Bay Area Walgreens / 350Green no longer free (ChargePoint)

[grommet]

To my surprise, the Walgreens EVSE on Taraval St in San Francisco, CA now charges $2/hr, and it has a 30 minute parking limit. Such a deal...

It looks like all the Walgreens in the Bay Area that are ChargePoint/Coulomb (via 350Green) are now $2/hr. instead of free. (The SemaConnect units seem to still be unlocked.) I used to quickly top off and buy something at Walgreen (far more than $2, FYI)... in other words, it worked as alternative marketing. Now it'll likely do the exact opposite and keep me away. ;-)

--Ron

 

[grommet]

Update: I guess this is a 350Green thing. Their web site has been updated to state:

"Coulomb Level 2 charging stations are $2 per hour and you will need to use a ChargePoint card to activate those, SemaConnect stations remain free."

This also means Stanford Shopping Center, being 350Green, is now $2/hour for L2. Ugh. At least there isn't a 30 minute limit. :shock:

 

[EVDrive]

Idiotic to have to pay $2 to charge for a half hour on L2 at 3.3kWh. So by following the rules you could top off with 1.6kWh for $2 and go an extra 4-6 miles... Yippee

Nice job not using logic in setting their parking time limit while charging rules.

 

[DKUVA]

Somehow I doubt if you are paying them for charging that they would enforce a 30 minute limit . . .

 

[Phoenix]

The Walgreens near Lake Merritt, Oakland, CA at the corner of E. 18th and 3rd Ave. is still free this month. Come out and support them--jog around the lake and visit the shops in the vicinity. Bustling Farmers Market on Saturdays till 2PM.

 

[aventineavenue]

FYI - it appears that 350Green is/was having some financial trouble, thus probably the reason for starting the $2 fee to charge at Wlagreens and other places...still ridiculous, and alienating their customer/constituents!
https://350green.com/2012/06/statement-chicago-electric-car-charging-project/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-Mark

 

[Herm]

Very hard to charge for something that you gave away for free previously. If you gave it away for free it must not have cost much to being with, so why are you ripping us off now?

Its well known not all humans are perfect

 

[EricBayArea]

I find it odd that there are so many corporate layers to get charging at Walgreens. What I mean by this is, you have 350Green that is taking a cut, then you have Coulomb who is taking a cut. You would think that Walgreens could just go to Coulomb and have them put in the charging stations, pay them a monthly fee and be done with it.

Or, better yet, Walgreens can just buy stand-alone Coulomb/Clipper Creek/AV/etc. and not have to pay anyone anything.

I have yet to use a Walgreens charger but I did start using Walgreens more than my local RiteAid because they were offering charging. At $2/hr I'm torn. If it were $1/hr I'd be more inclined to use them when I'm out and about. But the 30min. rule (which I doubt will be enforced) is absurd - Unless it's a L3 unit.

 

[09Bamb00]

The Walgreens near Tampa have always had a $2.40/kHw charge.

 

[davewill]

The Walgreens near Tampa have always had a $2.40/kHw charge.

Are you sure about that price? Even with the LEAF's slow charger, that rate would add up to nearly $8 per hour. I'm thinking it's $2.40 per hour, not per kWh.

 

[09Bamb00]

OOPs!!

 

[aventineavenue]

I got a reply/explanation almost immediately from 350Green:

"Dear Mark,

Thanks for your feedback.

Our charging stations used to be free to fuel for almost a year, unfortunately EV drivers started abusing the system stations and parking overnight using retail locations like their home charging stations. Retail partners were not very happy and we had to turn the payment option on.

350Green is not allowed to charge by KW and we have set the price to accommodate every EV. When a Ford Focus EV is using a Level 2 station drawing 6.6 KWh, it comes out to 30cents per KW. Add to this installation and equipment amortization cost and $2 per hour is a reasonable charge. Retail level 2 installation can run $10K-$15K, plus revenue share to retailers, electricity demand charges and network fees. I have checked our competitors pricing: Car Charging Group is charging $2.40 per hour and Ecotality $2/hour for non subscribers and $1 for subscribers.

I agree with your comment on the fast charging sessions. What we have tried to do is create interoperability between all of our station providers: not a small undertaking, it took cell phone industry years. All stations will eventually be on Coulomb's network and will have the same capabilities of managing driver account, making reservations and a phone app. It takes time for manufacturers to come to an agreement.

Sending an email is a simple solution that will make it easy for drivers and I will go back to the manufacturer and check if they can accommodate.

I'll get back to you with the answer.

Thanks again

Mariana
350Green"

So it seems for legal reasons (they are not a Utility) they can only receive payment for time and not kWh, so they chose to charge a rate that would only be reasonable if you could charge for a full hour at 6.6 kW/h, which right now is only a Ford Focus EV or a Tesla (current Volt and Leaf models charge at 3.3 kW/h)

I am not satisfied with their answer and recommend boycotting these stations. If "parking overnight" and "Retail partners were not very happy" was really the issue, then it should have been handling by signage and/or parking enforcement. As for using the installation cost and other fees to justify the hourly fee, I'm not buying that either. I believe most of the stations were paid at least in part by governments grants with the intention of spurring public use of EVs, not discouraging them by price gouging. Also, if the government did assist in them, it is a value added item that will draw customers to the venue, so the government should take issue with the fees that hamper the intended purpose and greater benefit the business rather than the EV consumer.

-Mark S.

 

[aventineavenue]

For the technically or financially curious, their "33 cents a kilowatt" best case charging scenario equates to paying approximately $3.30 a gallon if you have a Focus or Tesla, or $6.60 a gallon if you a a Volt or Leaf. So it sounds more like they are actually trying to price compete with gasoline and not doing it for the reasons stated. Whatever the reason, it's lousy "business" and we should continue to let them know.

Data/Assumptions: 33 cents per kW/4 kW per mile=8.25 cents/mile; Assume "gas" car get 40 mpg (my last one did) * 8.25 cents=$3.30

 

[grommet]

The "abuse" comment is just BS and an attempt to redirect blame. It was always the plan to bill for usage.

FYI: They can charge per kWh in certain states (like CA - yes, it's legal)... but there has been little interest in doing this by any L2 host.

IMHO, direct for-profit L2 charging is doomed, much like for-profit Wi-Fi. It's very possible 350Green sold Walgreens on this project based on that it could be a direct profit source... (Coulomb spins it the same way.) If so, good luck. FYI: Yes, I still avoid Walgreens, and their 30 minute parking spots. ;-)

Anyway, Coulomb is brilliant in this scenario as the 'platform' provider... collecting monthly network access fees, ~$.50 per session... plus ~7.5% of the fees. (FYI: This could be wrong; I have no idea if 350Green negotiated a "different" deal than I've seen with most owners.)

 

[DaveEV]

So it seems for legal reasons (they are not a Utility) they can only receive payment for time and not kWh

In California they can charge by the kWh if they want. In other states - probably not.

Guys - public charging is going to cost money. $2/hour is a reasonable cost, even for the LEAF. Please do not compare it to driving the Prius. Do I wish it were free? Yeah! But face it - most businesses aren't going to spend $15k to install a station without some expectation of getting at least some of that money back. And for a business - hogging a prime parking spot for hours and hours costs them money!

Nissan dealers have had similar issues with people abusing their free stations. Face it - if you give something away for free - people will abuse the privilege.

 

[KJD]

Nissan dealers have had similar issues with people abusing their free stations. Face it - if you give something away for free - people will abuse the privilege.

I would agree that there has to be a charge for the service, the issue is how much to charge.

The cost should be enough so that people will not abuse it as you say. It should also be LOW enough that people will not drive the gas guzzler instead.

When the average cost of electricity is 12 cents per kwh, the cost should be around 1 dollar per hour. At 2 dollars per hour YOU might pay it, but most people will be driving their "other" car.

 

[jpa2825]

I still think the link to retail is the key. How 'bout for every $10 you spend at Walgreens, you get a code to enter for X minutes free charging at that location? Either make the code something you can enter at the end of the charge to deduct from the charge OR allow the code to be entered via SmartPhone or www once home. Code from receipt should be able to match to the charge at the same store around the same time to generate the reimbursement to your account.

Works basically like validating parking at a store in an area where they charge to park. It also shows the retailers there is benefit to their EV support.

 

[DaveEV]

When the average cost of electricity is 12 cents per kwh, the cost should be around 1 dollar per hour. At 2 dollars per hour YOU might pay it, but most people will be driving their "other" car.

The key is - how long do you expect to make a return in your investment? At a cost of $10k+ to install a public L2 EVSE and your margin is ~$0.15-$0.50 (depending on whether the car charges at 16A or 30A), you're never going to get an ROI.

When you compare the incremental cost of charging at home (the cost of electricity) to the cost of charging in public, you are completely ignoring the fact that most spend quite a bit of money to get the convenience of L2 charging at home (typically $1000-$2000). But no-one ever includes those costs in their pricing.

Heck - look at the cost of the DCQC port (when it was an option). $700 for something the typical LEAF owner will use perhaps a couple times a month. A $7-15 charge to QC is only 1-2% of what you've already paid.

As more charging stations go in, prices will have to fall as companies compete for your charging business. But at this stage of the game you're lucky if you can find one in a convenient location (IE, less than a 1/4 mi of your destination).

So prepare yourself for paid charging. And pay for it. Because if these early companies don't get even half of their ROI on their investment, you're won't see many more of these charging stations go in.

 

[GRA]

When the average cost of electricity is 12 cents per kwh, the cost should be around 1 dollar per hour. At 2 dollars per hour YOU might pay it, but most people will be driving their "other" car.

The key is - how long do you expect to make a return in your investment? At a cost of $10k+ to install a public L2 EVSE and your margin is ~$0.15-$0.50 (depending on whether the car charges at 16A or 30A), you're never going to get an ROI.

When you compare the incremental cost of charging at home (the cost of electricity) to the cost of charging in public, you are completely ignoring the fact that most spend quite a bit of money to get the convenience of L2 charging at home (typically $1000-$2000). But no-one ever includes those costs in their pricing.

Heck - look at the cost of the DCQC port (when it was an option). $700 for something the typical LEAF owner will use perhaps a couple times a month. A $7-15 charge to QC is only 1-2% of what you've already paid.

As more charging stations go in, prices will have to fall as companies compete for your charging business. But at this stage of the game you're lucky if you can find one in a convenient location (IE, less than a 1/4 mi of your destination).

So prepare yourself for paid charging. And pay for it. Because if these early companies don't get even half of their ROI on their investment, you're won't see many more of these charging stations go in.

One of the things being ignored in the discussion of ROI is advertising, or rather the decrease in same if you provide a service that other retailers don't. For instance, 'free' parking. In a ground level lot, a parking space typically costs $1-2,000, paved and striped (and no lights or landscaping). A multi-story parking garage costs a whole lot more - I'm not sure what was included in the total, but one source claimed up to $45,000/space. Building/mall owners provide this to attract customers, as it lowers their advertising cost per customer. Of course, once all your competitors are doing the same thing it's just an additional cost that gets passed on through to the customer.

That being said, I've never understood how a viable business model could be constructed for pay L2 charging at a short-duration stop like a drug store. No one local will bother, and anyone from out of town needs longer charging.

 

[klapauzius]

That being said, I've never understood how a viable business model could be constructed for pay L2 charging at a short-duration stop like a drug store. No one local will bother, and anyone from out of town needs longer charging.

+1

The only place were I can imagine that L2 makes sense would be hotels or motels or places where you stay overnight..or maybe at least 4h.
I never found any use for the gazillion L2 chargers in 10 mile radius around my home and if I want to go further, L3 would be needed.

This might change with 6.6 kW (or more powerful) onboard chargers that take J1772?
How much can L2 provide?
At 6.6 kW or maybe 9.9 or even 13.2 kW, this might be a viable alternative to L3. Is 32 Amps the limit on the current generation of public L2 chargers? If not, maybe what appears to be folly now might turn out to be savvy in the long term?