Battery degradation anxiety

[DaveinOlyWA]

i have never seen a battery capacity warranty. now there are battery warranties for failure which is usually a pro rated replacement cost after a certain time period which is usually 1-2 years and that is basically what Nissan has implied. granted, specifics would be nice but obviously specifics involving costs is not possible

i had my Zenn batteries replaced under warranty due to failure to provide a "usable" charge and it was really based on loss of capacity. but really only time will tell.

there is no doubt going to be people seeing significant loss of range within 2 years but i personally dont think that is the case with most of us. lets put this thread to rest and resurrect it in say...June 1, 2012 when a few of us will be pushing 15,000-20,000 miles and see what the range is running then.

it does make me want to go out and run the car at a steady speed until its on it 2nd low battery warning just to get a baseline.

 

[LEAFfan]

Sure, they have said things like "80% capacity remaining at 5 years" but this is not covered in the warranty. If it turns out to be 6% per year, or 8% per year, that is still fairly "gradual", and thus presumably won't be covered by the warranty.

6-8%? That is in no way a gradual loss and I'll bet my bottom dollar that if you take your car in after one year and it has this kind of loss, they will replace the modules that are defective, no doubt about it. The consensus is that after ten years/100,000m, the battery will have a loss of 20-30% depending on its care. So that is a 2-3% yearly loss of capacity which wouldn't be covered and would be gradual/normal.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Also, their refusal to warranty the battery capacity tells us something.

I leased so no worries about the battery pack. But Nissan DID give us a battery capacity warranty. Loss of capacity is covered EXCEPT for gradual capacity loss, which is NORMAL. So if your battery pack loses more capacity than what is normal, it will be covered. I really don't see a problem with the warranty and why people can't read what is in writing.

Wow, do you really believe that is a warranty? Gradual could be 15% a year. As I have said before, some people are going to be very upset based on assumptions, wishful thinking and a bit of denial.

 

[Stoaty]

6-8%? That is in no way a gradual loss and I'll bet my bottom dollar that if you take your car in after one year and it has this kind of loss, they will replace the modules that are defective, no doubt about it.

Not gradual to you and me, but to Nissan? If they are offering a warranty against this kind of loss, why don't they have it in writing?

The consensus is that after ten years/100,000m, the battery will have a loss of 20-30% depending on its care. So that is a 2-3% yearly loss of capacity which wouldn't be covered and would be gradual/normal.

I would love to see a reliable reference for that (and I am not talking about what Nissan said in a vague statement 1-2 years ago).

 

[LEAFfan]

Wow, do you really believe that is a warranty? Gradual could be 15% a year. As I have said before, some people are going to be very upset based on assumptions, wishful thinking and a bit of denial.

Wow! Do you really believe that 15% a year is 'gradual'? I do believe you are way over exaggerating and aren't using some common sense.

 

[LEAFfan]

All of you worriers, skeptics, etc. will find out that this is all to do about nothing. If I had bought, I wouldn't give this degradation idea any thought.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i expect about 30% after 10 years but do not expect it to be a linear loss. i expect the greatest loss to happen at the beginning and the end of the battery life. we wont see the end of life, but i expect around 5% or so loss the first year then a few years where loss of range will not be easily noticeable.

batteries tend to run that way and i dont expect these batteries to be any different.

 

[planet4ever]

Wow! Do you really believe that 15% a year is 'gradual'? I do believe you are way over exaggerating and aren't using some common sense.

And you, LEAFfan, need to look up "gradual" in the dictionary. It does not mean "slow". More like "steady". Since the warranty says "not gradual", you should interpret it in terms of the opposite of gradual, which is "sudden" or "abrupt". 15% loss in a year is not sudden. 15% loss between one charge and the next charge is sudden. That is what Nissan covers.

Ray

 

[LEAFfan]

Wow! Do you really believe that 15% a year is 'gradual'? I do believe you are way over exaggerating and aren't using some common sense.

And you, LEAFfan, need to look up "gradual" in the dictionary. It does not mean "slow". More like "steady". Since the warranty says "not gradual", you should interpret it in terms of the opposite of gradual, which is "sudden" or "abrupt". 15% loss in a year is not sudden. 15% loss between one charge and the next charge is sudden. That is what Nissan covers.
Ray

Depends on what dictionary you use. I don't believe that for a minute. You can believe whatever you want, worry, have anxiety attacks, etc., but in the end, you will understand that you are worried about nothing. Time will tell.
If you really believe that 15% loss in one year is gradual, then call or email Nissan's Sr. VP of Marketing and Sales (Brian Carolin) and if he says that would be considered a 'gradual' loss in one year, I will accept it. Otherwise, you're just over worried.

 

[Stoaty]

From dictionary.com definition of gradual:

1. taking place, changing, moving, etc., by small degrees or little by little: gradual improvement in health.
2. rising or descending at an even, moderate inclination: a gradual slope.

It sounds like 15% over a year can be gradual, as long as it happens a just a bit every week.
Nissan may indeed say that isn't gradual when asked; the problem is that there is nothing in the written warranty that binds them to any specific capacity loss.

PS I am not worried about the battery or the warranty, but the warranty doesn't say anything about covering loss of capacity which isn't sudden. That leaves a lot of wiggle room for Nissan. I am pretty sure if the capacity loss is due to one module going bad (compared to the rest) that Nissan will replace it. No one is saying Nissan won't step up to the plate, but there is nothing legallly obligating them to do so as long as the capacity loss is "gradual".

 

[UkrainianKozak]

My battery degradation anxiety is actually goes down with time...
I do expect it, but with every month of Leaf ownership and close to $200 savings on gas alone (plus cheaper less frequent service, supposedly). The more I save, the less I worry about degradation!
In my 5 month of ownership I haven't noticed any decrease in capacity, and I would notice lets say 5%, so degradation should be less then 1% a month, and with more months not noticing it, it will be even less...
The only really negative thought I have is I'm missing mere 20-30% of capacity to make leaf the choice for 99% of my trips... with current range it covers about 70% of my driving needs... and trips to most of our camping grounds/ some hiking trails and ski areas is just 30-40 miles shy of leaf capacity...

 

[scottf200]

But Nissan DID give us a battery capacity warranty. Loss of capacity is covered EXCEPT for gradual capacity loss, which is NORMAL. So if your battery pack loses more capacity than what is normal, it will be covered. I really don't see a problem with the warranty and why people can't read what is in writing.

The problem with this way of looking at things: Nissan either doesn't know (or isn't saying) exactly how much on average the "normal" gradual loss will be. Sure, they have said things like "80% capacity remaining at 5 years" but this is not covered in the warranty. If it turns out to be 6% per year, or 8% per year, that is still fairly "gradual", and thus presumably won't be covered by the warranty.

With all that said, I am not too worried, because if the batteries degrade too quickly and Nissan doesn't cover it they will have a black eye and no one will want to buy a Leaf in the future. I think this limits the risk for the early adopters to some extent. Time will tell.

While they do say 80% and five years they also put in language in the manual that it could be "significantly lower".

Cut-n-pasted LEAF MANUAL text:

The capacity of the Li-ion battery in your vehicle to hold a charge will, like all such batteries, decrease with time and usage. As the battery ages and capacity decreases, this will result in a decrease from the vehicle’s initial mileage range. This is normal, expected, and not indicative of any defect in your Li-ion battery. NISSAN estimates that battery capacity will be approximately 80% of original capacity after five years, although this is only an estimate, and this percentage may vary (and could be significantly lower) depending on individual vehicle and Li-ion battery usage.

Personally, I hope the LEAF batteries do well because I dread the media reports when/if they start "failing" or dropping significantly where LEAF owners are not able to the car as they originally hoped (ie. their normal driving patterns for work and play).

As well I'm concerned with EV car leasers in general because they don't really need to worry about how they treat the battery (100% charges, QCs, etc). I'm worried about the folks that buy the once leased vehicle and they see the drops in battery life. Perhaps Nissan will intervene on leased vehicles and test/upgrade those batteries before they get on to the 2nd owners.

I'm hoping for the best here but fearing the worse. The media can be brutal as well all know ... sensationalizing stories and headlines, etc.

 

[planet4ever]

Depends on what dictionary you use. I don't believe that for a minute. You can believe whatever you want, worry, have anxiety attacks, etc., but in the end, you will understand that you are worried about nothing.

Like Stoaty, I'm not worried; just trying to be realistic. Do you have a dictionary that says the opposite of gradual is something other than sudden or abrupt?

Ray

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

In a few short months we will have quite a nice network of DC quick charging. I'm very curious to see how that plays into the equation. It might bump us from 80% to 90% Leaf. 70-80% coverage without even having a charging network in place is well beyond anything I would have expected before ownership.

My battery degradation anxiety is actually goes down with time...
I do expect it, but with every month of Leaf ownership and close to $200 savings on gas alone (plus cheaper less frequent service, supposedly). The more I save, the less I worry about degradation!
In my 5 month of ownership I haven't noticed any decrease in capacity, and I would notice lets say 5%, so degradation should be less then 1% a month, and with more months not noticing it, it will be even less...
The only really negative thought I have is I'm missing mere 20-30% of capacity to make leaf the choice for 99% of my trips... with current range it covers about 70% of my driving needs... and trips to most of our camping grounds/ some hiking trails and ski areas is just 30-40 miles shy of leaf capacity...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

one thing i realized today and that is an accurate measurement of degradation will be extremely difficult to measure. this was todays driving with no freeway. not hypermiling or driving around the block (except for last 5 miles or so) just in town errand stuff which Nissan says should be 138 miles.

now, i can only say that the gauge is way off (but that i had already suspected) or i have lost a good 10% already. i venture to think its the former.

now i got the first low battery warning on the way home from dinner. normally i would have charged a bit during the day but skipped it this time since i knew i would still make it and wondered how far i could get. well dropped off the brood and drove around wanting to go to turtle but got tired of it and 6 PM traffic is still a bit too heavy to drive around in my neighborhood so parked it. but averaged 5.7 miles/Kwh so that is only 17.2 KW used if the car can be trusted.

low warning came on at 93.1 miles on odometer, 9 miles on range estimate.

 

[Blackhouse]

I'm purchasing my Leaf and I'm anticipating a decline over time but I'm hoping it's not too much. My commute is 30 miles rt and on occasion, I'll drive 50-60 miles total. Our second car is a Prius, so it will be used for longer trips. According to my chart, I should be able to complete my 30 mile rt commute until I have about 50% capacity left. I would love to give the Leaf to my daughter for her first car in 9 years. My wife likes the idea of our daughter not needing gas money and having a limited range, enough to get to school and back, work and back although public charging may be prevalent by then. I wanted to get a rough idea if I could commute in it for 9 years then give it to my daughter and it still have some adequate range left. I'm really hoping in 10 years I will still have 60% capacity although 50-40% may be enough. If this works out, it will have been a great investment.

Range in Miles
Year Capacity max avg min
1 100% 100 75 50
5 80% 80 60 40
? 60% 60 45 30
? 40% 40 30 20
? 20% 20 15 10

 

[surfingslovak]

My hope is nissan will be smart by offering a battery refresh program. We are all walking in the snow backwards... this is ground breaking... we are really in an real-world beta program. I hope nissan nurtures their customers.

Me too! Charles Whalen, a veteran EV1 and RAV4 EV driver, summed this up very eloquently over on the Volt forum. All we can hope is that Nissan gets it and that they will find a way to engage early adopters, and solicit their feedback. They are already getting our data from Carwings, let's hope that there will be another level of communication.

You kinda have to take a step back and look at the longer term perspective here and realize that we are in the very, very early developmental stage of lithium-powered EVs. By buying a first-model-year Volt (or a first-model-year Leaf, for that matter), you have to understand and accept that as a very early adopter, the bargain you are making, and the adventure that you are willingly undertaking, is to basically be an extended beta tester for the avant-garde, technologically-leading-edge automakers (principally GM, Tesla, and Nissan) in their early developmental process of their first-generation lithium-powered EVs and to assist them in their ongoing learning process in that regard. This is a very exciting time and that is an exciting role to play, but you also have to understand and be willing to accept some of the risks and responsibilities that come with that. These three leading-edge automakers are taking enormous risks by doing this and making these second-generation EVs, with commercial intent and commitment this time, on this second go-round, but without a demonstrated, proven market for them; and we early adopters have to likewise be a partner with them and be willing to take a few (much smaller in comparison) risks on our end too. It’s very much a shared-risk and shared-adventure partnership in that regard. Above all, it really properly requires a highly-educated and technically-savvy early-adopter customer to undertake this role, so that you go into it with your eyes wide open, well informed on the various infancy issues that you might face and have to deal with, and that indeed, you should have some flexibility, creativity, and resourcefulness to occasionally adapt a few workarounds (or “hacks”) when needed, to deal with such “teething” issues.

 

[highcountryrider]

It would seem to me that batteries should get cheaper and better with time. I think it likely
that a replacement pack might be an attractive option in 5-8 years. But, then, I might be
fill of s**t.

 

[TRONZ]

It would seem to me that batteries should get cheaper and better with time. I think it likely
that a replacement pack might be an attractive option in 5-8 years. But, then, I might be
fill of s**t.

Can you just imagine what gas will cost in 5-8 years???

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It would seem to me that batteries should get cheaper and better with time. I think it likely
that a replacement pack might be an attractive option in 5-8 years. But, then, I might be
fill of s**t.

Can you just imagine what gas will cost in 5-8 years???

i am trying not to. just gassed up the Prius yesterday and gas was 12 cents a gallon higher. first significant increase since early summer. last time i paid this much was Jun 9th