average Leaf.

 

[RegGuheert]

Nope, the 30/10 miles on electricity/gas is not what they are saying.

The 74.6% is of the TOTAL miles driven, not of the average miles per vehicle. A good example that would show the difference is the following:

- "Fleet" of two Volts.
- Both are able to drive 50 miles per day on the battery, gasoline after that
- Vehicle one drives 20 miles strictly on Battery
- Vehicle two drives 60 miles: 50 of those are on battery, 10 on gas

Your average driving per day is 40 miles (i.e.: (20+60)/2)
Your fleet drives 87.5% (ie: 70/80) of the miles on EV mode.

Here, the average miles/day is 40 miles. Any vehicle that drives 40 miles in a day does ALL of those miles on electricity, and in fact, anyone that drives up to 25% over the average fleet miles/day does those miles on electricity. You can't apply that 87.5% (calculated from total fleet miles) to the 40 mile average to get any number of meaning. If you know the total fleet miles/day, you could use the % to calculate that the EV miles/day were, which would be meaningful.

Taking a percentage of the total or taking the same percentage of the average yield the same result. Why? Because the average is simply the total divided by the number of vehicles.

In your example, I can calculate the average number of EV miles each car drives by multiplying 87.5% times the average of 40 miles to yield 35 miles, which IS the average number of EV miles each car drove.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Nope, the 30/10 miles on electricity/gas is not what they are saying.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim 40 miles/day then claim its all electric.

The 40 miles per day is an average. Likewise the percent electric is an average. You can combine the two to deduce 30.5 miles/day electric average.

I can pick my own example,
Vehicle A drives 10 miles on battery one day.
Vehicle A drives 70 miles next day, 35 electric, 35 gas.
Average mileage is 40 miles/day.
% electric is (35/80) 43%.

You can't arbitrarily change the % electric. If you have some other statistic thats fine, but can't change the values of this study.

There's no support for the statement that "Any vehicle that drives 40 miles in a day does ALL of those miles on electricity". The Volt is rated 35 or 38 miles electric depending on year and can certainly do less (or more) depending on speed. Likewise the statement "anyone that drives up to 25% over the average fleet miles/day does those miles on electricity" is unsupported. Just because you may be able to get 50 miles electric doesn't mean everyone does.

 

[hill]

This is still bickering . . . . no matter how you spin it. Pages & pages - & the question STILL hasn't been answered. If your electricity comes from a coal shute - then your not really running on as clean a fuel as those who run on renewables. If you have to have a pissing contest it ought to be based on something of more substance. - imo.

That said - 80% of our 33,000 miles (39mile/day average) were PV generated, with the remaining 20% being derived from a mix of hydro/natural gas/coal. Any takers? Oh - and 50% of the total are car pool miles too.

.

 

[SanDust]

In your example, I can calculate the average number of EV miles each car drives by multiplying 87.5% times the average of 40 miles to yield 35 miles, which IS the average number of EV miles each car drove

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim 40 miles/day then claim its all electric.

You guys are funny. As I tried to point out above, it's not "miles per day". It's "miles per day when driven".

You have 4261 Leafs in the study. You say they go an average of 29.5 miles a day. (They don't. They go 29.5 miles a day on days when they're driven). If this were true then these Leafs would go 4261 X 365/4 X 29.5 miles. That would be 11,470,079 miles. But the study says they only went 8,040,300 miles. Long story short: the Leafs stay parked on more days, presumably because on 25% of the days they can't make the trip.

 

[RegGuheert]

You guys are funny. As I tried to point out above, it's not "miles per day". It's "miles per day when driven".

Thanks! I missed that.

I guess that's useful for planning future EVs, but not for this discussion.

You have 4261 Leafs in the study. You say they go an average of 29.5 miles a day. (They don't. They go 29.5 miles a day on days when they're driven). If this were true then these Leafs would go 4261 X 365/4 X 29.5 miles. That would be 11,470,079 miles. But the study says they only went 8,040,300 miles. Long story short: the Leafs stay parked on more days, presumably because on 25% of the days they can't make the trip.

I agree that it means they stayed parked on those days. And it looks like it is 30% of the days. No presumption about why they stayed parked can be made, however.

 

[hill]

You guys are funny. As I tried to point out above, it's not "miles per day". It's "miles per day when driven".

Thanks! I missed that.

I guess that's useful for planning future EVs, but not for this discussion.

You have 4261 Leafs in the study. You say they go an average of 29.5 miles a day. (They don't. They go 29.5 miles a day on days when they're driven). If this were true then these Leafs would go 4261 X 365/4 X 29.5 miles. That would be 11,470,079 miles. But the study says they only went 8,040,300 miles. Long story short: the Leafs stay parked on more days, presumably because on 25% of the days they can't make the trip.

I agree that it means they stayed parked on those days. And it looks like it is 30% of the days. No presumption about why they stayed parked can be made, however.

Like I mentioned above ... car pooling in another Leaf?