CHAdeMO and SAE dual ported DC Fast Chargers

[LEAFer]

How about referencing what the "West Coast Green Highway" is all about, and more particularly, the already implemented and highly successful sections in OR & WA ?

 

[padamson1]

...huge snip on exchange with NY State official suggesting CHAdeMO not be banned in the state's proposed EVSE charging legislation...

Any recommendations on how to respond from this point? It seems that NY will be stuck with no QCs for quite a while...

The best response is to list the companies that have stated support for the SAE connector and then how many of them have cancelled or delayed their EV programs. As it stands now, no one has announced the delivery date of a vehicle that will have a SAE QC port. My guess is Ford will be the first, but given the slow ramp rate of the Focus EV, it is safe to say that it will be two years before (if ever) we see an SAE port on a car that customers can buy off a lot.

Then again, perhaps a facetious tactic would be more effective.

Given that no companies have even announced a delivery date for a vehicle that supports SAE, as a NY state taxpayer I think the legislation should be more truthful: QC will not be supported as we don't want to support the two standards (Tesla & CHAdeMO) that have actual cars on the road today and will wait and see if the companies that created SAE will make EV's in the future

 

[DANandNAN]

I think the government response is perfect. There's no rush to install expensive stations that no one is going to use and aren't "quick".

Leafer, can you post some numbers on what makes these "electric highways" highly successful? They've only been in use for a few months, there's a lot of stations that aren't charging actual amounts yet, and Leaf & i-MiEV sales are in the tank so I'm wondering what makes it "highly successful".

padamson1, I don't think pointing to the lack of a SAE Combo equipped car will help the argument since they could (should) point right back at the Leaf & i-MiEV low sales numbers (monthly and total). I'm guessing they've already looked up the number of registered Leaf's and that probably convinced them to wait.

 

[LEAFer]

@DANandNAN: You can read the stories of LEAF owners right here on MNL that have used them. In addition to GaslessInSeattle, myself and Tony driving the BC2BC LEAF (in both directions), several other owners in WA and OR seem to have ventured much further from home ( or experienced much less inconvenience ) due to the existence of the QC.

In addition, read the comments left by actual users on PlugShare.com or Recargo.com. The positve comments are a subset of successful uses, plus complaints when stations were out of service. The latter are expected to be a larger subset of actual number of times the station was visited. The inconvenience of having to use L2 when the QC had trouble shines thru between the lines. The trouble reports appear to get the proper response in a relatively short period of time.

I quote several of the positive reviews below. You can look them up on their respective sites.

{Plugshare} The Outlet Shops, Burlington, WA: <no name> a month ago:

Have used AV QC three times within the last week - works great! Great instructions too! Has sped up our life considerably!

{Plugshare} Bellingham, WA: Mark, 19 days ago:

Used this charger yesterday. I learned that you have to make sure the plug is completely inserted before pressing the handle (like you're pumping gas.) Great experience. 50 feet from Starbucks. A win-win!

{Plugshare} Tumwater, <no name>, 22 days ago:

Great! Charging on my first trip up to Seattle from Portland.

{Plugshare} Ridgefield, WA: HJB, a month ago

Olympia to Portland today thanks to DC chargers. Lunch pretty good at the Cafe too.

{Plugshare} Halsey, OR: Derek, two months ago:

Charged twice here today. There is a restaurant here with the old form of family transports, covered wagons. What a great location ODOT! From Hood River to Springfield and back.

{Recargo} Halsey, OR

bowthom in a Nissan Leaf on Saturday May 12, 2012
(Good - Charged Successfully)
100% L3, return trip to PDX.

{Recargo} Ridgefield, WA

berjaunter in a Nissan Leaf on Sunday Jun 17, 2012
(Good - Charged Successfully)
Needed 100% charge to reach here from Centralia 62MPH cruise ctl

 

[JeremyW]

I'd emphasize how much the installation costs truly are for quick charge stations, and that these are "recovered" if sites need to be "upgraded" to use a new standard. Site owners have to invest significant money into running the 3 phase over to where they want the QC, plus transformer upgrades too if they don't have a lot of spare capacity (the blink I stopped at this weekend needs 100 amps at 480V).

The site, permitting, pad, and the wiring to the quick charger is more valuable then the actual quick charger itself. :roll:

Of course, try to word it in a way that doesn't turn them off completely to the idea of setting up quick chargers due to expenses.

Jeremy

 

[NYLEAF]

I'd emphasize how much the installation costs truly are for quick charge stations, and that these are "recovered" if sites need to be "upgraded" to use a new standard. Site owners have to invest significant money into running the 3 phase over to where they want the QC, plus transformer upgrades too if they don't have a lot of spare capacity (the blink I stopped at this weekend needs 100 amps at 480V).

The site, permitting, pad, and the wiring to the quick charger is more valuable then the actual quick charger itself. :roll:

Of course, try to word it in a way that doesn't turn them off completely to the idea of setting up quick chargers due to expenses.

Jeremy

This is exactly what I was trying to say in my original e-mail, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. NYSERDA definitely seems interested in giving money for both Level 2 and Level 3 installations, they just don't want to give any money to Level 3 that doesn't conform to the SAE Combo standard -- they feel it is a poor investment. Obviously, we know it isn't. Let's at least run the power and pour the concrete and get these sites "Level 3-Ready". That seems to be the biggest hurdle. In a few months, there will be stations available in the market that offer CHAdeMO and SAE side-by-side. In fact, I find it hard to believe that we will ever see a single SAE Combo-ONLY installation in the US, at least in the near future (5-10 years?). They will all offer both plus. Why would anyone want to alienate all the CHAdeMO-capable cars on the road already?

 

[paraski40]

I'd emphasize how much the installation costs truly are for quick charge stations, and that these are "recovered" if sites need to be "upgraded" to use a new standard. Site owners have to invest significant money into running the 3 phase over to where they want the QC, plus transformer upgrades too if they don't have a lot of spare capacity (the blink I stopped at this weekend needs 100 amps at 480V).

The site, permitting, pad, and the wiring to the quick charger is more valuable then the actual quick charger itself. :roll:

Of course, try to word it in a way that doesn't turn them off completely to the idea of setting up quick chargers due to expenses.

Jeremy

This is exactly what I was trying to say in my original e-mail, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. NYSERDA definitely seems interested in giving money for both Level 2 and Level 3 installations, they just don't want to give any money to Level 3 that doesn't conform to the SAE Combo standard -- they feel it is a poor investment. Obviously, we know it isn't. Let's at least run the power and pour the concrete and get these sites "Level 3-Ready". That seems to be the biggest hurdle. In a few months, there will be stations available in the market that offer CHAdeMO and SAE side-by-side. In fact, I find it hard to believe that we will ever see a single SAE Combo-ONLY installation in the US, at least in the near future (5-10 years?). They will all offer both plus. Why would anyone want to alienate all the CHAdeMO-capable cars on the road already?

Maybe because there are not that much "CHAdeMO-capable cars on the road already"

 

[TonyWilliams]

In a few months, there will be stations available in the market that offer CHAdeMO and SAE side-by-side.

I'll take that bet. SAE hasn't even voted yet to adopt the Frankenplug, nor have they developed the specific protocols.

Nothing will be on the street corner without UL / Intertek approval (perhaps years away).

 

[NYLEAF]

In a few months, there will be stations available in the market that offer CHAdeMO and SAE side-by-side.

I'll take that bet. SAE hasn't even voted yet to adopt the Frankenplug, nor have they developed the specific protocols.

Nothing will be on the street corner without UL / Intertek approval (perhaps years away).

Well then, all the more reason for NYSERDA to get CHAdeMO stations out there. As I said in my original email to them, whenever the "Combo" stations are ready, they can be installed to complement the existing CHAdeMO stations. Or, if Combo is the only game in town by that point, as NYSERDA seems to predict, they can just rip out the CHAdeMO station, sell it cheap to some entity in Japan or Europe, and install a Combo station instead. It'll be a lot cheaper than a new install from scratch, no?

 

[DANandNAN]

@DANandNAN: You can read the stories of LEAF owners right here on MNL that have used them. In addition to GaslessInSeattle, myself and Tony driving the BC2BC LEAF (in both directions), several other owners in WA and OR seem to have ventured much further from home ( or experienced much less inconvenience ) due to the existence of the QC.

In addition, read the comments left by actual users on PlugShare.com or Recargo.com. The positve comments are a subset of successful uses, plus complaints when stations were out of service. The latter are expected to be a larger subset of actual number of times the station was visited. The inconvenience of having to use L2 when the QC had trouble shines thru between the lines. The trouble reports appear to get the proper response in a relatively short period of time.

I think you and I have different understandings of "highly successful". You've quoted a handful (heck, lets say 5 handfuls) of uses. That doesn't make it "highly successful".

First, it's only been around for a short amount of time, and folks love to try out new things - but that doesn't mean that they'll continue finding it convinient and using it. Second, it's free or subsidized right now which gives folks an incentive to try it - if they start charging though, how many folks will be willing to pay? We're having trouble getting people willing to pay $2/hr for L2 because they feel they aren't getting their money's worth even though it's clear that stations (even the relatively inexpensive by comparison L2) cost money and need to be paid for. And, as I said before, Leaf and i-MiEV sales are in the tank - a highly successful program L3 highway should have the Leaf sales soaring, but it doesn't.

So, obviously we have a different interpretation of "highly successful". Sure, some folks have used it and posted their rave reviews, but that alone is far from highly successful.

 

[DANandNAN]

The site, permitting, pad, and the wiring to the quick charger is more valuable then the actual quick charger itself. :roll:

That's a great point, but in the future fast charges will be fast and require even more juice so the station will be out of date before long if they only wire it for today's standards (be they CHAdeMO or SAE Combo). Just something to think about.

This is exactly what I was trying to say in my original e-mail, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. NYSERDA definitely seems interested in giving money for both Level 2 and Level 3 installations, they just don't want to give any money to Level 3 that doesn't conform to the SAE Combo standard -- they feel it is a poor investment. Obviously, we know it isn't. Let's at least run the power and pour the concrete and get these sites "Level 3-Ready". That seems to be the biggest hurdle. In a few months, there will be stations available in the market that offer CHAdeMO and SAE side-by-side. In fact, I find it hard to believe that we will ever see a single SAE Combo-ONLY installation in the US, at least in the near future (5-10 years?). They will all offer both plus. Why would anyone want to alienate all the CHAdeMO-capable cars on the road already?

Why do we know it isn't a poor investment? How many Leaf's are there in NY? 150? Maybe 250? There's 13K total in the US (and probably 12K with a CHAdeMO port), let's divide that by 45 of the 50 states. That's 288 per state, but we know that the early adopter states and states with incentives have way more. There's a reported 400 in Arizona and California must have even more (triple? quadruple?). So, of those 250 NY owners, how many are willing to drive at 40MPH for a trip?

Instead of asking why would NY want to alienate the CHAdeMO cars, why not ask how many of those 250 are willing to drive at 40MPH and pay what stations cost (and everything is more expensive in NY)?

 

[NYLEAF]

Yes, maybe there are only 250 Leafs in NY. Without any Quick Chargers in the state, the number of Leafs here will continue to be low. It's a chicken and egg type of thing. And although I do personally plan on making a road trip across NY in my Leaf one day, traveling the equivalent of 40 MPH, my guess is that the majority of New Yorker's would find Quick Chargers useful on day when they unexpectedly run out of range. I wouldn't call this an "emergency" scenario, it's more equivalent to the gas station scenario. Once QCs are ubiquitous, EV drivers won't have to plan out their days so precisely -- if they run a bit low, they can just top off at a QC (and yes, pay for the privilege. As EVs become more competitive with ICEVs in price, EV drivers will not be as reluctant to pay for public charging.) Speaking of paying for charging, $2/hour for L2 at 3.3kW is outrageous. Even the CEO of Coulomb Technologies agrees.

Yes, maybe it is a poor investment -- however, the fact is that NYSERDA has $4.4 million that they need to give out towards EV charging infrastructure. They've previously given out an additional $4.4 million, which is leading to 325+ Level 2 stations being installed across the state. In my eyes, Level 2 is the poor investment. You talk about long recharge times with "Quick" chargers. You think L2 is better? (Or are you one of those people that thinks a real "quick charger" dispenses gasoline?)

As a NY taxpayer, I'd much rather they invest at least a portion of that money towards QC stations, even if they have to be dual ported with SAE (tying back to this thread's original topic).

 

[DANandNAN]

I don't think either L2 or L3 should be called "quick". But, the stations are less expensive which helps, they're supported by more than twice as many cars and when installed at businesses and venues they provide adequate charging.

The problem with the "chicken and the egg" argument is that no one knows which came first. We definitely know that Leaf sales are (and have been) in the tank and the i-MiEV has fallen off the cliff - and we know that both of those cars have CHAdeMO ports. If more stations was the answer to a RLBEV EVolution it would show up in sales. It's not.

And although I do personally plan on making a road trip across NY in my Leaf one day, traveling the equivalent of 40 MPH, my guess is that the majority of New Yorker's would find Quick Chargers useful on day when they unexpectedly run out of range.

So spending 40-100K per charger on folks who occasionally unexpectedly run out of range isn't a waste? Wouldn't it be better buying them AAA w/ towing cards once their Nissan towing coverage runs out?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I don't think either L2 or L3 should be called "quick". But, the stations are less expensive which helps, they're supported by more than twice as many cars and when installed at businesses and venues they provide adequate charging.

The problem with the "chicken and the egg" argument is that no one knows which came first. We definitely know that Leaf sales are (and have been) in the tank and the i-MiEV has fallen off the cliff - and we know that both of those cars have CHAdeMO ports. If more stations was the answer to a RLBEV EVolution it would show up in sales. It's not.

And although I do personally plan on making a road trip across NY in my Leaf one day, traveling the equivalent of 40 MPH, my guess is that the majority of New Yorker's would find Quick Chargers useful on day when they unexpectedly run out of range.

So spending 40-100K per charger on folks who occasionally unexpectedly run out of range isn't a waste? Wouldn't it be better buying them AAA w/ towing cards once their Nissan towing coverage runs out?

i think we need to reevaluate the usage of quick charge stations and how they enhance usability of the LEAF

 

[TimeHorse]

I'm personally sad to hear about New York. I know the Japanese are stubborn and so CHAdeMO will take longer to die than it rightfully should. But as I said here I think the solution should not be a grant because of issues like this where people get all hung up in how the money is spent. Grants are great, don't get me wrong. But when you live in a place like Virginia you know a grant is about as likely as hell freezing over and that doesn't get any L3 installed. In this case, I'd appeal to your General Assembly Delegate and Senator and Governor about changing the law to require that all stations be dual-gang SAE & CHAdeMO. I suppose it'd be nice if the legislation included a proviso that allowed only the CHAdeMO to be installed as long as the unit had a free port where an SAE plug could also be installed when such plugs become available.

I also think Ingineer's work under NDA on CHAdeMO will probably come to a great fruition with some kind of SAE-to-CHAdeMO unit and if not him, someone else. If they could make a custom Tesla Roadster plug to J1772 plug I'm sure they could do this. Electrically the DC is about the same it's just the handshaking digital protocol that's the issue. The OpenCHAdeMO project may also see these converters. But I still feel strongly that I95 should be as fluid to EV travel as it is to cars using the terrorist fluid. And that's what I'm working on. But my goal is credits at the state level followed by station owner outreach. It should be grass roots and keeping it local because only at the local level do we know what the true use-case is.

Now, I can tell you my life would be @#$%@%^ so much easier to day with QuickCharge because with all the A/C we have to use in the heatwave in the Mid Atlantic I can't get from home to work to the local EAA meeting to home on a full charge and I also can't charge at work which I'm sure Dan & Not-A-Number would say is a good thing because employees shouldn't be getting any transit perks even when they do get those public transit vouchers which equally reduce emissions if only 1 congestion though with the transit subsidy being 4 times that which charging at work would cost an employer. As it is it's likely I'll have to sit in an empty parking lot for a couple hours to accumulate enough charge to get home tonight. But I don't just blame this on a lack of L3. I feel very strongly in favor of charge at work as the second best charge location after home and rather appropriate on 120VAC, nothing fancy. I'd love to see L2 in movie theaters and shopping malls and other locations where the average stay is more than 60 minutes and L3 should be used rarely but whereas charging shouldn't be like fueling an ICE where the 2 should intersect is at locations along the interstates where you find rest areas and petrol stations. Again, Dan & Not-A-Number and I may disagree on this matter but I do think I see his point of view if it stems from pessimism.

I do think that Dan & Not-A-Number are right to be skeptical of CHAdeMO because it's quite reasonable for it to die if we as a society so choose. It's a question of whether we want to make this a standards war or a one-size-fits-all. Is CHAdeMO Betamax or is it DVD+R?

 

[DANandNAN]

I don't think either L2 or L3 should be called "quick". But, the stations are less expensive which helps, they're supported by more than twice as many cars and when installed at businesses and venues they provide adequate charging.

The problem with the "chicken and the egg" argument is that no one knows which came first. We definitely know that Leaf sales are (and have been) in the tank and the i-MiEV has fallen off the cliff - and we know that both of those cars have CHAdeMO ports. If more stations was the answer to a RLBEV EVolution it would show up in sales. It's not.

And although I do personally plan on making a road trip across NY in my Leaf one day, traveling the equivalent of 40 MPH, my guess is that the majority of New Yorker's would find Quick Chargers useful on day when they unexpectedly run out of range.

So spending 40-100K per charger on folks who occasionally unexpectedly run out of range isn't a waste? Wouldn't it be better buying them AAA w/ towing cards once their Nissan towing coverage runs out?

i think we need to reevaluate the usage of quick charge stations and how they enhance usability of the LEAF

Amen!

timehorse, what does that not a number mean? Is that comedy?

I have absolutely no problem with companies offering charging at work. It's a perk, I'm all for it. I've recommended it to folks here and elsewhere countless times. Just because I'm against a few hundred people thinking they're entitled to a completely unwise government handout doesn't meant that I'm against employers offering a far less expensive incentive to their employees (current & future) and their clients.

 

[TimeHorse]

timehorse, what does that not a number mean? Is that comedy?

I have absolutely no problem with companies offering charging at work. It's a perk, I'm all for it. I've recommended it to folks here and elsewhere countless times. Just because I'm against a few hundred people thinking they're entitled to a completely unwise government handout doesn't meant that I'm against employers offering a far less expensive incentive to their employees (current & future) and their clients.

Sorry about that Dan. I'm a computer programmer and so when I see NAN I think this: NaN. But I think you and I agree more than disagree then. I think L3 should be all about government credits that cost nothing unless used. Encourage local businesses and contractors, fill dead zones and become all about the business trying to get more customers rather than some bureaucrat deciding this would be a nice place. And where I think we drivers get involved is once the appropriate credits are in place it's up to us to contact the businesses we think could profit most, such at Highway rest areas which already have basic amenities like McDonald's and Starbucks and already are serving gasoline vehicles. I would like to see external money from organizations like CarCharging (soon to be new owners of 350Green) but I want those decisions be about the drivers because nobody knows better than us where the blank spots are. Finally, though, I don't want to see politics enter into the decision of which type of station to install except in so far that if you get money for it from the government through a credit you gotta support both SAE J1772L3 and CHAdeMO/TEPCO. I'd prefer a three-gang Tesla unit but at least both CHAdeMO/SAE because it's not for government to take sides on which is better and the best infrastructure is to recognize current need (CHAdeMO) and future need (SAE J1772L3).

BTW, I've already said a number of times regardless of any government ruling on which is better that the SAE standard is by far so because the SAE J1772L3 is AFAICT an opened standard that anyone can implement but CHAdeMO requires a rather hefty licensing cost and NDA to be signed to even start development. That's not the way to win a standards war TEPCO!

I suppose you and I could disagree on whether government should have any role in this—that even a credit is a bad idea, but it's still pretty expensive to install L3 and I do see government's role to encourage but not force or dictate and most assuredly not to pick sides and make sure you play nice by supporting both, which again may be a point of disagreement.

Now, I did speak with Jill Sorensen of the Baltimore-Washington Electric Vehicle Initiative yesterday about this situation in NY and PA and she said she'd look into it. NYLEAF, I'm gonna PM you and see if you don't mind sharing the official statements from the NY fund organizers so that she can discuss them at the next regional meeting.

And BTW, NaNs are cool!

 

[padamson1]

I've been waiting to post a follow up to my first reply on this thread, now seems like the right time.

DANandNAN is clearly anti-QC, which is his right. However I use the new QC's in my area fairly regularly now and enjoy the way that they extend my range to around 100mi from my house. I don't think QC's are practical beyond that for the same reasons he cites (avg mph ~40), but b/c the QC's in Portland are well located (near shopping areas) I'm not inconvenienced at all by the 20min charge time (although I have waited 10min for somebody else to finish). I am not a big fan of the EV highway concept, I think sprinkling the units at the edge of major cities is more practical b/c using one more than twice a day is definitely not convenient. Unlike L2 stations these need to be located where people can do something quickly e.g fast food or shopping, so not a movie theater or workplace. We're not talking about commuters using these things, just travelers who need to extend there range a bit (e.g. get to a dealer, go see grandma, etc).

A few days ago I went to Hood River. I used a QC at WalMart (stocked up on goods for the day) then I used L2 in Hood River (QC was occupied, but I didn't need it) while I did some sea kayaking. Since I went to 100% on the L2, I didn't need to charge on the way back but I stopped anyway b/c it was going to be very close and got something to eat. No hit to my travel time. It also showed another point that DANandNAN seems intent on mentioning, the QCs are being used by people other than me, even though the damn sh%$ty design on the handles enables breakage (and downtime) about every other week (Blink should add pictures from the great Japanese video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAeyyLTx5WU on how to use the dang thing).

As I said in an earlier post, waiting for SAE EV's is basically as capricious as selling only a few EVs in California to satisfy regulatory hassles. If one is serious about EV investment then don't do it halfway, put in QCs. Since much of the cost of QC is getting the grid infrastructure to the EVSE location, get it there now and put in a dedicated CHAdeMO or dual unit w/ two CHAdeMOs. In a few years if and when SAE EVs appear, then swap out one of the logic boards and cable to support SAE.

Sure, there will be an added cost over waiting for SAE, but since no SAE cars have been announced and the soonest will be 2014 (if FFE does do it they will need to redesign the gas lid for the ICE version b/c there isn't room for the Frankenplug in the current aperture). In the meantime it will enable EV usage that isn't possible now as well as serve as an opportunity to study of habits and usage to help with placement of future stations and billing ideas.

 

[DANandNAN]

Timehorse,
I know what NaN is, I just didn’t know why you used it. I think we disagree with you about about spending government money on anything CHAdeMO. I don’t think the government should pick sides, but I do think the government should invest wisely. If brand X has 1 follower who’s sales are in the tank (and one who’s sales are crazy bad) and brand Y has 8 followers who haven’t made a car yet, but at least a few have cars in process, which way should the government go? Neither until a victor is apparent.

It’s easy to say that the it should be brand X because it has 10K+ cars on the road that can already use it. But, those are cars that were already sold.

It’s easy to say that it’s a chicken & egg thing, folks need “QC” before they will buy. But, there’s tons of brand X chargers out there, and no one is buying the brand X cars.

I see no reason for the government to invest in brand X when all that would do is support folks that had already bought X and attempt to influence the decisions of future buyers – which is something you said you wanted to avoid.

If private companies want to try their hand at “QC” then so be it (I just hope we divest first). If a private company needs a bit of help getting a loan of say 1M to install a bunch of “QC”, I’m in favor of that as long as their credentials are good and their business plan is sound.

padamson1,
Nope, not anti-QC. I am anti-waste for reasons described above and elsewhere. And, I’m against calling it a “QC” when it’s clearly not. At higher currents it’s faster than L2, but one way to cut costs is to cut the current and then they’re 20kw which is where the Tesla twin charger is.

You’re extending the range to 100 miles in the city – how often do you drive 100 miles in the city? Right now both of our cars are limited/hampered by the 3.3 on L2. Would a car with a 6.6 or 10kw charger work for your day – meaning would you stop places long enough to charge at 20MPHC for 1.5 hours or 30MPHC for 1 hour during the day? That’s about all you need to get your 100 mile day done. I know, L2 isn’t everywhere. How many L2 could be installed for the cost of a L3?

I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say “intent on mentioning”. Do you mean that people aren’t using them? What’s the evidence to the contrary? Folks post they are using them, once you had to wait 10 minutes, and the handles are broken (BTW, who’s more likely to break a handle, an EV owner or a vandal?)? I’ll agree that some people are using them. Now, will you agree that the number will go WAY down when the charges are no longer free or subsidized and businesses and business owners need to recoup their $40-100K? If you won’t agree then I’d recommend reading the thread with the poll asking what Leaf owners would pay for L3. Almost no one would pay to make the station viable/profitable, many wouldn’t pay much more than they’d pay at their homes, and then there’s the folks that would rather take the Prius if L3 charges cost more than that.

The FFE door doesn’t need a redesign to accommodate the SAE Combo. The SAE Combo is a single plug. Now, if they went with the big ‘mo then they’d need a gigantic charging door like the Leaf or a door on each side of the car like the i-MiEV – BTW, that’s a terrible design that was forced onto them because they went CHAdeMO. But, even if it didn’t “fit” they’d slightly redesign a single panel and call it a day – it’s not like that front quarter panel wasn’t created special once already. And, I think you’ve forgotten about BMW and the Spark EV.

It’s nice that you have access to L3, and it’s lucky that it’s free. It’ll be great if there’s a successful business model for it. See, I’m in favor of “QC”. The thing I'm not in favor of is owners begging for government handouts because current owners bought a city car with a sub-par charger and range. And, yes, as I said before, the Volt has the same sub-par charger - and that's why we're not buying a 2nd Volt. We're hopeful that a company will come out with an aftermarket 10kw charger for it and accepting the limitation of our 3.3. Accepting limitations is something others should do.

EV will need an infrastructure, but rushing headstrong with government dollars into brand x when there's no good reason is insanity.

 

[TimeHorse]

Timehorse,
I know what NaN is, I just didn’t know why you used it. I think we disagree with you about about spending government money on anything CHAdeMO. I don’t think the government should pick sides, but I do think the government should invest wisely. If brand X has 1 follower who’s sales are in the tank (and one who’s sales are crazy bad) and brand Y has 8 followers who haven’t made a car yet, but at least a few have cars in process, which way should the government go? Neither until a victor is apparent.

It’s easy to say that the it should be brand X because it has 10K+ cars on the road that can already use it. But, those are cars that were already sold.

It’s easy to say that it’s a chicken & egg thing, folks need “QC” before they will buy. But, there’s tons of brand X chargers out there, and no one is buying the brand X cars.

I see no reason for the government to invest in brand X when all that would do is support folks that had already bought X and attempt to influence the decisions of future buyers – which is something you said you wanted to avoid.

If private companies want to try their hand at “QC” then so be it (I just hope we divest first). If a private company needs a bit of help getting a loan of say 1M to install a bunch of “QC”, I’m in favor of that as long as their credentials are good and their business plan is sound.

I'm not per-se against government-backed, low interest microloans but I think you're missing my point. There's a reason it should be grass roots because the business model is to benefit the business not to create some free service for folks to take advantage. I don't want any business putting in L3 if it doesn't make financial sense but that's why I want grass roots because I work with the local businesses and I try to understand their needs and they try to understand ours. I don't live in an adversarial world here and I relish the idea that a fair balance can be wedged between profitability and customer satisfaction. I don't want government interference beyond making sure the money isn't taking sides and that's why if you spend for 1 you gotta spend for the other (when it becomes available). The main problem with a loan is that the return on investment might be longer-term than a loan could be held for where as a credit is a one-time aid to help now and I'm not suggesting a total government subsidy. I envision maybe a 50% or even just a 30% credit for the construction of these stations. And the government has another role and that's in creating jobs by requiring anyone who claims the credit to use in-state labor. The reason for something like this is not *just* to make us happy but to a) create jobs b) get customers who normally couldn't visit your establish with their EV to become new customers and c) good press and Word of Mouth for your behavior. The government money is just to make sure no-one outside the state/commonwealth/province is taking advantage of a) and to make sure the money is spent now rather than waiting years for some possible victor. And the way I see it, it behooves companies like Blink to develop dual-gang systems, like their Dual-Gang CHAdeMO / CHAdeMO unit such that one arm and maybe even both arms can be replaced with SAE J1772L3 eventually if the install-base of the region so warrants it. Most of the cost is in running the 3-phase line to the station; replacing a cars and conduit to the connector should be less than the cost of a stand-alone unit (i.e. less than $10,000 for CHAdeMO and likely less still for the simpler and well-documented SAE J1772L3 and of course with prices to come down over time so that we're probably talking a couple thousand by the time the SAE J1772L3 starts coming on-line.

As for cost, consider a 60 mi range on a QC. Compare that to a Prius running petrol which should get just a bit less than that per gallon. The cost of a gallon of gas is a shade under $4 so IMHO $4 per session is quite fair. But take 350Green (now CarCharging's) model of $7 per session. I'd happily pay that for a session even if it worked out to only about 32 mpg in today's fuel costs. The point for me is not having to buy the blood liquid and bring our troops home. That, for me, is more important than and fuel cost savings, but maybe although an environmentalist may feel the same way for different reasons than mine for national security I agree that not everyone is willing to pay it. But mating the average cost of a gallon of gas is a pretty good ball-park for a fair price for L3 IMHO. I don't think it should be free. And the important thing too is that the owner spent *some* money on the station, so they're financially invested and thus of course would take an interest in the stations well-being and upkeep. That's the other problem with out-and-out grants which is why I favor a credit or at least a micro loan that allows for an extended ROI.