Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

[wwhitney]

most don't much care about pollution unless it negatively affects them in an obvious and serious way.

I would suggest that's a clear error in judgement; of course what social policy to implement to address that is unclear.

While my usage and motivations are atypical, my requirements are more representative of mainstream buyers than the small self-selected % of the population (over-represented here) who've decided that current BEVs meet their requirements.

My impression is otherwise, that your requirements are at least as many standard deviations on the one side of the norm as the typical current BEV driver's requirements are on the other side.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[WetEV]

How is noting that all the cars the Ariya will be competing with come with 48A chargers, FUD? It's a fact.

As is the fact that a Model T had a one barrel carburetor. A horse owner focusing on this irrelevant "flaw" is FUD.

Unless it's a feature that causes one buyer to choose car A over car B, and that's not irrelevant at all.

Then it matters to that buyer. Yet it is very clear that this isn't a key requirement for most, as many buyers of EVSEs pick the 40A over the 48A units.

Actually, there are several things a fuel cell does better than a BEV

Like what exactly?

I gave you a list - if you can't be bothered to read it or choose to ignore it, that's on you.

So, how's that trip to Glacier or Great Basin or Monument Valley in your e-Tron coming?

Glacier is easy with destination charging. (There is a J1772 as well as a Tesla) How would it work with a fool cell? Oh, that's right, take a rental ICE... If you can get one. Try to rent a car recently? Don't need the Taco Bell sites as well.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=feaf1ffd-f5bc-4382-ab12-887c6581d405


Great Basin National Park with destination charging looks more than ok. Smooth and quiet in the BEV, not noisy stinky rattling ICE.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=6ef8ac22-303e-477a-8b79-db2050ff73f2


Monument Valley is easy with a BEV. Fool cell can't make it.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=fddcdc53-1a45-4405-b445-0abb9e33cd1a


The BEV uses less of your time 50 weeks out of the year, and can get to more places than a fool cell the other two weeks. (Adjust based on vacation time used for trips.)

 

[GRA]

most don't much care about pollution unless it negatively affects them in an obvious and serious way.

I would suggest that's a clear error in judgement; of course what social policy to implement to address that is unclear.

No argument from me, but as with vaccination resistance, until the need's critical you can't get most people to pay attention or take any action.

While my usage and motivations are atypical, my requirements are more representative of mainstream buyers than the small self-selected % of the population (over-represented here) who've decided that current BEVs meet their requirements.

My impression is otherwise, that your requirements are at least as many standard deviations on the one side of the norm as the typical current BEV driver's requirements are on the other side.

Cheers, Wayne

I disagree. Every survey of consumers asking what their main issues are with BEVs has the same three (occasionally four) items heading the list, with the precise order swapping around a bit. They are price, range, charging infrastructure and (sometimes) charging speed. My main issues are the same, although I'd add longevity (guaranteed range over the long haul). I have a lot more knowledge about BEVs than mainstream buyers, because I've been following them for a long time, have knowledge of deep-cycle batteries and their foibles, and I've driven at least 9 different BEV model over the years, and tried out two on typical trips for extended periods of time. My concerns are based on experience in how well they and their infrastructure meet my requirements.

So, while my usage is several standard deviations out, my basic requirements are as mainstream as they get. It's true that far more mainstream users could use a BEV now (for commuting, local and some weekend driving) than are willing to do so, whereas for my usage BEVs along with their current limited off-interstate charging infrastructure are simply inadequate replacements for now for a car with an ICE, barring spending ridiculous amounts of money on something like a Lucid. And even one of those won't allow me freedom of choice as to destinations and routes, along with having slower travel times when multiple charges are needed.

It was only this year that two DCFC sites finally opened on my most common weekend route to/through Yosemite and the High Sierra, despite I and others nagging charging companies for the past decade about the need. We still need at least one and preferably several more along 395 to make travel to/from and along it practical, and that will also require boosting reliability to acceptable levels, something that has been noticeably lacking to date.

As an aside, I had hoped to rent another BEV for the trip I'm taking up there later this month, but with the current lack of new and used cars for sale, rental prices on Turo have shot up. I rented a brand-new 2020 Bolt last October for $40-some dollars a day; closest I can find now is a Kona for $95, and that's not worth it. I'd hoped that there might be an Ionic 5 available there by now, but they got delayed.

Outside of California in the places I'd want to go the off-interstate infrastructure situation's mostly worse, Colorado being a notable exception, and Utah's finally making some progress although there remain big gaps.

 

[wwhitney]

So, while my usage is several standard deviations out, my basic requirements are as mainstream as they get.

Sounds like your requirements are all on mainstream parameters, but of magnitudes that are several standard deviations out.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[GRA]

As is the fact that a Model T had a one barrel carburetor. A horse owner focusing on this irrelevant "flaw" is FUD.

Unless it's a feature that causes one buyer to choose car A over car B, and that's not irrelevant at all.

Then it matters to that buyer. Yet it is very clear that this isn't a key requirement for most, as many buyers of EVSEs pick the 40A over the 48A units.

I'd probably make the same pick right now, given that a 40A w/plug would buy me some options on a trip. Provide lots of DCFCs and I would opt for the hard-wired 48A, AOTBE. But assuming the price difference is as small as I expect it would be, I'd still opt for a 48A OBC over a 40A, to give me more flexibility and convenience. Everyone will make that judgement for themselves, so we can see how sales go (and what Nissan does in a few years with the Ariya's OBC).

Like what exactly?

I gave you a list - if you can't be bothered to read it or choose to ignore it, that's on you.

So, how's that trip to Glacier or Great Basin or Monument Valley in your e-Tron coming?

Glacier is easy with destination charging. (There is a J1772 as well as a Tesla) How would it work with a fool cell? Oh, that's right, take a rental ICE... If you can get one. Try to rent a car recently? Don't need the Taco Bell sites as well.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=feaf1ffd-f5bc-4382-ab12-887c6581d405

And all you'd have to do is drive an extra 60 miles so you can charge in Missoula instead of taking the direct route cutting over from St. Regis, and spend the night at a destination chosen because you can charge there. Yeah, no extra time or trip limitations there. :roll:

Great Basin National Park with destination charging looks more than ok. Smooth and quiet in the BEV, not noisy stinky rattling ICE.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=6ef8ac22-303e-477a-8b79-db2050ff73f2

Provided you're willing to bet your trip on a single, unreliable DCFC being both working and available, in Jackpot or anywhere else (I'm not); you might want to look at the check-ins there on Plugshare. Not to mention the extra 39 miles/40 minutes of driving from the detour over to W. Wendover instead of going direct S. on U.S. 93, owing to the lack of a DC FC station in Wells; I've been begging EA to add a station there (and Twin Falls, for the people traveling between NorCal/Reno and Grand Teton/Yellowstone, saving over 100 miles vs. going via SLC. BTDT) for a couple of years now, so far without success.

And again, your car is choosing where you stay. In addition to the above sites, an FC station is also wanted in Baker, NV, the gateway to GB. For those of us camping inside the park (we were up at the campground at the road end at 10k feet) , L2 in Baker is only useful if we're desperate.
Plus, at least 1 more charger in Ely, and a FC station in Delta or Hinkley, UT to make getting there from the East easier. A general upgrade of all the DCFCs along U.S. 50 in Nevada is needed to make E-W access reliable.

Monument Valley is easy with a BEV. Fool cell can't make it.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=fddcdc53-1a45-4405-b445-0abb9e33cd1a

Yeah, thanks to some new CPs in Utah, you can get there okay from the north, provided you return the same way. Unfortunately, I'm coming from the west and south, and probably continuing on from there. Having driven from Farmington, NM, via Bluff and Monument Valley to the S. rim of the Grand Canyon in an ICE, this is not theoretical for me.

Also, let's see you do the following trip. Drive from Moab (single FC dependency), to the Needles district of Canyonlands (3-day backpack), back out to Monticello (2 FCs) to Blanding then west to Natural Bridges (night in campground, morning day-hiking), drive from there through Capitol Reef, turn left at Torrey and drive to Bryce Canyon (night in campground, day hike in morning), drive to Zion (camp in campground, day hikes for next two days. Zion is fairly well supplied with charging near the campgrounds now). I've done that trip too, in an ICE. Notice the total lack of FCs or even L2s (until Hanksville) from Monticello on that route? It's only 403 miles until the next nearest FC in Kanab, and that only requires a RT 34 mile detour. Or you can show how committed you are, and stretch your battery by driving as slow as possible to the EA station in Washington, UT, just 460 miles from Monticello on this route. Yes sir, no extra time or inconvenience required there.

What's also needed are additional FC stations in Blanding, Hanksville, Torrey, Boulder and/or Escalante, maybe Cannonville, Bryce, and preferably one along U S. 89 between Bryce and Mt. Carmel Junction, plus one in Springdale. These are all gateway towns to NPs/NMs, and there are gas stations in all of them despite an ICE's greater range (they serve locals too, no doubt, but the majority of their business during vacation season is probably tourists).

Of course, an FCEV just needs the necessary infrastructure (and less of it than any current BEV (possibly bar the Lucid) to make the trip, just as any car does. Once it's possible to travel on any such route with plentiful, reliable DCFCs (or H2 stations) all along it, especially but not limited to all gateway towns to national parks and monuments, then such trips will be acceptably practical in a BEV or FCEV.

The BEV uses less of your time 50 weeks out of the year, and can get to more places than a fool cell the other two weeks. (Adjust based on vacation time used for trips.)

As long as people value their vacation time more highly than their routine time, they will continue to opt for cars that let them go via any route they want and let them eat and stay where they want.

 

[GRA]

So, while my usage is several standard deviations out, my basic requirements are as mainstream as they get.

Sounds like your requirements are all on mainstream parameters, but of magnitudes that are several standard deviations out.

Cheers, Wayne

Maybe, but I think it's more a case of my usage is entirely at one extreme (road trips, especially to remote and/or rural areas) while most peoples' are spread along the spectrum, but they want the same capability when operating at my extreme as I do. Apparently GM agrees that more range is important if not critical for mainstream sales - via GCR:

GM aims for affordable EVs with longer range with battery innovation center

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...h-longer-range-with-battery-innovation-center

General Motors sees a future of 600-mile EVs, enabled by advances that will double energy density, while it also targets a 60% cost reduction by mid-decade. . . .

 

[rogersleaf]

Unless it's a feature that causes one buyer to choose car A over car B, and that's not irrelevant at all.

Then it matters to that buyer. Yet it is very clear that this isn't a key requirement for most, as many buyers of EVSEs pick the 40A over the 48A units.

I'd probably make the same pick right now, given that a 40A w/plug would buy me some options on a trip. Provide lots of DCFCs and I would opt for the hard-wired 48A, AOTBE. But assuming the price difference is as small as I expect it would be, I'd still opt for a 48A OBC over a 40A, o give me more flexibility and convenience. Everyone will make that judgement for themselves, so we can see how sales go (and what Nissan does in a few years with the Ariya's OBC).

A more handy function for the future Ayria (or any EV) would be the capability to dial back the OBC amperage to comply with the building wiring supporting the EVSE. There seems to be this hyper-focus on how fast (or increased OBC power levels) for L2 charging. For the 95% of EV charging sessions that will happen at a residential home (or someone else's home), the concern becomes ability to safely charge within the constraints of the residence and without significant investment into rewiring or upgrading the electrical panel in the home. I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of homes like mine with 100 amp panels where future EV owners would appreciate that capability.

 

[GRA]

Then it matters to that buyer. Yet it is very clear that this isn't a key requirement for most, as many buyers of EVSEs pick the 40A over the 48A units.

I'd probably make the same pick right now, given that a 40A w/plug would buy me some options on a trip. Provide lots of DCFCs and I would opt for the hard-wired 48A, AOTBE. But assuming the price difference is as small as I expect it would be, I'd still opt for a 48A OBC over a 40A, o give me more flexibility and convenience. Everyone will make that judgement for themselves, so we can see how sales go (and what Nissan does in a few years with the Ariya's OBC).

A more handy function for the future Ayria (or any EV) would be the capability to dial back the OBC amperage to comply with the building wiring supporting the EVSE. There seems to be this hyper-focus on how fast (or increased OBC power levels) for L2 charging. For the 95% of EV charging sessions that will happen at a residential home (or someone else's home), the concern becomes ability to safely charge within the constraints of the residence and without significant investment into rewiring or upgrading the electrical panel in the home. I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of homes like mine with 100 amp panels where future EV owners would appreciate that capability.

No argument from me. I know the Bolt allowed you to pick a lower power rate at least for L1; don't remember for L2. Being able to choose a max. rate is a no-brainer; is there some particular car you're thinking of that doesn't allow this?

 

[knightmb]

A more handy function for the future Ayria (or any EV) would be the capability to dial back the OBC amperage to comply with the building wiring supporting the EVSE. There seems to be this hyper-focus on how fast (or increased OBC power levels) for L2 charging. For the 95% of EV charging sessions that will happen at a residential home (or someone else's home), the concern becomes ability to safely charge within the constraints of the residence and without significant investment into rewiring or upgrading the electrical panel in the home. I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of homes like mine with 100 amp panels where future EV owners would appreciate that capability.

It would be, but the EVSE units often have the ability to set this for that very reason. If the wiring only supports 16A for example, you set that in the EVSE and it communicates that to the EV to limit charging power.

 

[WetEV]

I'd probably make the same pick right now,

Once you have an EV, your opinions about what home wiring and OBCs might be more useful. Experience can teach. My opinions about horses are worthless, as I have never have maintained a horse. I have little experience with horses.

And all you'd have to do is drive an extra 60 miles so you can charge in Missoula

Everything is a trade-off. Your horse lets you take a more direct route, of course. Horses do, in my experience, tend to leave little piles of pollution behind.

Monument Valley is easy with a BEV. Fool cell can't make it.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=fddcdc53-1a45-4405-b445-0abb9e33cd1a

Of course, an FCEV just needs the necessary infrastructure (and less of it than any current BEV (possibly bar the Lucid) to make the trip, just as any car does. Once it's possible to travel on any such route with plentiful, reliable DCFCs (or H2 stations) all along it, especially but not limited to all gateway towns to national parks and monuments, then such trips will be acceptably practical in a BEV or FCEV.

Hydrogen stations are very expensive. DOE estimates that just the station will cost $1,200 to $3,000 per kg/day. Remote places will have infrequent usage, so will be higher cost per kg delivered.

Home charging is $5.29, more or less, on a comparable basis, i.e. just the outlet. Sure, L1 will only give you about 3 miles per hour... but that's more than a kg of H2 will take you. Best of all, you don't have to drive somewhere and stand in cold/heat/whatever the weather is doing.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Hospital-Grade-Extra-Heavy-Duty-Self-Grounding-Duplex-Outlet-Gray-8200-GY/301361294

Almost all driving is not to remote corners of the USA.

The BEV uses less of your time 50 weeks out of the year, and can get to more places than a fool cell the other two weeks. (Adjust based on vacation time used for trips.)

As long as people value their vacation time more highly than their routine time, they will continue to opt for cars that let them go via any route they want and let them eat and stay where they want.

Notice that unless you travel on vacation to the sorts of very remote places you highlight, then the BEV is more convenient than the ICE. And the fool cell can't travel to those places at all. Not now, and likely never.

Again notice how convenient home/destination charging is. Fuel cells and ICE's can't do this. Sure, doesn't work when you are wilderness camping. But that's a small fraction of people, likely to be among the very last to drive electric. Like you.

 

[knightmb]

I just noticed this topic is under my username, but after reading all these pages, I'm not really sure what the discussion is about now. :lol:

 

[LeftieBiker]

Probably one of the years-long serials by GRA and WetEV.

 

[knightmb]

Ok, I found some info that says, the 65 kWh battery will use a 32A OBC and that the 90 kWh battery will use a 92A OBC, so was the original topic here a discussion about it *not* having a big enough OBC? :?

Charging sees a 7.4 kW AC on-board charger fitted as standard to 65 kWh models, though this is bumped up to a 22 kW AC on-board charger to enable three-phase charging on 90 kWh versions.

 

[jlv]

I just noticed this topic is under my username, but after reading all these pages, I'm not really sure what the discussion is about now. :lol:

I tried my best to split this off at the point it became about charging and not the Ariya...

 

[WetEV]

Ok, I found some info that says, the 65 kWh battery will use a 32A OBC and that the 90 kWh battery will use a 92A OBC, so was the original topic here a discussion about it *not* having a big enough OBC? :?

Charging sees a 7.4 kW AC on-board charger fitted as standard to 65 kWh models, though this is bumped up to a 22 kW AC on-board charger to enable three-phase charging on 90 kWh versions.

Three-phase (22kW AC) is likely for (EU/China) Type 2 only. J1772 (USA/Japan/Australia) supports only single phase.

 

[GRA]

I'd probably make the same pick right now,

Once you have an EV, your opinions about what home wiring and OBCs might be more useful. Experience can teach. My opinions about horses are worthless, as I have never have maintained a horse. I have little experience with horses.

How long does it take you to decide that hitting your head with a hammer hurts and is unacceptable, before you stop? Does that require you to have a year or two of experience repeatedly doing so, or do you immediately say "not doing that anymore"?

I've experienced being dependent on L1 for a week with a BEV (simulated as my sole vehicle), and was prevented from driving when and where I wanted to on two occasions during that week because of it. Not acceptable (well, now that there are FCs reasonably close by I could live with it, but being dependent on them blows the whole "home charging is so much more convenient" argument away). I've also experienced charging a Bolt at 32A L2, taking 8 hr. 36 min. to go from about 12-13% - 100% while stuck somewhere I didn't want to be, and would have killed to reduce that time by 25-50% if possible. Again, not acceptable if given the option for something better, depending on price etc.

I've also taken 47 minutes to FC that same Bolt from 77-100%, and the same time to FC it from 45-80%. Neither is acceptable to me compared to 5 minutes or less filling up a tank, and that's based on 40+ years of driving experience and a lifetime's knowledge of my own personality, which is notably lacking the patience to waste time when and where I don't need or want to. Which is why I know that any BEV that I'd be willing to buy will almost certainly have an 800+V pack that allows it to FC from 20-80% or more in 20 minutes or less while providing me with at least 4 hours of range, and offers me the highest possible L2 rate. That still falls far short of an ICE or FCEV's refueling time and convenience, but I could live with it for the sake of zero emissions. An FCEV or zero carbon liquid-fueled ICE is still a much better match for my requirements.

And all you'd have to do is drive an extra 60 miles so you can charge in Missoula

Everything is a trade-off. Your horse lets you take a more direct route, of course. Horses do, in my experience, tend to leave little piles of pollution behind.

You're always talking about the convenience of home charging (which we agree on if it's available), yet you casually dismiss needing to go an hour or so out of your way plus spend 1/2 to 1 hour FCing (considerably more if only L2 is available) as of no consequence, versus driving by the shortest route and spending 5 minutes if needed to fill up a tank. Nope, no blind spot there.

Monument Valley is easy with a BEV. Fool cell can't make it.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=fddcdc53-1a45-4405-b445-0abb9e33cd1a

Of course, an FCEV just needs the necessary infrastructure (and less of it than any current BEV (possibly bar the Lucid) to make the trip, just as any car does. Once it's possible to travel on any such route with plentiful, reliable DCFCs (or H2 stations) all along it, especially but not limited to all gateway towns to national parks and monuments, then such trips will be acceptably practical in a BEV or FCEV.

Hydrogen stations are very expensive. DOE estimates that just the station will cost $1,200 to $3,000 per kg/day. Remote places will have infrequent usage, so will be higher cost per kg delivered.

Inevitably early stations with limited usage will be very expensive, just as early DCFCs have been Fortunately, H2 station prices have come down considerably from the first gen and will continue to do so, thanks to economies of scale, lower transport costs due to a switch to LH2 delivery, the usual technical improvements, and the learning curve. DoE also forecasts that H2 will be cost-competitive with gasoline in this country around 2030. Naturally, such forecasts tend to have wide margins of error, like the one announced by Obama that we'd have 1 million PEVs on the road here by 2015, and we'll see whether BEVs achieve comparable cost (and capability) as ICEs by 2025 or so, as another forecast states.

Home charging is $5.29, more or less, on a comparable basis, i.e. just the outlet. Sure, L1 will only give you about 3 miles per hour... but that's more than a kg of H2 will take you. Best of all, you don't have to drive somewhere and stand in cold/heat/whatever the weather is doing.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Hospital-Grade-Extra-Heavy-Duty-Self-Grounding-Duplex-Outlet-Gray-8200-GY/301361294

Almost all driving is not to remote corners of the USA.

Oh, the horror of driving to a gas station once a week and spending 5 minutes there filling up. No one would possibly put up with that just to get the unimportant advantages of an ICE compared to a BEV, and to think that they'd have done so voluntarily for more than a century is a fantasy.

BTW, you need to check your calculator. 3mpkg? Try 50-60.

The BEV uses less of your time 50 weeks out of the year, and can get to more places than a fool cell the other two weeks. (Adjust based on vacation time used for trips.)

As long as people value their vacation time more highly than their routine time, they will continue to opt for cars that let them go via any route they want and let them eat and stay where they want.

Notice that unless you travel on vacation to the sorts of very remote places you highlight, then the BEV is more convenient than the ICE. And the fool cell can't travel to those places at all. Not now, and likely never.

A BEV is more convenient for local use if you have dedicated, guaranteed home charging and for trips only if you are going to a destination with charging that you would have gone to in any case, and you had some other reason to spend enough time there to get enough charge for the next trip you need to to. If not, not.

Again, you assume that the majority of the public shares your perceptions and priorities, and that H2 infrastructure can never be built. Well, in the case DCFC for long-distance trips, barring a corporation getting caught being very naughty such (non-Tesla) infrastructure still wouldn't exist here, and you couldn't do any such trips in your e-Tron, unless you make the whole trip a BEV adventure like Tony Williams' BC2BC.

Again notice how convenient home/destination charging is. Fuel cells and ICE's can't do this. Sure, doesn't work when you are wilderness camping. But that's a small fraction of people, likely to be among the very last to drive electric. Like you.

See previous comments re convenience, and note that 'small fraction of people' who decided that home charging convenience doesn't outweigh a BEV's disadvantages was 97.5% of U.S. car buyers YTD, vs. the 2.5% who agree with you. Which is larger, 97.5 or2.5?

 

[GRA]

Probably one of the years-long serials by GRA and WetEV.

Yup.

 

[GRA]

Ok, I found some info that says, the 65 kWh battery will use a 32A OBC and that the 90 kWh battery will use a 92A OBC, so was the original topic here a discussion about it *not* having a big enough OBC? :?

Charging sees a 7.4 kW AC on-board charger fitted as standard to 65 kWh models, though this is bumped up to a 22 kW AC on-board charger to enable three-phase charging on 90 kWh versions.

European versions. We don't have 22kW 3-phase here.

 

[SageBrush]

Three-phase (22kW AC) is likely for (EU/China) Type 2 only.

Yep, and if my arithmetic is correct only with a 400v feed.

The "96 Amp" sentence is a misunderstanding by the writer. The OBC has 3, 32 Amp chargers. I'm not positive, but I get the impression that in Europe 400 volt, 16 Amp 3 phase feeds are reasonably common so that would work out to 11 kW to an EV. 12 Amp wires works out to 8.3 kW

 

[WetEV]

Once you have an EV, your opinions about what home wiring and OBCs might be more useful. Experience can teach. My opinions about horses are worthless, as I have never have maintained a horse. I have little experience with horses.

How long does it take you to decide that hitting your head with a hammer hurts and is unacceptable, before you stop?

90% of vehicles sold in Norway are EVs. I'd expect you to be in the last 10% here, based on your use case. Looking ahead, we are a decade behind Norway, so you have a decade or a bit more to whine about why you don't want an electric. And I'd expect used ICEs for another decade or two would be an option.

Why don't we pause this discussion until fuel cell car sales collapse as manufacturers give up, or *EV sales exceed 50%?

Again, you assume that the majority of the public shares your perceptions and priorities, and that H2 infrastructure can never be built. Well, in the case DCFC for long-distance trips, barring a corporation getting caught being very naughty such (non-Tesla) infrastructure still wouldn't exist here, and you couldn't do any such trips in your e-Tron, unless you make the whole trip a BEV adventure like Tony Williams' BC2BC.

Note that Tony's BC2BC got way too easy, and was no longer an adventure. Last one was in 2014. Tesla cars got too easy first, but it is now too easy for everyone.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=61b2bdda-3481-43de-9bec-cce196562c22

Trips in EVs getting easier is the trend, you should notice, and that is one thing that is dooming hydrogen cars. Not my perceptions or priorities. Why will governments and manufacturers continue to subsidize hydrogen cars?