Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[smkettner]

Looks like just four seats to me.

 

[edatoakrun]

...The all-electric Bolt boasts a groundbreaking combination of low price and long driving range. It will sell in the low $30,000s, after government incentives, and travel up to 200 miles on a battery charge, Mark Reuss, GM's executive vice president for global product development, said in an interview with The Times.

"The Bolt breaks the barrier on range anxiety," Reuss said...

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-0113-chevrolet-volt-bolt-20150112-story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMO, GM really stunted the outlook for the Volt gen 2 by introducing the Bolt today.

Isn't "range anxiety" exactly what GM has been promoting for the last ~5 years, in order to sell its Volt PHEV?

How is GM expecting to be able to sell 2017 Volts, with only ~50 mile Electric range, at ~the same price as ~200 mile range 2017 Bolt BEVs?

My hope is that Nissan will introduce a gen 2 LEAF with ~24-36 (available) kWh and ~100-150 EPA) range, and sells it for ~$10k less than either of the GM offerings.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

How is GM expecting to be able to sell 2017 Volts, with only ~50 mile Electric range, at ~the same price as ~200 mile range 2017 Bolt BEVs?

The Volt will sell better than the Bolt in any market which lacks QC infrastructure. And today that's most of them.

Plus, many people don't want to wait for 45 minutes every 160 miles, even if there was a charger there. It's much more convenient taking 5 minutes to gas up every 350 miles. And the Volt can still do most commutes as 100% electric.

I'm pretty sure that there will be plenty of market for both of them.

 

[edatoakrun]

How is GM expecting to be able to sell 2017 Volts, with only ~50 mile Electric range, at ~the same price as ~200 mile range 2017 Bolt BEVs?

The Volt will sell better than the Bolt in any market which lacks QC infrastructure. And today that's most of them...

And By 2017, what US markets do you expect will not have some DC infrastructure?

Anyway, assuming GM plans to build the Bolt in large numbers, I believe it has the market almost half-right.

I just don't think many BEV buyers who do have access to DC chargers will want to haul around an extra ~500 pounds and ~ $5,000 worth of (constantly depreciating and degrading) batteries every day, just so they can drive slightly longer before refueling, on the few days a year they drive more than 100-150 miles.

 

[EVDRIVER]

If it's out end of 2017, then it's not even worth discussing at this point. That is a lifetime away in EV terms. Leaf 2.0 will be out by then, along with, most likely, the model III and probably at least a few more long-range EVs from other manufacturers (Kia or Hyundia, I'm thinking).

2 years is fast in EV years and likely before any LEAF would have that kind of range. Also, GM seems to get that 0-10 seconds is not acceptable for an EV. If Nissan releases a long range slow EV it's going to suffer with many buyers. I have never bought a single GM product but I would consider an EV if they pull off the right stuff.

 

[Moof]

I just don't think many BEV buyers who do have access to DC chargers will want to haul around an extra ~500 pounds and ~ $5,000 worth of (constantly depreciating and degrading) batteries every day, just so they can drive slightly longer before refueling, on the few days a year they drive more than 100-150 miles.

Can't disagree more. Once you factor in cold weather and some battery aging, an 80 mile range drops to 50-60'ish. Throw in the current chaotic and fractured charging networks and many folks really would be happy to pay another 10-20% for 50-100% more range. 80 miles is a economical sweet spot, but a psychological loser.

Long term I see DC fast chargers being helpful for long trips in the fashion of the Tesla charging stations, but useless in-town. A 100 mile minimum range (all weathers, and after 10 years of battery aging) cuts out the need for almost any Level 2 and lets you charge exclusively at home with no side trips to find juice. Level 2 makes sense for home, highway motels, and work, and very little elsewhere. Mass market appeal will necessitate minimal life style changes to get heavy EV adoption. The current 80 mile range is just not enough for folks to use it as their only car unless they want a bit more adventure.

You can make economic arguments, but just look at the number of single passenger SUV's and light trucks out there, economics wither compared to aspirational buying.

 

[nedfunnell]

I wonder if it will have an (optional?) high-power charger. A 40kwh (guessing) car would take about seven hours to fill up with a 6.6kW charger, which takes ~30A input. I wonder if a 10kW charger would be available, as I think it'd significantly improve the utility of the car. That might make all the folks with 30A EVSEs at home sad, though. No difference in overnight charging, though.

 

[smkettner]

I wonder if it will have an (optional?) high-power charger. A 40kwh (guessing) car would take about seven hours to fill up with a 6.6kW charger, which takes ~30A input. I wonder if a 10kW charger would be available, as I think it'd significantly improve the utility of the car. That might make all the folks with 30A EVSEs at home sad, though. No difference in overnight charging, though.

I have 10kW OBC and 30 amp EVSE at home and quite happy with the set up. In the wild it is hard to find more than 30 amps so the 10kW has never been used at full throttle.

 

[edatoakrun]

I just don't think many BEV buyers who do have access to DC chargers will want to haul around an extra ~500 pounds and ~ $5,000 worth of (constantly depreciating and degrading) batteries every day, just so they can drive slightly longer before refueling, on the few days a year they drive more than 100-150 miles.

Can't disagree more... many folks really would be happy to pay another 10-20% for 50-100% more range...

But a cost increase of "...10-20% for 50-100% more range" is not a realistic possibility, IMO.

Doubling the available battery capacity from ~25 to ~50 kWh (which is ~ the minimum required for 200 mile EPA range) does not double the range, since efficiency declines with not only the increased weight of the battery, but due to the larger structural components and the larger tire contact area required by a heavier vehicle.

And I think a fair estimate is that larger battery packs (including the associated Vehicle upgrades required to support them) probably will add ~$300 per kWh by 2017, or roughly $7,500 to the cost of a ~25 kWh ~120 mile EPA range ~$25,000 (post-tax credit) BEV, to get a ~$32,500 (post-tax credit) ~200 mile range ~50 kWh BEV.

Any additional State and local incentives would increase the cost differential above 30%, of course.

So, the question is, will BEV buyers want to increase their initial costs ~30% or more (and the TCO considerably more than that) for that range increase.

Once DC charge stations are anywhere near as ubiquitous as Gas stations, I doubt it.

="Moof"
...You can make economic arguments, but just look at the number of single passenger SUV's and light trucks out there, economics wither compared to aspirational buying.

I have been thinking the same thing, maybe BEV makers will succeed in convincing BEV buyers they need more range than they actually do, just as they have managed to convince so many folks they need three ton SUVs, to pick up groceries.

Why Wouldn't every BEV manufacturer want to convince every buyer they want a ~ $40k 200 mile range 50 kWh battery (or even larger!) BEV, rather than the more efficient and less expensive BEV with the lower kWh battery pack, that most people actually need?

 

[TomT]

+1!

Can't disagree more. Once you factor in cold weather and some battery aging, an 80 mile range drops to 50-60'ish. Throw in the current chaotic and fractured charging networks and many folks really would be happy to pay another 10-20% for 50-100% more range. 80 miles is a economical sweet spot, but a psychological loser.

 

[Turnover]

My take is that a concept car is a physical likeness of an idea. The Bolt certainly looks good, but how did it get to from one spot to another on stage? Did they use a new motor and battery or something that would work only for the stage presentation - It really doesn't matter if it is a concept car.

Personally, I feel like mentally blurring the lines between this car and a real car but I guess that is the point of GM's auto show presentation. :roll:

 

[redLEAF]

Couldn't resist ... in Russian no less (for those who may have forgotten, 'Bolt' was also an animated movie made in 2008

 

[Moof]

Doubling the available battery capacity from ~25 to ~50 kWh (which is ~ the minimum required for 200 mile EPA range) does not double the range, since efficiency declines with not only the increased weight of the battery, but due to the larger structural components and the larger tire contact area required by a heavier vehicle.

There is a lot of rumbling that batteries are not just getting doubled up, but that the batteries are getting both cheaper per kWh and more energy dense. If we read the crystal ball for the next few years out, the question might be to either double the capacity for the same weight, or lower the weight/price for the same range we have now. The Roadster 3.0 announcement is a decent example of what happens when you drop today's battery tech into yesterday's EV.

Why Wouldn't every BEV manufacturer want to convince every buyer they want a ~ $40k 200 mile range 50 kWh battery (or even larger!) BEV, rather than the more efficient and less expensive BEV with the lower kWh battery pack, that most people actually need?

Car companies have managed to convince millions of people in fair weather cities that they need SUV's to get through the rugged city terrain to soccer practice. If people bought only what they needed we would have about 1% SUV's and maybe 2% light trucks being sold each year, and nobody would buy a muscle car (or a Tesla for that matter). Heck, most folks trade up to a newer better car years before their old one is really is past its utility or economical optimum. Aspirational buying is a huge force that is very prevalent in the car market, to ignore it is to ignore reality.

So yes, the optimum economic and utilitarian option for most families is probably to either buy a hybrid or a low range BEV and use a rental for big trips, but that is not how 'mericans buy cars. You can't even buy less than about 100 horsepower in an ICE anymore, and i expect we will soon look back at the current crop of <100 mile EV's as quaint pioneering times.

 

[evnow]

I've to say this is a strange introduction.

The car is 2 years away. You can' reserve it. You don't have to drum up sales for such a car (with the limited numbers GM will probably produce in the beginning, anyway).

So, why introduce it now ?

Esp., given that Volt 2 has been revealed now and will be on sale this year. Surely Bolt takes some oxygen from Volt 2.

Except as a personal ego booster for some execs at GM, this intro makes zero sense.

I expect Leaf 2 to be introduced just months before you can buy it at a dealer, in contrast. Infact Leaf 2 may come out earlier than this Bolt.

 

[garsh]

I've to say this is a strange introduction.

The car is 2 years away. You can' reserve it. You don't have to drum up sales for such a car (with the limited numbers GM will probably produce in the beginning, anyway).

So, why introduce it now ?

It's a concept car. They build it to gauge the public's reaction and decide if it's a direction that they want to go with new models.
Remember when the volt was a concept car?

 

[Stoaty]

My take is that a concept car is a physical likeness of an idea.

Exactly. If/when it goes into production, at what price, and with how much EPA range I will say it is a real car. Talk is cheap. We know Tesla has to produce the model 3 (eventually) to make full use of the giga factory, but GM doesn't have to produce the Bolt, and they might be late or change their mind for some reason.

 

[evnow]

It's a concept car. They build it to gauge the public's reaction and decide if it's a direction that they want to go with new models.
Remember when the volt was a concept car?

This is very different from Volt 1.0.

Leaf has already proved there is a market for BEV.

Compared to the risk of osborning Volt 2, what they can get from this reveal is very minimal.

 

[garsh]

Compared to the risk of osborning Volt 2, what they can get from this reveal is very minimal.

Chevy disagrees with you.

I don't think the Bolt will steal that many Volt customers. The gasoline backup really appeals to a lot of people.
The Leaf doesn't say much about how much people would like a 200mi EV.
The Model S doesn't say much about how much people would like one that costs 30k.
They're gauging interest. We'll see where it goes.

 

[Moof]

It's a concept car. They build it to gauge the public's reaction and decide if it's a direction that they want to go with new models.
Remember when the volt was a concept car?

I think the roll out of the Volt was a fiasco. They got a ton of buzz for the concept car, then over hyped it to the media at every turn as it went through development. Years before you could buy one they were getting reporters to take test drives in the mules and missing no opportunity to get it into the news.

Then it was released, with a thud. The buzz and "new shiny!" response from the public was gone. The car was a fairly pedestrian looking sedan, especially when compared to the concept car, and despite being a very nice piece of tech and by most accounts a good car, it was guaranteed to fall short of the onslaught of hype from GM. Sales gradually picked up, but I honestly think GM marketing department was the Volt's biggest Achilles's heal.

So I fully am not surprised that GM is doing the same thing all over again with the Bolt. It may turn out to be a fantastic EV that tanks hard compared to what it should.

My only positive thought is that they are looking to discourage people from picking up an 80 mile BEV or hybrid in the next couple years to build up some demand by folks who might now hold off a year or two if they are pretty sure something is coming that is much better. Who knows.

 

[smkettner]

Remember when Volt was to be an electric vehicle?
How about the range extender that just charged the battery?

Yes lots can change before a concept rolls out to the public.