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scottf200 said:
To my points lately that the Spark-EV is being thought of in a more global context that just the USA context most are thinking about here.
Let us wait for it to "heat up" before saying "I told you so" ;)

In any case, I do expect them to sell them in S Korea - where it is made.

BTW, why doesn't GM sell them in Japan ? That size EV should do decently in Japan ... esp. if they outfit with CHAdeMO.
 
evnow said:
scottf200 said:
To my points lately that the Spark-EV is being thought of in a more global context that just the USA context most are thinking about here.
Let us wait for it to "heat up" before saying "I told you so" ;)

In any case, I do expect them to sell them in S Korea - where it is made.

BTW, why doesn't GM sell them in Japan ? That size EV should do decently in Japan ... esp. if they outfit with CHAdeMO.

I will absolutely laugh my butt off if the South Korea Spark EV is CHAdeMO equipped. It sure as heck won't be Frankenplug!!!

Or, they offer nothing but 3.3kW AC like Honda does for the compliance Fit EV; CHAdeMO in Japan and just "don't get too popular" AC charging here.
 
scottf200 said:
Aren't these smaller commuter cars so they typically they just need to charge overnight? L2 charging does that.
No. These are cars you want to take around the city and nearby places. So QC is very useful - esp. if there is a lot of infrastructure (like one every 15 miles) around. It gives you peace of mind (just like a hardly used ICE in Volt does).
 
TonyWilliams said:
The bad news for Frankenplug proponents like yourself is this, and it's growing EVERY day.
You sound like a Betamax salesperson. :lol: These are inconsequential numbers. I'm not a proponent of COMBO2 per se, I'm just being realistic. Ultimately chargers will support the standard that the manufacturers use, and manufacturers with global ambitions will use COMBO2 because it gives them a big price advantage when supporting DC superfast charging in NA, Europe, and China. On the charging equipment side, with the cost of supporting Chademo and CCS at 5% of the charger cost, all chargers going forward will support COMBO2. Not only will supporting COMBO2 allow you to support Tesla, GM and BMW, it's also the best, in fact the only, path for making one product you can sell in NA, Europe, and China. So if you want to make chargers and you have global ambitions you'll support COMBO2.

Basically COMBO2 will cut costs significantly on the car and the charger side, making it better at facilitating EV deployment than Chademo. Since I'm an EV proponent I guess that makes me a COMBO2 proponent. I have no idea why you think Chademo is better. That brings up an interesting point. You've certainly ranted about COMBO2, but I've never seen you explain why you think Chademo is better. Why do you think it's better to use a significantly more expensive DC charging system than will never be a worldwide standard?

BTW, you are not going to see an "adapter" that allows a Tesla to use a Chademo charger. Tesla and J1772-DC are based on the same standard. Easy enough to use an adapter to for a car that supports one to use the charger for the other. It's like a 240v appliance using different plugs in different countries. It's just an adapter. Chademo uses a completely different standard. Now you're trying to run a 120v appliance from a 240v outlet. No longer can you simply use an "adapter". You'd have to have a very expensive piece of electronics to allow a vehicle with a Chademo connector to use a Tesla or J1772-DC charger and, vice versa, you'd need a very expensive piece of electronics to allow a Tesla or a Spark EV to use a Chademo charger. Since the cost of making one "adapter" for one Tesla costs the same as making one "adapter" for a charger that would support all Teslas and all Sparks and all i3s, it's fairly clear that chargers will support COMBO2 before Teslas support Chademo chargers.
 
SanDust said:
BTW, you are not going to see an "adapter" that allows a Tesla to use a Chademo charger. Tesla and J1772-DC are based on the same standard. Easy enough to use an adapter to for a car that supports one to use the charger for the other. It's like a 240v appliance using different plugs in different countries. It's just an adapter. Chademo uses a completely different standard. Now you're trying to run a 120v appliance from a 240v outlet. No longer can you simply use an "adapter". You'd have to have a very expensive piece of electronics to allow a vehicle with a Chademo connector to use a Tesla or J1772-DC charger and, vice versa, you'd need a very expensive piece of electronics to allow a Tesla or a Spark EV to use a Chademo charger. Since the cost of making one "adapter" for one Tesla costs the same as making one "adapter" for a charger that would support all Teslas and all Sparks and all i3s, it's fairly clear that chargers will support COMBO2 before Teslas support Chademo chargers.
Seems like this discussion go in a different thread? There will be an adapter for Tesla and chademo. See Tesla thread and article: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/14207-Tesla-CHAdeMo-Update" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tesla Motors said that the version of its new Model S released in Japan will include an adapter that makes it compatible with the CHAdeMO charging system. Tesla, which uses its own proprietary “Supercharger” technology for fast direct-current (DC) charging, has also produced an adapter to go with the SAE’s enhanced J1772 specification. Tesla thus becomes the latest automaker to attempt to straddle the divide between charging protocols in this fast-evolving sector.
 
SanDust said:
TonyWilliams said:
The bad news for Frankenplug proponents like yourself is this, and it's growing EVERY day.
You sound like a Betamax salesperson. :lol: These are inconsequential numbers. I'm not a proponent of COMBO2 per se, ... I've never seen you explain why you think Chademo is better. Why do you think it's better to use a significantly more expensive DC charging system than will never be a worldwide standard?.

I don't think CHAdeMO is "better". Between the two, the current world standard CHAdeMO and the proposed Frankenplug (that will only be used in the USA) are power compatible at 100kW design max each. The control logic is different; CAN bus or PLC. That's it. The rest is easily replaced hardware, like the clunky plug used on too many CHAdeMO chargers.

My primary issue is simple. CHAdeMO has the cars, the installed chargers, and the momentum. Frankenplug doesn't offer a SINGLE advantage to the end user over CHAdeMO. Your often repeated "all the other guys" will overtake CHAdeMO just isn't born out by the projections, but hey, you believe whatever you want.

Frankenplug will, and is, confusing the market, the governments who funds these things. Those arent my thoughts; that's others (besides the GM shill machine and proponents).


BTW, you are not going to see an "adapter" that allows a Tesla to use a Chademo charger. Tesla and ... it's fairly clear that chargers will support COMBO2 before Teslas support Chademo chargers.


Obviously to all the readers, you're wrong.
 
TonyWilliams said:
evnow said:
scottf200 said:
To my points lately that the Spark-EV is being thought of in a more global context that just the USA context most are thinking about here.
Let us wait for it to "heat up" before saying "I told you so" ;)

In any case, I do expect them to sell them in S Korea - where it is made.

BTW, why doesn't GM sell them in Japan ? That size EV should do decently in Japan ... esp. if they outfit with CHAdeMO.

I will absolutely laugh my butt off if the South Korea Spark EV is CHAdeMO equipped. It sure as heck won't be Frankenplug!!!

Or, they offer nothing but 3.3kW AC like Honda does for the compliance Fit EV; CHAdeMO in Japan and just "don't get too popular" AC charging here.

The Fit EV has no DC fast charge, but its J1772 is 6.6kW.
 
For what it's worth, Honda is testing a Fit EV with CHAdeMO as part of an effort to work with Toyota, Mitsubishi, and Nissan in Japan, so who knows ;)
 
lion said:
For what it's worth, Honda is testing a Fit EV with CHAdeMO as part of an effort to work with Toyota, Mitsubishi, and Nissan in Japan, so who knows ;)

The Fit EV already is sold in Japan with CHAdeMO. Not new.

But, they don't include it here (CARB states*) where they are required to sell cars. They don't want the car to get too popular, or there might be demand to sell even more than the minimum.

The Chevy Spark EV is sold in South Korea, and I just hope it has a CHAdeMO, because it would be a waste of time to have a Frankenplug. If so, I can quickly see demand here for a CHAdeMO car that GM will be reluctant to offer here, but just wait to see what I do with that kind of info.

*States adopting the CARB include Arizona (2012 model year), Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia.
 
If I were a betting man, for Korea I'ld expect
Kia RAY EV to be Chademo
Renault Samsung to be Chameleon http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://blog.renaultsamsungm.com/399" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GM Spark EV wild guess possibly Euro spec CCS, no clarity on that.

so 3 models, 3 different charging standards, Chameleon wins

there is also a fourth possibility, the earlier Korea specific solution....
 
The problem with GM's strategy of using an old ICEV platform to introduce it's "new" BEV conversion.

With the Spark's replacement now only ~18 months in the future, I wonder how many potential Spark EV buyers may want to wait for more details on the Spark gen 2 ...assuming there is one.

Reuters) - General Motors Co (GM.N) plans to launch its next-generation Chevrolet Spark mini car in the first half of 2015...

A GM Korea spokesman declined to comment, saying the company did not disclose its future product plans.

South Korea manufactures and exports the Spark and Aveo (Sonic) cars to the United States, Europe and other countries, and makes knock-down kits for assembly in Uzbekistan and others, the spokesman said.

The Spark, which was introduced in 2009, has been manufactured at GM Korea's plant in the southeastern city of Changwon, and the Aveo, which was rolled out in 2011, is made at its headquarters in Bupyeong, outside of Seoul.

GM Korea said it sold 215,177 Spark cars at home and abroad last year, and exports accounted for nearly 70 percent of the Spark sales.

GM Korea, which was created after the automaker bought failed South Korean automaker Daewoo Motor in 2002...

Meanwhile, GM has postponed the launch of the next-generation Chevrolet Cruze by a year due to engineering changes and a desire to squeeze more sales from the small car before it is redesigned, people familiar with the U.S. automaker's plans said.

The next version of the Cruze, which had originally been scheduled to debut in late 2014, will now begin production in December 2015, said the sources, most of whom asked not to be identified in discussing GM's plans.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/us-gm-spark-idUSBRE96T04B20130730" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
edatoakrun said:
The problem with GM's strategy of using an old ICEV platform to introduce it's "new" BEV conversion.

With the Spark's replacement now only ~18 months in the future, I wonder how many potential Spark EV buyers may want to wait for more details on the Spark gen 2 ...assuming there is one.

Nearly all BEV conversions are based on a platform late in its lifecycle. The Fit, Spark, 500e and RAV4 all are nearing the end of the lifecycle of their current platforms. If there is a Spark EV2, it probably won't be out until the 2015 Spark is at least 2-3 years old.
 
fengshui said:
edatoakrun said:
The problem with GM's strategy of using an old ICEV platform to introduce it's "new" BEV conversion.

With the Spark's replacement now only ~18 months in the future, I wonder how many potential Spark EV buyers may want to wait for more details on the Spark gen 2 ...assuming there is one.

Nearly all BEV conversions are based on a platform late in its lifecycle. The Fit, Spark, 500e and RAV4 all are nearing the end of the lifecycle of their current platforms. If there is a Spark EV2, it probably won't be out until the 2015 Spark is at least 2-3 years old.

So, you speculate that when the buyer goes into the Chevy dealership, they will have to choose between the current ICEV Spark, or the last generation BEV spark, for "at least 2-3 years"?

Toyota can't even seem to be able to sell Rav4 BEVs in compliance numbers using that strategy...
 
edatoakrun said:
So, you speculate that when the buyer goes into the Chevy dealership, they will have to choose between the current ICEV Spark, or the last generation BEV spark, for "at least 2-3 years"?

Toyota can't even seem to be able to sell Rav4 BEVs in compliance numbers using that strategy...

Yeah, probably. I haven't seen any signs that any of the above cars are anything but compliance cars in the US. Who knows if Chevy will even sell the Spark EV for the 2015-2017 CARB cycle. They could roll out a completely different ZEV.
 
fengshui said:
Who knows if Chevy will even sell the Spark EV for the 2015-2017 CARB cycle. They could roll out a completely different ZEV.

All their biggest friends are going hydrogen for ZEV. Potentially required to produce FAR less cars!!
 
fengshui said:
... Who knows if Chevy will even sell the Spark EV for the 2015-2017 CARB cycle. They could roll out a completely different ZEV.

I doubt it, not by 2015 anyway.

I think we would have heard about another 2015 GM BEV long ago.

And GM has put far too many resources into the Volt to admit failure...yet.

I think GM is going to have to learn it's lesson the hard way (from many years of losing huge amounts of money on disappointing sales) that the Volt PHEV model of strapping a (relatively high kWh) battery and EV drivetrain to an existing ICEV platform to manufacture an "EREV" is just not a viable design strategy.
 
GCR reports 103 Spark EVs sold in July. I went by the closest Chevy dealer on Sunday to look at one but they didn't have any yet, although there were at least 11 Volts on the lot. I was mainly interested in the Spark's interior space, so checked out a gas version instead. With the driver's seat all the way back, my 6'0" tall (but 34" inseam) body had enough leg room, just. The back seat directly behind me wasn't an option, though - my knees were in solid contact with the front seat back. Figure there would only be room for pre-teens or smallish teens in back if you need lots of leg room in front.

Plenty of head room front and rear, but the rear headrests hit me in the middle of my shoulder blades when unextended. The rear seats will supposedly fold flat, with the seat bench first pulled up in front to release it, then forward before rotating it nose down so it lies against the back of the rear seat. However, this apparently requires the front seats to be forward of their rearmost position. I couldn't get the rear seat backs to fold flat, despite extending the headrests as recommended on the SPARK EV forum - it may be that the batteries change the geometry somewhat compared to the gas car. I couldn't figure out how to remove the rear headrests entirely, but presume it could be done. Space behind the rear seats with them up was small, seemingly suitable for a single transverse line of paper grocery bags standing upright and not much else. But this is supposed to be a city car, so no big deal. I didn't bother to drive it, and will wait for an EV.
 
Drove a Spark EV 2LT yesterday, on about a 20 minute test drive. I'd wanted to look at a 1LT because I prefer cloth seats, but they'd already sold the only one they had. Interior very similar to the gas model, although the dash display was far better. I've not been a fan of digital dashes to date, but I could easily live with this one, so give Chevy a thumbs up. Excellent GOM/SoC gauge, displaying current range prediction with max. and min. ranges as well; very intuitive. Also instantaneous digital power readout in kW. Compass heading at top for the limited number of occasions you might need this, and there's supposed to be OAT displayed somewhere, but I didn't have time to find it.
Outside mirrors seemed a bit small to me; I'm sure this is for max. range, but I'd prefer something larger.

Rear seats are a bit different from the gas version; the bench is one piece and apparently fixed in place, instead of split and able to fold. The rear backrests don't fold completely flat, but close enough, and I figured out how to remove the headrests. Rear seat legroom, or rather the lack of it with the front seats all the way back, appeared unchanged from the gas model. And unlike my Forester or the LEAF, I'd definitely not be able to sleep in the back of this. It's just too short (Fit is the same, and the 500e isn't even in the running).
Apparently Chevy is calling the CCS QC 'Hypercharging', and the salesman was trying to tell me that the 2LT was equipped with it, but the 1LT wasn't (he later sent me an email saying that I was correct: neither comes with it standard, but both will offer it as an option). He even opened the port to show me. Surprisingly, the two CCS receptacles were there, but both were blocked off by a fixed (not hinged, as would be the case if they were operational) cover plate. I pointed this out to the salesman. I don't know if the plastic receptacles contained the pins or if they were wired, but it does suggest that it might be possible to backfit the option, contradicting previous opinion. I'd never seen the J1772/CCS port in the flesh before, but I've got to say that it takes up even less real estate than I'd thought, and makes apparent just how much space is wasted by CHAdeMO's need for a separate plug.

I have zero interest in Bluetooth, On Star etc. capability so will leave it to someone with more knowledge of such features to comment, and my high-frequency hearing is so non-existent now that I can't comment on the audio quality or the presence or absence of whine from the drivetrain. I did like the HVAC controls, although it seemed like the temp control at least has no hard lower or upper stop - it just kept rotating. I didn't spend much time on that on the test drive, so more info is needed.

It's been almost two years since I test drove a LEAF so I can't directly compare performance, but FWIW the Spark didn't seem to experience the falloff in accel above about 40 mph that I remember from the LEAF. 45-65 or 50-70 passing should be easy. I went back and forth between normal and Sport modes, but on the freeway in medium traffic really didn't have the opportunity to notice much difference. I can say that it's quite fast, although it has been a while since I drove anything quicker than my Forester which is about 2 seconds slower 0-60. Nailing the throttle I did feel like there was some torque steer, although the two times I did it I was on a bit of a curve. It's possible that what I felt was torque steer was actually my overcorrecting the steering, which has a considerably faster ratio than I'm used to. Assist seemed to be at a good level, not overboosted at speed. Like most electric assists, feel and feedback were about what you'd expect, i.e. minimal, but I didn't find it objectionable given how the car is likely to be driven.

I did get onto a slightly windy two-lane road, but with the salesman in the car couldn't really open it out and explore the handling limits. It seemed to be decent as far as I went. I didn't notice anything mentionable about the ride. I did try 'L' mode, and would say that, on a fairly flat road at moderate speeds, the decel seemed slightly higher than would be the case if I were making a 5-4 downshift while getting ready to exit the freeway without drama. In other words, while there's a noticeable difference, the rate of decel isn't all that high, far less than would be the case with a 5-3 downshift. I don't know enough about how the Spark's 'L' mode is implemented to know if there's more significant decel descending a steep hill, and there weren't any such hills nearby where I could try it.

I did a bit of single pedal driving in 'L' on city streets, and although I can see the advantage ISTM that I'd want stronger decel there as well. But my time in the car was quite short, ca. 20 minutes total, so this is all preliminary impression of someone who has no experience of single pedal driving (but normally drives a stick, so is used to using engine compression braking).

All in all, I was fairly impressed by the Spark EV. In many ways it reminds me of an early Honda Civic, i.e. it's a nice subcompact that you can throw around. I think they'll sell quite well, especially in areas with high or low temperatures where a car without an active liquid-cooled and heated TMS falls short on range. It's certainly more fun to throw around than a LEAF, but I can't speak for how it stacks up against a Fit or 500e.
 
GRA said:
Drove a Spark EV 2LT yesterday, on about a 20 minute test drive. I'd wanted to look at a 1LT because I prefer cloth seats, but they'd already sold the only one they had. Interior very similar to the gas model, although the dash display was far better. I've not been a fan of digital dashes to date, but I could easily live with this one, so give Chevy a thumbs up. Excellent GOM/SoC gauge, displaying current range prediction with max. and min. ranges as well; very intuitive. Also instantaneous digital power readout in kW. Compass heading at top for the limited number of occasions you might need this, and there's supposed to be OAT displayed somewhere, but I didn't have time to find it.

Outside mirrors seemed a bit small to me; I'm sure this is for max. range, but I'd prefer something larger.

Rear seats are a bit different from the gas version; the bench is one piece and apparently fixed in place, instead of split and able to fold. The rear backrests don't fold completely flat, but close enough, and I figured out how to remove the headrests. Rear seat legroom, or rather the lack of it with the front seats all the way back, appeared unchanged from the gas model. And unlike my Forester or the LEAF, I'd definitely not be able to sleep in the back of this. It's just too short (Fit is the same, and the 500e isn't even in the running).

Apparently Chevy is calling the CCS QC 'Hypercharging', and the salesman was trying to tell me that the 2LT was equipped with it, but the 1LT wasn't (he later sent me an email saying that I was correct: neither comes with it standard, but both will offer it as an option). He even opened the port to show me. Surprisingly, the two CCS receptacles were there, but both were blocked off by a fixed (not hinged, as would be the case if they were operational) cover plate. I pointed this out to the salesman. I don't know if the plastic receptacles contained the pins or if they were wired, but it does suggest that it might be possible to backfit the option, contradicting previous opinion. I'd never seen the J1772/CCS port in the flesh before, but I've got to say that it takes up even less real estate than I'd thought, and makes apparent just how much space is wasted by CHAdeMO's need for a separate plug.

I have zero interest in Bluetooth, On Star etc. capability so will leave it to someone with more knowledge of such features to comment, and my high-frequency hearing is so non-existent now that I can't comment on the audio quality or the presence or absence of whine from the drivetrain. I did like the HVAC controls, although it seemed like the temp control at least has no hard lower or upper stop - it just kept rotating. I didn't spend much time on that on the test drive, so more info is needed.

It's been almost two years since I test drove a LEAF so I can't directly compare performance, but FWIW the Spark didn't seem to experience the falloff in accel above about 40 mph that I remember from the LEAF. 45-65 or 50-70 passing should be easy. I went back and forth between normal and Sport modes, but on the freeway in medium traffic really didn't have the opportunity to notice much difference. I can say that it's quite fast, although it's been a while since I drove anything quicker than my Forester which is about 2 seconds slower 0-60. Nailing the throttle I did feel like there was some torque steer, although the two times I did it I was on a bit of a curve. It's possible that what I felt was torque steer was actually my overcorrecting the steering, which has a considerably faster ratio than I'm used to. Assist seemed to be at a good level, not overboosted at speed. Like most electric assists, feel was about what you'd expect and feedback is pretty minimal, but I didn't find it objectionable given how the car is likely to be driven.

I did get onto a slightly windy two-lane road, but with the salesmen in the car couldn't really open it out and explore the handling limits. It seemed to be decent as far as I went. I didn't notice anything mentionable about the ride. I did try 'L' mode, and would say that, on a fairly flat road at moderate speeds, the decel seemed slightly higher than would be the case if I were making a 5-4 downshift while getting ready to exit the freeway without drama. In other words, while there's a noticeable difference, the rate of decel isn't all that high, far less than would be the case with a 5-3 downshift. I don't know enough about how the Spark's 'L' mode is implemented to know if there's more significant decel descending a steep hill, and there weren't any such hills nearby where I could try it.

I did a bit of single pedal driving in 'L' on city streets, and although I can see the advantage ISTM that I'd want stronger decel there as well. But my time in the car was quite short, ca. 20 minutes total, so this is all preliminary impression of someone who has no experience of single pedal driving (but normally drives a stick, so is used to using engine compression braking).

All in all, I was fairly impressed by the Spark EV. In many ways it reminds me of an early Honda Civic, i.e. it's a nice subcompact that you can throw around. I think they'll sell quite well, especially in areas with high or low temperatures where a car without an active liquid-cooled and heated TMS falls short on range. It's certainly more fun to throw around than a LEAF, but I can't speak for how it stacks up against a Fit or 500e.
Nice report GRA; thanks. :)
 
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