Debating canceling my order

[Googler]

I'm leaning toward canceling my order. In my case my disillusionment is not with Nissan but with PG&E and AV. Due to special conditions in my household, my marginal cost of electricity is going to be about $0.38 per kw/h. I am not going to install photovoltaic panels, and since I have a solar pool heater, switching to the E9A rate will dramatically increase my electricity rate to run the pool pump when the sun is shining. Switching to the E9B rate is also probably not feasible since I am unable to upgrade my service to 200Amps without considerable expense. The quote from AV was almost $3K for a very poor installation. I will be able to charge the car at work, but frankly I have concluded that the PG&E situation is so dismal that I should just cancel it. Has anyone else been thinking the same thing?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Why do you need to upgrade to 200A service? What is it now, and hasn't it been working fine?

Is the service panel in the garage? $3k is absurd unless there's something extenuating, like maybe your house is on the ocean floor.

 

[planet4ever]

It doesn't make sense that E9B should cause a service upgrade to 200A. You won't be using any more electricity with E9B than you would with E9A. And, unlike E9A, E9B won't put any additional load on your breaker panel.

But all that aside, what was your reason for wanting a LEAF? Was it really to save money? No matter how cheap a person's electricity is I don't think there is any way that a LEAF, calculated over its lifetime, can save money over a $15K economy car.

If you don't have a really long commute then just charge at work whenever you can and trickle charge at home when you have to. Forget about fighting PG&E or AV, and forget about the cost of the electricity -- even at 38 cents/kWh it's only going to cost you around 12 cents/mile, and you could easily be spending more than that just on gas, let alone the other expenses that come along with an ICE.

Think about the problems of peak oil, or sending money to the Saudis, or pouring carbon into the atmosphere. Think about doing your little part to solve those problems, or about having the coolest vehicle on the block, or whatever reasons may have drawn you to the LEAF in the first place. All those reasons are still there.

 

[smkettner]

If you can charge at work for 50% does that not cut your cost in half?
I would still go for it.

But as said if the only motivation is low cost Leaf may not be the answer.
Most cars are bought for enjoyment and not just low cost.

Oh and get someone else to estimate the work besides AV that seems to run double to triple the cost.
Depending on your commute you might be better to get any electric work done after you get the car.

 

[SanDust]

You can separately meter just the EV charger so the pool pump and the rest of your house won't affect your EV charging rates.

I also don't see any reason to upgrade to 200 amp service if you have 125 amp service. Even if you didn't have 125 you could probably get by.

But if you aren't comfortable getting the car don't do it.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Local codes and inspectors may see it differently, but I'd think anyone who has an electric range or electric dryer almost certainly could get by with their existing home service since those items would not be used in the middle of the night when the car is charging. The pool pump also wouldn't likely to be running at the same time as the car charging, although the pool pump isn't 3.3kw.

 

[TRONZ]

Never, Ever, Ever Cancel!!! Unless you really need your $99 back right away follow the process through until the car arrives in Port. Just cancel before your dealer gets it so Nissan can re-allocate it. IMHO, Keep all your options open! At the current pace of the Roll-Out you will have got alot more (free) time to look at all your options... and maybe a nice glimps at this summers gasoline prices.

 

[bpifer]

Post removed by poster.

 

[smkettner]

If load is the issue to go to 200a maybe consider a Leviton that only needs a 20a circuit instead of AVs 40a requirement.

 

[cinmar]

I don't recall -- PG&E can't force you to switch to an E9 rate, correct? I have a large Koi pond with a pump that runs all day, plus PV panels that cover less than 100% of our electric usage, and we're sticking with E1 so our daytime rates don't exceed what they are now.

 

[DaveEV]

If you're worried about charging costs - get a Prius. Most will get 45-50 mpg. Let's assume that it's 45 mpg to be conservative. It appears that most are getting about 3 mi / kWh from the wall on the LEAF right now, so let's run the numbers.

Regular gas appears to be around $3.35 / gallon in your area.

So at 45 mpg fuel costs per mile is about 7.4 cents / mile.

To match that cost in the LEAF, you would be paying about 22.2 cents / kWh.

Or, at 38 cents / kWh, you're fuel costs are 12.7 c / mile - or about the same as a gas car getting 26 mpg. Which is pretty average unless you are driving a hybrid or diesel or something.

Of course, that ignores all the other benefits/drawbacks of electric cars how fuel costs may change in the future.

But it's pretty clear that TOU charging is just about a necessity in CA to make driving an electric car less expensive than driving a Prius/Insight/Diesel Jetta/etc.

 

[SanDust]

If you're worried about charging costs - get a Prius.

But it's pretty clear that TOU charging is just about a necessity in CA to make driving an electric car less expensive than driving a Prius/Insight/Diesel Jetta/etc.

A Prius will save driving costs but its higher price means that something like a Honda Fit is more economical overall. The Prius was never about saving money.

TOU isn't the only or even the best solution for lowering EV charging rates. The problem for EVs is that with tiered pricing the additional power consumption pushes the rate per kWh into higher priced tiers. This can be avoided either through TOU pricing, as you've suggested, or through a separate meter. If he separately metered his charger for a one time charge of $250 his cost per kWh would be six cents off peak, which translates to less than two cents a mile. Gas would have to be $1/gallon for a Prius to match that.

Generally speaking separate meters are a better solution because they offer more flexibility. The only downside is that there is usually an install charge or a monthly fee.

 

[DaveEV]

A Prius will save driving costs but its higher price means that something like a Honda Fit is more economical overall. The Prius was never about saving money.

Sure - but that was the OP's concern. If you're worried about total cost of ownership - you'd never buy a new car, you'd only buy a used car. Or you'd buy a bare-bones Nissan Versa or Hyundai Accent.

BTW - Edmunds doesn't show that much of a difference in the TCO between the Fit/Prius. I checked out somewhat similar models and the Prius costs about $3k more after 5 years - about 10%. Much less than the sticker price difference of $7k. The Prius has the lowest TCO in it's class - and the Fit is not in the same class as the Prius.

The only downside is that there is usually an install charge or a monthly fee.

Or both. Some utilities have a minimum charge (for example SDGE has a $0.17 / day minimum charge / meter) - others have a service charge that gets added for each meter regardless. There will always be some cost associated with installing a separate meter - though the cost may be nominal if done the same time the EVSE is installed.

 

[Ready2plugin]

PG&E 9a/b are not manditory, you don't have to change from E1. There are advantages to the new rates and I'm switching to E9a. I have a pool too with a solar heater. I figure since I have to run the pump all year, that during the 8 months I don't use the pool, I'll run it at night when the rates are low (our pool pump has a timer), and then in the summer I'll run it during the day for the solar heating, even if rates are higher, I figure I'll be still netting a savings overall.

 

[Googler]

To followup on some of the comments, I already own a Prius, and I regularly get 50mpg on every tank. The primary motivation for getting the Leaf is that it qualifies for the HOV sticker so I can save 200 hours each year from my commute. I was also enthusiastic about buying an electric vehicle because I like the idea that we can eventually lessen our national dependence upon oil. The money is really not much of an issue, though when you sit down to do the math, it really depends on the structure of your electric rate plan. I estimate that I would end up spending at least twice as much to run the Leaf as the Prius.

The combination of PG&E rates, AV's estimate for a dumb charger, and the particulars of my house have made me think that it's simply not worth the hassle. Finding an electrical contractor in this area is not particularly satisfying - I've had two of them screw up work in the past, and they charge an arm and a leg to do shoddy work. The lack of definitive information is definitely not helping - nobody seems capable of giving a definitive answer to the question of whether E9A is required for EV owners. E9A would be horrible for my electric bill. Having done the math on what it would cost me to run the car, I realized that the fuel cost would be about double what the Prius cost me for fuel unless I charge it at work (luckily I can).

Another issue is the poor warranty on the vehicle regarding the gradual degradation of the batteries. If the car has a 70 mile range after five years, it's going to be quite inconvenient - like a three year old cellphone.

The good news is that I went to look at the Honda Civic GX CNG car, and I found it to be quite hassle-free. I canceled my AV installation today, and as soon as I locate the right Honda Civic, I'll be canceling my Leaf order. It's bizarre now that the delivery is so close, but I'm completely disgusted with PG&E+electrical contractors. Even the Honda salesman was more competent.

 

[TomT]

Are there any tax incentives or rebates for CNG vehicles these days?

Also, what is the effective cost of "fuel"?

The good news is that I went to look at the Honda Civic GX CNG car, and I found it to be quite hassle-free. I canceled my AV installation today, and as soon as I locate the right Honda Civic, I'll be canceling my Leaf order. It's bizarre now that the delivery is so close, but I'm completely disgusted with PG&E+electrical contractors. Even the Honda salesman was more competent.

 

[johnr]

Sort of a dumb question, but, have you called PG&E and asked them? I'm curious as well, although I'm not a PG&E customer.

Yeah, it really is a shame that information is not readily forthcoming. Maybe that's a price of being an early adopter though.

As for the Civic GX, congratulations! I think it's a great choice - natural gas is cleaner and cheaper than gasoline, and you can refill at home with the right equipment.

 

[Smidge204]

Are there any tax incentives or rebates for CNG vehicles these days?

Also, what is the effective cost of "fuel"?

I'm not aware of any tax incentives for vehicles, but local rates where I am (New York) is about $1.70 per gasoline-gallon equivalent for natural gas at the gas utility side. So by the time the station owner/operator adds their cut it's probably like $2/gallon equivalent. Your rates will obviously vary.

Strangely enough I'm currently working on our company's first CNG facility. Still missing a lot of parts since the manufacturers dropped the ball and have been shipping us things piecemeal... apparently there's a huge demand for CNG and production of basic parts like valves and pulse meters is way behind. So if you want to know about how CNG works on a commercial scale facility I can probably tell you all about it
=Smidge=

 

[Adrian]

Are there any tax incentives or rebates for CNG vehicles these days?

Also, what is the effective cost of "fuel"?

The good news is that I went to look at the Honda Civic GX CNG car, and I found it to be quite hassle-free. I canceled my AV installation today, and as soon as I locate the right Honda Civic, I'll be canceling my Leaf order. It's bizarre now that the delivery is so close, but I'm completely disgusted with PG&E+electrical contractors. Even the Honda salesman was more competent.

This probably needs to be a different thread.

For all information on cng, I recommend www.cngchat.com . Unfortunately the $4,000 federal tax credit for the Civic GX ended on Dec 31, 2010. In CA, using a home fueling compressor, the cost of fuel (including rebuilding the compressor every 4,000 hrs) ranges between $1 and $1.50 based on fluctuating natural gas prices. Not only are CNG vehicles much cleaner burning that gasoline or diesel, reducing smog forming emissions by over 90% and GHG by about 25%, they are also much cheaper to drive. There is also a fairly robust fueling infrastructure in some states; see www.cngprices.com . My wife and I have been driving dedicated cng vehicles for a bit over 5 years now.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Yeah, this should be moved to another thread... the T Boone Pickens fan club!